Best batsman under pressure.

This is one of the area which according to few experts guarantees the value of a batsman in the team.

How good a finisher you are?

For long Sachin has been criticised for not playing under pressure and performing when it mattered. Some also says that Sachin's winnability is not very good (scoring a ton resulting in a win for the team).

Today we will have a lok at some of the greatest batsmen and their performances in the 4th innings of a test as compared to 1-2-3 innings.

Don Bradman's average was 99.94 and his avg in 4th innings was around 70. Approx 30 runs short of the career average. It will not be fair to compare Sir Don here as he belongs to his own league. Sir Don also scored a score of 173 in the final innings which is quite a high score anyway!

Sunil Gavaskar surprisingly has a higher 4th innings avg as compared to his overall average, I think the only batsman (other than Sir Don) to have 4th innings avg in 50s. Did Gavaskar win lots of macthes for India? Perhaps so, the best thing about Sunny was that he had a solid compact technique. People might remember him for his 36* in the first ever ODI for India but in tests Sunny was a nightmare to bowlers. I did not see him bat that much but what I know of that he wsa capable of scoring fast and decimating bowling attacks.

Ponting too have a good 4th innings avg, only 4 runs short of his overall avg. After going thru the stats there is one factor which helped Ponting immensley was the opening partnership of Hayden and Langer at the top. Ponting scoring big was mostly helped by either of those guys. And Ponting was part of winning team which released the pressure too.

Kallis is considered to be one of the greats. Although he is not as famous as Sachin but he is the most valued cricketer and SA lucky to have him. Kallis as a batsman have nearly 19-20 runs of difference between the 2 innings runs.


Lara too struggles in the 4th innings but he gets nod ahead of tendular owing to his 155 (match winning ) against Australia. Lara also has approx 20 runs of difference between the avg of two innings.

Sachin has always been criticsed for not showing enough fight specially in the crunch situations. His 136 against Pakistan at Chennai is regraded as a failure, he gets the blame for that loss. Sachin is the highest run getter in chasing situations. He has played 53 final innings (which could be record as well). He scored a century in winning cause against England in chasing a target. He has scored 3 centuries only Bradman, Gavaskar has scored more ( think 4) it is.

Does Sachin lose his tag of greatness because he does not have the same or similar record in 4th inninngs if compared to Ponting?

Obviously it would be better if Sachin had a higher average in the fourth inninngs, but it isn't the be all and end all! His weight of runs and longevity still make him a great of the game.

And is runs in the fourth innings really the only way to measure ability under pressure? I look at Paul Collingwood here, who's most famous innings were all back to the wall efforts but not necessarily in the final innings of the game so just because you don't have a huge last innings average doesn't mean you haven't scored runs under pressure.

JD - I'm completely with you and my old friend Keith Miller on this.

It's not all to do with performances in the 4th innings. Coming in and coping at number six with your side at 30 - 4 after an hour's play on the first morning of a test is far more a proper challenge and examination.

Those who have passed that sort of exam include Paul Collingwood (as you say), Larry Gomes (see my comments shooting Mike Selig down in flames on the ''Current England team in 5 best ever test teams in history'' thread) and, for older readers, Alan Knott.

What's Miller got to do with this, you ask. Besides being the world's second greatest ever all rounder, Miller was a decorated airforce pilot in the second world war and refused to believe that ''pressure'' had any relevance to cricket.

In Keith Miller's words: ''Pressure, I'll tell you what pressure is. Pressure is having a Messerschmitt up your arse, playing cricket is not.''

guildfordbat wrote:In Keith Miller's words: ''Pressure, I'll tell you what pressure is. Pressure is having a Messerschmitt up your arse, playing cricket is not.''

I have never heard that quote before and it is an absolute cracker!

What you and Keith say its completely true. Take the Aus-SA match at the moment, if Michael Clarke scoring 150 out of 270 on that pitch isn't doing it under pressure, nothing is! Of course it is all relative, being a fighter pilot is a tad more stressful!

It does make me wonder occasionally if less gifted players are forced to have more natural strength. Take Colly and Ian Bell, I would imagine that Colly had to fight his way into the Test side whereas Bell would have been handed everything on a plate due to his silky technique and when he got to the level where having a technique alone was no longer enough, he was found out for a while? Whereas Colly would always have had to fight for his place due to having the least aesthetically pleasing technique in world cricket and therefore is more mentally tough? For Colly, see Cook aswell.

And second best all rounder of all time? Behind Eddie Barlow I assume...

JDizzle wrote:
It does make me wonder occasionally if less gifted players are forced to have more natural strength.

JD - you show wisdom beyond your years. Perhaps more of Eddie's magic has rubbed off on you than you realised.

I have said before (and will no doubt say it again) that Larry Gomes was very much the straightman to the West Indian batting entertainers of the very late 1970s and through the 1980s. He was nowhere near as talented as those like Greenidge, Haynes, Richards and Lloyd. However, on the few occasions that these world greats all failed, Gomes could be relied upon to dig in and get his side out of trouble. He didn't always play that much of a part because he wasn't often required to do so. However, when he was needed he could be relied upon to play a vital and selfless role. Not the greatest talent but the greatest of attitudes. A much underrated figure in the Windies' success during this period.

Yes, a belter of a quote from Miller. He said it to Michael Parkinson who was asking him about the pressure of playing test cricket.

As for the world's best all rounder, I was actually referring to Sobers. I think the modest Eddie would happily settle for a top ten place ....

VVS

Stan McCabe

Allan Border

Allan Border does not fit the criteria from any point of view. As a batsman he only had one significant record that he was the first to cross 11,000 runs mark and once the highest rungetter in cricket.

His 4th innings avg is 34 nearly 16 less than his overall avg.

Even Sobers has 11 runs difference in his 4th innings and overall average. He too only socred 2 centuries in 4th innings. For all greats, it has been real tough to perfrom in the 4th innings as a result of various factors such as deteriorating pitch, pressure and bowling attacks.

VVS too has higher 4th innings average and in the recent matches he has shown good run of form in finishing the matches. He also has the distinction of playing one of the epic innings in test cricket 281 v Australia at Eden Garden 2001 however Laxman has a poor record in England and slightly inconsistent in his performances. His lack of runs oin first innings can be attributed to his batting position in the team.
I will still place Sachin above Laxman. Gilly was also one of the batsman who rarely got affected by the pressure.

Stan McCabe averaged 66 in the 4th innings.

Stan Mccabe did not play that much cricket, he only played 38 tests but he does have an astonishing avg of 66 in 4th innings and probably the highest score 189* as well.

4th innings average of those who've scored 500+ runs in the 4th innings.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=500;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting

Some, perhaps, surprising names at the top
Bruce Mitchell
Jeff Stollymeyer
Mike Hussey
Conrad Hunte
Geoff Boycott

Thanks Hoggy, it seems that Gavaskar holds the record for highest score in 4th innings. Actually 3rd innings also become crucial if pressure is the criteria as Laxman's 281 was in the 3rd innings and those were made under immense pressure.

Quite a surprise to see Boycott above Gavaskar there

Haha, cheers Guildford! I think every side needs that glue that sticks it together who is possibly less unsung than other players. Australia in the 1990's and 2000's always had a Steve Waugh in the middle order to dig the out of trouble, or even Damien Martyn could be classed as the man who wasn't as flashy as others but could be relied on in a crisis. And for the latter end of their reign as the dominant side in World cricket it was Mike Hussey. You have obviously highlighted Gomes in the West Indies who had that role, and is is quite clear that all really great sides needs someone to be able to do this. Jonathon Trott is becoming this man for England at the moment.

Yeah, I suppose Sobers was an alright cricketer aswell. I will let you off!

for me its VVS. He is so reliable in the 4th innings of a match, when in form obviosuly lol

Third inning is as critical as the fourth.

When I tweaked Hoggy's analysis to include 3rd and 4th, and raised to qualification to 1000 runs, here is how the list looks.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=3;innings_number=4;orderby=batting_average;qualmin2=1000;qualval2=runs;template=results;type=batting

Laxman averages 50. There is another guy by name Amarnath, who interestingly, scored most of his runs on tour and in the 3rd and 4th innings.

Nice to see Boycott's name showing up even here.

Among current test cricketers, Kallis is THE MAN for 3rd and 4th innings. Let's see if he lives up to his reputation tomorrow.

Interesting thread. I am guessing that in some cases playing in a dominant team will have affected the stats - reducing the need/opportunity to play long innings...

Thanks Leff, good stats gathering Amarnath is considered to be bravest cricketer in Indian cricket history. He never wore a halmet ( I think not sure) even when playing against the fast bowlers of West Indies, till date he can be considered as the best hooker of the ball from Indian cricketers. Like Gavaskar his best too came out against WI and those days WI were invincible.

Good to see Sachin in that list too and he is the highest run getter in this category too albeit avg is slightly less than others. Kallis like I said is an unsung hero (sort of), he does not have the same kind of flair like Sachin or Gavaskar but he has been doing the job for SA like a workhorse.

I think Kallis can be termed as greatest allrounder of cricket ahead of SObers.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Interesting thread. I am guessing that in some cases playing in a dominant team will have affected the stats - reducing the need/opportunity to play long innings...

cheers corp!

I think one for the future for this will be Jos Buttler, in one day games the last 2 seasons plenty of times Somerset were in the brown stuff and it was left to Buttler to do the job and he would see us home more often then not

I looked up Amarnath's stats on Cricinfo. His numbers are fascinating, indeed, and quite exceptional for an Indian cricketer of that era.

His batting averages were:

home 30, away 52
1&2 innings - 39, 3&4 innings - 49
in Aus 57, in WI 55, in India 30

Did you watch him play? Amarnath could have played longer for India had it not been for his teef with the selection board. He called the selection committe ' bunch of jokers' and paid the price by being forced into retirement. Amarnath was also man of the series in the world cup win of 1983.

I didn't see Amarnath in action. I followed results of the 1983 WC, but didn't see it live.

The first test series I watched was this one and those WI bowlers were the greatest:
http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Series/SeriesStats.asp?SeriesCode=0258

That Old Trafford match was the first test match that I watched from the stands. I was very young then.

Leff, David Gower was the captain of English Team then and they lost 10 matches in row against West Indies and he lost one more against India in the following series at home and got sacked. I think Gatting took over from him and revived the fortunes of Englad team.

Gower holds the dubious record for being worst captain, he won 5 and lost 18!
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/13418.html?captain=1;class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=4;orderby=start;result=2;template=results;type=allround;view=innings

If I recall correctly, Gatting also had a losing record as England's skipper although not as bad as Gower's or Beefy's (no win in 12 tests).

Gower's tenure was during an era where WI never lost a series and they were especially brutal on England.

Graeme Smith. Commentators mentioned today that he has the highest average of a 4th innings SUCCESSFUL run chase. Ever. Personally as a Proteas fan I always feel we in with a shout if he's still there, no matter how big the chase.

KingProtea wrote:Graeme Smith. Commentators mentioned today that he has the highest average of a 4th innings SUCCESSFUL run chase. Ever. Personally as a Proteas fan I always feel we in with a shout if he's still there, no matter how big the chase.

Amongst current players, he wont be leading the all time list. Half of the credit goes to Amla too, He has stablised this fargile SA line up. SA does fine till Kallis, the probelm is that youngstres havn't taken the baton from veterans and there could be similar void like cureent aussie team. I think this could be Ponting's last series.

The word "talent" is a funny one. Everyone knows what it means, but it doesn't mean anything. By that, I mean we usually mean by "talent" your natural ability, i.e. what you're born with.

There are two issues with this: first of all, some serious studies show that what you're born with makes incredibly little difference (some studies suggest it makes no difference whatsoever). Secondly, if it does, then surely the ability to fight it out, "guts", mental strength, etc. are also to some extent innate, and hence also "talents".

My point is I often feel we use the word "talent" when really what we mean is "elegance", or "style".

This is a totally unapologetic diversion off-topic.

On-topic: ponting has scored a few tons in last innings chases hasn't he? I can recall at least two against SA (one at Sydney, one in SA, both around his peak say 07?). Hussey is someone I've always associated with doing well under pressure. But then so is Kallis so impressions can be misleading...

Among current test cricketers, there are 11 players that average 45 or above in their team's second inning (3rd and 4th of the match):

In order

1. Kallis
2. Sanga
3. Laxman
4. Younis Khan
5. Amla
6. Gambir
7. Clarke
8. G Smith
9. Cook
10. Hussey
11. Tendulkar

KP missed the cut by 1 run!

Don't think 4th innings runs are the only indicater of pressure. For me, if India is in a huge crisis, I would want VVS to be there. Tendulkar and Dravid have done well for India in dificult situations. But they at times go into a shel, and struggle to get out of it. But VVS plays a very positive game, in such situations, and that's why he has become India's official crisis man.
Jacques Kallis, Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Graeme Smith, are some others for the list.

VVS is always the guy i would want batting for me under pressure, he is so calm and influstered at the crease.

Batting under pressure doesn't necessarily mean batting in your second innings.
Coming in at 4-2 on the first day is pressure.
Javed Miandad Steve Waugh are two batsmen that spring to mind when I think pressure.

i never said it did, did i......

cricketfan90 wrote:i never said it did, did i......

I wasn't referring to you?

ah my mistake seemed like u did

Stella wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:i never said it did, did i......

I wasn't referring to you?

lol

cricketfan90 wrote:ah my mistake seemed like u did

Glad VVS got mentions. Time and again he's made runs when it matters. Good that he's still going strong and enhancing his reputation. Why do so many consider Gatting a good captain ? Some are amazed when told he only won TWO TESTS as skipper. They happened to be away to Australia and he won the Ashes. That was no mean feat, but Australia had a fairly weak team at the time and that was to be the last time Gatting was succesful.

Amazing how people often only remember the highs when assessing the tenure of Gatting, isn't it? He did something that not many English captains have done, I guess, and presumably that leads to his otherwise unsatisfactory record being swept under the carpet somewhat.

Well at least Strauss has taken from Gatting that tag of being the last England captain to win the Ashes Down Under. Have to say that the Aussies were even weaker in 2010/11 than in 1986/87. Posted a year or so again saying that Australia don't have weak teams - just teams that are not as strong as normal.
Now I'm not so certain. I think the current crop are weak - and possibly the weakest for many years. Oh dear, have gone rather off topic.

The best I have seen are Border, the hugely underrated Flower, Miandad, VVS, Dravid, Jayawardene, Hussey.