Matt Prior - Best Wicketkeeper/Batsman? really?

There have been a few people (all English) after the Lords Test claiming that Matt Prior is indeed the best wicketkeeper/batsman in the World.

On the Cricket show last night on five live, Tuffers and Vaughan both thought he was 'streets' ahead of anyone else.

Well I dont agree. And Im sure that MS Dhoni and Brad Haddin will have something to say about it too....

he's not far off it..

dhoni's keeping and footwork was awful in the first test

In tests at the moment I reckon he is the best. As good a 'keeper as either Haddin or Dhoni and a better batsman

I would say he's the best in tests at the moment. In terms of batting, his average is at least 5 runs above the next best, which is clearly a huge gap.

Dhoni and Haddin are undeniably better at the shorter formats though.

In tests he is streets ahead.
In limited overs he doesnt get picked for England for a reason, hes never produced...although it ,ay be time to gve him another chance. But I cant magine him ever matching Dhoni or Sangakarra in ODIs

Hes certainly a better keeper than Dohni and Haddin. Arguably Mccullum too.
Batting wise...show me another player (let alone a keeper) whos scored 3 centuries and 2 fifties in their last 4 tests, all against top 5 opponents. One of those centuries was the fatest one sored by and Englishman for 30 years...which brings up anothe rpoint, hes often asked to throw his wiket away. His strike rate is very high for tests, which makes the numebr of runs he gets even more notable ( and does suggest he should be given another go in ODIs)

Heres a table from an espn article last summer which even then showed he was number one, hes snced rased his avergae to 45.4 which would get him any side except India as a specialist batsman

All-time wicketkeepers with the highest averages (Qual: 1500 runs) Player Tests Runs Average 100s/ 50s
Andy Flower 55 4404 53.70 12/ 23
Adam Gilchrist 96 5570 47.60 17/ 26
Les Ames 44 2387 43.40 8/ 7
Matt Prior 32 1770 42.14 3/ 14 (now averages 45)
MS Dhoni 46 2556 41.90 4/ 18 (now averages 39)
Kumar Sangakkara 48 3117 40.48 7/ 11


Just incase you didnt get that ...as a test keeper he averages 5 more than Sangakarra did. Haddin didnt even make the list.

Theres a reason why so many people are queueing up to say hes the best current batsman keeper in tests, its because there isnt a sensible argument against it no matter how much you dont want it to be true. In terms of average hes only just behnd Gilchrst. Hats off to Flower though, no questuon he was the greatest of all time.

PSW

Flower may have averaged 54 but he only played Australia and South Africa in 4 Tests. These two sides would've exposed his weakness vs pace and bounce. Averages aren't everything. Gilchrist was the best.

As a Sussex fan I'll be the first to admit that Prior's glovework is awful at times, down at Hove both Ben Brown and Andrew Hodd are viewed as much safer pairs of hands behind the stumps.

However, Prior is a brilliant batsmen. IMO one of England's best in the squad and always scores important runs when it matters most.

For me he is right up there with McCullum and De Villiers (possibly Sanga up there as well).

longhopmerchant wrote:PSW

Flower may have averaged 54 but he only played Australia and South Africa in 4 Tests. These two sides would've exposed his weakness vs pace and bounce. Averages aren't everything. Gilchrist was the best.

Didnt realise it was that few, but then he didnt get to cash n cheaply against zimbabwe and he gilchrist didnt have to face Australia at all which balances it out a bit!
I complelty agree that averages arent everything, that aside its hard to argue with Priors stats vs current contenders. I dont think anyone would pretend hes a legendary player like Gilly or Flower, but as with Swann you can only judge him against the competition. Its pretty clear Dhoni just doesnt have the same level of mentality and technique for test batting he does in limited overs.

Gregers

de Villiers doesn't count, he only keeps in ODIs/T20s and he's hardly the best keeper.

McCullum is the premier gloveman.

Dhoni/Haddin/Prior are all similar with the bat. Dhoni and Haddin are currently in a batting slump, whilst Prior is having a purple patch - this could be due to Dhoni and Haddin playing all 3 forms, whereas Prior only plays Tests.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

longhopmerchant wrote:PSW

Flower may have averaged 54 but he only played Australia and South Africa in 4 Tests. These two sides would've exposed his weakness vs pace and bounce. Averages aren't everything. Gilchrist was the best.

Didnt realise it was that few, but then he didnt get to cash n cheaply against zimbabwe and he gilchrist didnt have to face Australia at all which balances it out a bit!
I complelty agree that averages arent everything, that aside its hard to argue with Priors stats vs current contenders. I dont think anyone would pretend hes a legendary player like Gilly or Flower, but as with Swann you can only judge him against the competition. Its pretty clear Dhoni just doesnt have the same level of mentality and technique for test batting he does in limited overs.

Sorry my stats let me down, Flower never played in Australia and only played 1 Test in SA. His home average vs SA was over 100, but Zim pitches are very slow and low

longhopmerchant wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

longhopmerchant wrote:PSW

Flower may have averaged 54 but he only played Australia and South Africa in 4 Tests. These two sides would've exposed his weakness vs pace and bounce. Averages aren't everything. Gilchrist was the best.

Didnt realise it was that few, but then he didnt get to cash n cheaply against zimbabwe and he gilchrist didnt have to face Australia at all which balances it out a bit!
I complelty agree that averages arent everything, that aside its hard to argue with Priors stats vs current contenders. I dont think anyone would pretend hes a legendary player like Gilly or Flower, but as with Swann you can only judge him against the competition. Its pretty clear Dhoni just doesnt have the same level of mentality and technique for test batting he does in limited overs.

Sorry my stats let me down, Flower never played in Australia and only played 1 Test in SA. His home average vs SA was over 100, but Zim pitches are very slow and low

Fair play then, I did wonder how his average got so high!

Is there any reason AB couldnt wickie in tests?

He could be the start of a new trend of batsmen who can wickie, rather than the wickie's who can bat that we look at at the moment. Its an obvious progressiion:

1970-Pre-Gilchrist --> Specialist Wicket Keepers

Gilchrist Era --> Searching for the 'holy grail' of a Gilchrist for every team of a destructive Wicket Keeper Batsmen

Post-Glichrist-Modern Day --> The age of Wicket Keeper Batsmen such as Prior, Dhoni etc. Good gloveman who can hit the ball hard but play good long innings when needed

Future --> The age of Batsmen who can Wickie fairly well (i.e. AB de Villiers)

"Future --> The age of Batsmen who can Wickie fairly well (i.e. AB de Villiers)"

Eoin Morgan?

prior is the best test keeper batsman around in test cricket at the momnet

gregers, boucher still does a great job for south africa in tests..

Gregers wrote:Is there any reason AB couldnt wickie in tests?

AB de Villlers says keeping effects his batting, and who's to argue? His batting average in Tests is getting better all the time.

There is a guy called Heino Kuhn, who is seen as the replacement for Boucher. He averages45 in 1st class cricket.

I'll keep my eye on him LHM, cheers

Dhoni's keeping is atrocious. Haddin and Prior are streets ahead.

Matt Prior always has been a decent bat, and in recent times, his keeping too has improved a lot. He's going through a purple patch with the bat now, and so in tests, at the moment he's the leader as a wicket keeper batsman.
But I don't think he has established a Gilly like grip on that title, there is a fair way to go. It remains to be seen how he'll keep to Swann and the rest of the bowling unit in low and slow conditions. when he toured Lanka and India last time around, his keeping was terrible, even rivaling that of Kamran the great. I would like to see him in action in the sub-continent with the bat and gloves, and then make a judgement..
For Me, MS Dhoni remains the best all-round WK/batter across formats. Dhoni's one of the best ODI batsman in the world, and his test record isn't bad either, a batting average close to 40 can't be bad for a number 7 who keeps, captains, and Bowls prodigiously swinging thunderbolts!!!!!!. His T-20I record though not great, isn't bad at all.

Someone should make it a point to ask Ryan Sidebottom's point of view on this question. I am sure he'll have something to say on this!!!!!.

msp83 wrote:Matt Prior always has been a decent bat, and in recent times, his keeping too has improved a lot. He's going through a purple patch with the bat now, and so in tests, at the moment he's the leader as a wicket keeper batsman.
But I don't think he has established a Gilly like grip on that title, there is a fair way to go. It remains to be seen how he'll keep to Swann and the rest of the bowling unit in low and slow conditions. when he toured Lanka and India last time around, his keeping was terrible, even rivaling that of Kamran the great. I would like to see him in action in the sub-continent with the bat and gloves, and then make a judgement..
For Me, MS Dhoni remains the best all-round WK/batter across formats. Dhoni's one of the best ODI batsman in the world, and his test record isn't bad either, a batting average close to 40 can't be bad for a number 7 who keeps, captains, and Bowls prodigiously swinging thunderbolts!!!!!!. His T-20I record though not great, isn't bad at all.

Cant argue with you there MSP. Dhoni is an ODI legend, and Proirs not quite in Gilli/Flower territory yet as a test batsman. Prior was so dissapointing in limited overs. I do think he perhaps deserves another go, his batting and keeping and confidence jas come on leaps and bounds...and he doesnt have a certain coach telling him to concentrate winding up the opposition and running a sweet shop rather than taking catches of Sidebottom.
Think you might be overegging Dhonis bowling there a bit though, hes no ABD who has a test avergae of 50 with the ball...Indian bowlers could only dream of that at the minute (Ok its just 2 wickets ...)

With regard to batsmen keeping wicket ...just read up on Stewart ...he averaged 46 as an opener and 47 as a pure batsman (insanely high for that period), 35 as a keeper. Talk about an effect!

MSD offers more to the team with his calmness,captaincy and more importantly bowling.


Jokes apart,I would have Dhoni ahead of Prior atm.If Prior can outperform Dhoni throughout this series then I might rethink.Atm Dhoni for me

In Tests

Prior
Haddin
Dhoni

In ODI's

Dhoni

daylight

the rest

Sangakarra is a good one day keeper/batsman.

In ODI's

Sangakkara / Dhoni

the rest

wadey101 wrote:In ODI's

Sangakkara / Dhoni

the rest

Haddin did well in the World Cup.He does have a decent ODI record.

Haddin averages 33 and has a s/rate of 82. These numbers are not that good. The average is ok if the sr is higher and vice versa.

Sanga and Dhoni would walk into an odi side on their batting alone, haddin wouldnt come close. It is fair to say that those two are the genuine ODI batsmen keepers

Sangakara is the best because he keeps well and bats at 4 not just pinch hitting down the order.


As an Irishman, i think that Niall O Brien to the obvioius detriment of Ireland should probably be Englands ODI wicket keeper. Thoughts?

Niall O'Brien is good but he's not Prior/Kieswetter/Davies level. He played sensationally in the world cup but hasnt had the best of county seasons.

I think Prior is the best Test match Wicket-Keeper especially with McCullum and Sangakkara not taking the gloves in test matches. Priors batting improving all the time his average proves that, far better than any other International Keeper and his keepings progressed massively. So for me yes Prior is the best Wicket-Keeper in Tests. In ODI's I would say Dhoni or when he's got the gloves, McCullum.

Prior is the best around. His glovework has improved since that awful test in the Carribbean 2 years ago where I think England conceded something like 48 byes and his glovework was all over the shot.

On current form he is miles ahead of anyone. He just needs to maintain this current run of form.

Haddin is not far behind.

Prior is certainly the current best in Tests.

His high strike rate suggests that he should be suited to the 1 day game, however I feel that England have always missed a trick by insisting that he open the innings. Prior is much better coming in lower down the order in my opinion.

Gilchrist is the best overall though, a true legend.

I think the fact that most think some players are only the best in ODIs/Tests or 20/20s just goes to show that people are still giving undue credit for batting prowess.
The simple way to look at it is, it doesn't matter whether you average 20, 35, or 50 with the bat if you make regular mistakes with the gloves, giving your team an extra 30 odd runs per match than your rival is nowhere near as important as giving away extras, dropping catches, missing stumpings and generally lowering the confidence of all your bowlers and fielders.
I will never understand why any international side would pick an average or even a poor keeper just because he's a reasonable batsman, did no-one see how quickly the heads of the Indian bowlers and fielders dropped when Doni dropped two consecutive balls and they weren't even wicket chances either?

Start rating keepers based on their talent with the gloves, batting talent should only even come into the equation when there is little to no difference when using the gloves.