Quick Question....

by Gordy Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:47 am

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

First post here. To start just want to say Im not a big boxing follower so apologies in advance if this question is silly. My question is basically is David Haye the worst ever heavyeight champion?

To give you a bit of background as to why I am asking, I am sure you are all aware that boxing legend Joe Frazier passed away recently and I was discussing this down in the pub with a few mates (none of whom know any more than me about boxing I should add). Now I watched the last David Haye fight and will happily admit that I bought into all the hype surrounding it. I really thought he was going to knock out the big Russian guy and put boxing on the map again. I hadnt really been following it much since the days of Tyson, Lewis and Holyfield so I really believed Haye was going bring back some of the excitement and didnt think the Russian guy was any use. Needless to say I was pretty shocked at how useless Haye was and felt the whole thing had just been a scam to make a few quid rather than a real heavyweight title fight. Now as I said this to my mates that Haye must have been the worst ever champion and somebody like Joe Frazier would absolutely clean up today they claimed that Haye would be his equal given how much sports had improved. I find it hard to believe given how rubbish boxing seems to be at the moment that somebody like Frazier who fought against Ali would not be able to knock out the likes of Haye or these Russian guys and I just want to get the opinions of some more knowledgeable folks on how good Haye is compared to other champions?

The other side question I wanted to ask if any of you guys actually box is how much a toe injury like Haye had would affect you? Is there any weight in that or is it all just an excuse?

Cheers

by John Bloody Wayne Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:07 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I find Gordy humorous. I personally find it very difficult to find the energy to dislike people I know, let alone some Internet stranger.

What if they're fat. Like, faaaaaaaaaat.

Really, reeeeaaaally fat. Or Tina.

by bhb001 Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:12 pm

John Bloody Wayne wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:I find Gordy humorous. I personally find it very difficult to find the energy to dislike people I know, let alone some Internet stranger.

What if they're fat. Like, faaaaaaaaaat.

Really, reeeeaaaally fat. Or Tina.

I have said before that Gordy in Spanish is a cutey term for fatty, usually used by someone who loves you to gently pull your leg, such as "vamos Gordy" or let's go fatty. And yes, my wife (a native Spanish speaker) has used it on me before!! I really have trouble aking anything Gordy says seriously when know this and that is before I read the drivel he writes.

by John Bloody Wayne Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:13 pm

You're perpetuating the stereotype that gordies are typically unintelligent.

by bhb001 Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:23 pm

The last thing I would want to do! You can'ty generalise on all "gordies" but you can be specific on this one!

by John Bloody Wayne Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:33 pm

Yep, he's definitely fat.

by Lumbering_Jack Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:43 pm

John Bloody Wayne wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:I find Gordy humorous. I personally find it very difficult to find the energy to dislike people I know, let alone some Internet stranger.

What if they're fat. Like, faaaaaaaaaat.

Really, reeeeaaaally fat. Or Tina.

I make an exception for those.

And me and Tina get on just fine.

And Geordies are obviously the greatest people in this country. Impossible to argue otherwise.

by **ShahenshahG** Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:04 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:
John Bloody Wayne wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:I find Gordy humorous. I personally find it very difficult to find the energy to dislike people I know, let alone some Internet stranger.

What if they're fat. Like, faaaaaaaaaat.

Really, reeeeaaaally fat. Or Tina.

I make an exception for those.

And me and Tina get on just fine.

And Geordies are obviously the greatest people in this country. Impossible to argue otherwise.

Only by Mass

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:22 pm

If you were actually interested in an answer to your question instead of wumming....

(Strange world when Coxy goes and this guy stays!!)

You'll find myself and others have posted several articles on the worst heavies in history!!

by bhb001 Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:56 pm

Truss, the article was so old it was resurrected to show how Gordy's knowledge has grown over the space of one year to the point from where he said he had almost no knowledge of boxing to where he is now an intellectual giant that belittles all the amatuers on here. Hence the piley on! Nothing to take too seriously!

by Super D Boon Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:58 pm

Trussman worst heavyweight in history is Marvin Hart? Am I right?

by two_tone Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:01 pm

Makes me laugh though, he admits he knows nothing of the sport and is open for suggestions and opinions in order to learn a bit more then a year on has taken nothing in and stuck to what he has suggested in his first post. He is either the most determined WUM or thick as pig sh1t. Or perhaps just a splash of both.

by Guest Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:05 pm

Audley Harrison - WBF HW CHampion of the World....end of argument.

Johnny Nelson - WBF HW Champion of the World...argument re-opens

by **Union Cane** Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:06 pm

Spoiler:

by Guest Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:09 pm

Union, everyone knows that's a photo of their now infamous sparring session and not the actual title fight.

by davidemore Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:50 pm

Union, you are a MOD, yet you happily lead my thread away from JMM and into comedic nonsense.

Not on. Sad

by Rowley Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:56 pm

davidemore wrote:Union, you are a MOD, yet you happily lead my thread away from JMM and into comedic nonsense.

Not on.

The thread was actually led away by us leaping in to deal with an unprovoked and unwarranted attack on your personage Davide, where's the gratitude.

by davidemore Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:05 pm

For that i am grateful gang, eternally. I never forget the Bromance. heart

by kevchadders Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:13 pm

manos de piedra wrote:There have been some pretty poor champions before Haye. Liakhovitch, Bennt, Damiani, Hide, Seldon, Akinwade, Valuev, Ruiz would almost certainly rank below Haye. None of these guys were ever the man and were just titlist.

Then theres Maskaev, Tate, Page, Hart, Rahman, Spinks, Weaver, Carnera, Bruno etc that I think would form the kind of bracket that Haye would belong to. I would guess that talent wise hes probably equal than most of these guys in this bracket but the fact alot of them can claim to have held the official title, which Haye never did probably edges a number of them above him.

So Id see Haye in the 10-15 bracket.

Agree with manos on this one with Haye's rating. I think the main problem with Haye is his lack of fights in the HW division. If you kept his current record and padded it with a few more top 10 contenders, I think he would be looked upon in a much better light.

Also with the injury excuse with Haye after fights but no mention beforehand. Well i dont know of any fighter who will admit to an injury just before a bout as it can give your opponent a psychological agvantage.

Does mean everything Haye says is the truth but fighters do pick up injuries.

by Adam D Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:39 pm

Quick question follow up to the last point.

Has there been a publicized incident where a fighter has lied about an injury beforehand to get his opponent to change his game plan?

by Boxtthis Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:54 pm

seanmichaels wrote:Gordy is scottrf.

I'm a firm believer that Gordy is a WUM alias. Whoever is doing it has impressive levels of perseverance.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:57 pm

Big threads like this were never Tory-boys style!!!!

More likely to be someone who never contributes anything but is always around...

Union or someone...

by AlexHuckerby Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:53 pm

Adam D wrote:Quick question follow up to the last point.

Has there been a publicized incident where a fighter has lied about an injury beforehand to get his opponent to change his game plan?

I think the dearly departed Windy told me that Harry Greb (I think memory is failing me right now) went into bars in public and just ordered water and acted as though he was getting drunk every night so a certain fighter (Again name fails me) would sign to fight him believing Greb was out of shape.

Closest thing I can think of. Can't rememebr if it was Greb mind you...

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:57 pm

Johnny Wilson.................

by John Bloody Wayne Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm

I think it might've been Mickey Walker he was fooling?

by JabMachineMK2 Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:33 pm

For reference, as Gordy has returned claiming to be a boxing expert.

by TheMackemMawler Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:43 am

I have three things to say on the toe:

1) The adrenaline of a match, and the consequential release of dopamine, mainly stops you feeling the thud of head shots, but body shots and injuries still cause very real pain.

In the earlier rounds the effects of pre-fight nerves may subdue the pain caused by injury very slightly, however, as a boxer settles into the fight the effects of the adrenaline would be less. All pre-fight nerves tend to dissipate as soon as the first bell sounds. So how long the effects of the bodies chemicals last after that point is anyone's guess. I should think it is different for each individual and depends on how nervous or gee'd up the boxer was before the fight and their natural pain threshold.

2) The back foot of a boxer should, by the book, have the heel raised from the floor slightly. This shifts the weight forward to the balls of the the feet. Most of the weight, or transfer of power, is provided by the ball under the big toe (not the little toe). However, most boxers rhythm's will cause the weight distribution on the ball of the foot to move from the big toe to the small toe. Also, before throwing a big back hand, by sitting down on the rear leg, the knee may twist out slightly, this shifts some weight to the small toe. Basically, movement in all directions will be effected by a toe injury. This would impede a boxer who uses guile; as haye often did as a Heavy.

3) Don't professional sports use cortisone injections and such like for injuries such as these? (On Football Manager 2010 I know I had the option of giving my star player a jab to help him play through pain for the big games. I'm sure it is the same for boxing).

Toe injury or not, he wouldn't have won. However, he's certainly not the worst heavyweight in history.

by TheMackemMawler Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:53 am

Long live Gordy!!

by Lumbering_Jack Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:46 am

Let it go jab, surely you have more important things to worry about.

Interesting piece Mackem... And I agree. The toe would have an impact on performance but I still think he loses. He beats Vit at this stage though.

by trottb Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:51 am

JabMachineMK2 wrote:For reference, as Gordy has returned claiming to be a boxing expert.

You are to Gordy what coxy was to D4.

by **Fists of Fury** Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:13 am

Crikey, so this is what would have happened if the Germans hadn't built a car park over Adolf's bunker...talk about a shrine for followers.

by AlexHuckerby Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:25 am

To be fair, I think it's a joke that Coxy got kicked off and Gordy hasn't...

by Mind the windows Tino. Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:32 am

AlexHuckerby wrote:To be fair, I think it's a joke that Coxy got kicked off and Gordy hasn't...

Why? Gordy/Scotty hasn't actually done anything wrong. He is a WUM, and a boring one, that much I would concede, but for the life of me I can't understand why people don't just ignore him. It is so easy to do yet very few of us seem able to do so.

I didn't want Coxy kicked off either, but he was too thick to reign himself in so got what he deserved.

by Rowley Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:34 am

Alex, if you could kindly direct me to which of the house rules Gordy has broke I am more than happy to look into it.

by AlexHuckerby Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:56 am

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:To be fair, I think it's a joke that Coxy got kicked off and Gordy hasn't...

Why? Gordy/Scotty hasn't actually done anything wrong. He is a WUM, and a boring one, that much I would concede, but for the life of me I can't understand why people don't just ignore him. It is so easy to do yet very few of us seem able to do so.

I didn't want Coxy kicked off either, but he was too thick to reign himself in so got what he deserved.

Difference is it ruins half of the threads and descends it into the same arguements whether I foe him or not.

by TopHat24/7 Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:06 am

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:To be fair, I think it's a joke that Coxy got kicked off and Gordy hasn't...

Why? Gordy/Scotty hasn't actually done anything wrong. He is a WUM, and a boring one, that much I would concede, but for the life of me I can't understand why people don't just ignore him. It is so easy to do yet very few of us seem able to do so.

I didn't want Coxy kicked off either, but he was too thick to reign himself in so got what he deserved.

But, equally, Coxy did also validly contribute, whereas Gordy contributes nothing. Surely a good healthy forum isn't about having just the perfect Chris' Rowley's Manos' Tino's etc of this world. It's about a sensible mix of historians, fans, boxers, WUMs and so on and so forth.

The mods do a difficult and largely thankless task on here, so I don't want to judge, it just feels slightly uncomfortable that clearly more valuable people (that can get occassionaly a little carried away) are sacrificed when turds like Gordy are accommodated.

by captain carrantuohil Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:55 am

Think the mods generally do a fine job in deciding who has transgressed the rules beyond toleration. It's not an easy task, and rather them than me. However, I would point out that the rules were bent a bit in the case of Waingro, who, beyond being as stupid as a Berkshire hog, didn't technically infringe any code, as far as I can recall.

There comes a time, of course, when imbecility above and beyond the call of duty does represent a threat to the existing order, which is why I assume Waingro was eventually deep-sixed (and not a moment too soon, in my view). In such a contest of modern intellectual giants, though, I don't see that Gordy has in any way demonstrated superiority over our late, unlamented "friend", and would submit that it wouldn't be the worst Christmas present to the board if he were to be treated in similar fashion.

by Rowley Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:59 am

captain carrantuohil wrote:Think the mods generally do a fine job in deciding who has transgressed the rules beyond toleration. It's not an easy task, and rather them than me. However, I would point out that the rules were bent a bit in the case of Waingro, who, beyond being as stupid as a Berkshire hog, didn't technically infringe any code, as far as I can recall.

There comes a time, of course, when imbecility above and beyond the call of duty does represent a threat to the existing order, which is why I assume Waingro was eventually deep-sixed (and not a moment too soon, in my view). In such a contest of modern intellectual giants, though, I don't see that Gordy has in any way demonstrated superiority over our late, unlamented "friend", and would submit that it wouldn't be the worst Christmas present to the board if he were to be treated in similar fashion.

The only issue with that captain is I would miss out on his reaction when Lennox comes second to Langford in my top ten best Canadians series.

by captain carrantuohil Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:01 pm

You could always restore his membership for a 24-hour period of grace afterwards, Jeff. Although then you'd have to explain to me why McLarnin wouldn't also rank ahead of the greatest heavyweight of the last 5000 years.

by JabMachineMK2 Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:14 pm

I think generally the mods do a good job, I do have issues with some of the actions taken as you all know - there is some inconsistency, but generally a 7 or 8/10 performance all around. I've often thought that there should be a "mod police" almost - although I imagine thats why admins are around.

I must admit, even though I didn't like the guy, Coxy gave much more to the board than Gordy - I wasn't aware of the reason why he's been kicked off (still not) but I'm sure a "last time or lifetime ban" warning could be issued. Allow him to choose his own fate perhaps?

God knows we still have Truss beefing his way around Hug

Actually warmed to him recently. Striking, I know.

by Rowley Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:16 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:You could always restore his membership for a 24-hour period of grace afterwards, Jeff. Although then you'd have to explain to me why McLarnin wouldn't also rank ahead of the greatest heavyweight of the last 5000 years.

Dear god I forgot about Jimmy, Lennox appears to have dropped to 3rd, on the plus side I think I still have him edging Tommy Burns though.

by bellchees Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:22 pm

Didn't Coxy get kicked off for persistently talking about streaming then saying he didn't realise it was against house rules despite commenting on Rowleys thread explaining the house rules regarding streaming?

by **superflyweight** Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:25 pm

But Lennox surely loses out to Dan Sherry?

by Rowley Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:31 pm

superflyweight wrote:But Lennox surely loses out to Dan Sherry?

And the Hilton's and Jean Pascal, at this rate he will struggle to make the top ten

by The Boss Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:47 pm

Is it not because McLarnin's an Irishman?
*as I put the tin opener away...

by captain carrantuohil Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:05 pm

Let me assist you with the can, The Boss. Jimmy lived to the ripe old age of nearly 97. He was born in Hillsborough, Ireland, right enough, but left at the age of 3, never to return. By my reckoning, that makes something like 3.1% of his time on the Auld Sod, which in turn makes him...not very Irish at all, really. Unless Charlie Magri is Tunisian, Joe Bugner is Hungarian, Joe Calzaghe is English, etc, etc....

Puts can opener away.

by The Boss Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:08 pm

Well as a matter of fact I do! No no no, even Gordy's thread doesn't deserve this! So we'll just stick him in as the 3rd best Candian ever and be done with it.

by Champagne_Socialist Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:13 pm

I think Gordy's comments have got to the point where the site loses credibility having him as a user. It is one thing having a different view on boxing such as who is the best or who would win etc but Gordy talks about politics and starts labelling people as corrupt due to their nationality.

The worst comments have to be him talking about klitschko first of all saying that the glove against wach was NOT tampered with and was a klitschko lie. And then when it was pointed out to him that a representative of the boxing organisation confirmed the glove was faulty he then started saying that klitschko planted the glove. Then after Wach tested positive for banned substances he then said that klitschko drugged him.

It's those kind of comments that just lower the credibility of the board. If you have posters making ridiculous claims that one fighter is drugging another fighter or planting faulty gloves without a shred of evidence to confirm what they are saying is true then the whole forum loses credibility.

by captain carrantuohil Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:14 pm

Well, I'm not sure about third, guys. George Dixon? Johnny Coulon? Maybe even Lou Brouillard? How about Jack Delaney? I know, Jeff, why not tell Gordy that Lennox needs a box-off with George Chuvalo for a Top Ten berth?

by The Boss Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:18 pm

Well if Chuvalo's coming out of retirement we'll have to dig McLarnin up for a box off with Bute for a top 10 spot in Canada!

by bhb001 Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:33 pm

Banning for being stupid is harsh (i wouldn't last 10 minutes), but there is an issue over unsubstantiated accusations over a period of time which may be looked at. I am sorry to see Coxy go, as well, but his last tirade was beyond anything Gordy has done and so he made his bed in this case.

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