606v2 Greatest Test Wicket-Keepers Vote

First topic message reminder :

Morning folks

Same format as usual, the 10 greatest Test wicket-keepers, in your opinion, since the war.

In order, of course.

Cheers

It's interesting people have Dujon in there. Now by my admission wicket-keeping isn't my speciality but I was talking to an ex-first class and international wicket-keeper a while ago and he said that he thought Dujon was flashy but technically a very average keeper. For example Prior is already a better keeper and improving.

I put Dhoni in there because he is very very good standing up (IMO) and for a while (he seems to be in a slump ATM) a very good batsman. People saying Prior is clearer the better test player are over-egging the pudding IMO.

Who between Andy Flower and Mahendra Singh Dhoni is the better keeper? I'd say Dhoni. Flower wasn't really tested as a keeper in his career. If he could be in there on the basis of his superb batting and decent keeping, surely there should be a place for Dhoni. Dhoni isn't a bad bat by any means, and he is a good enough keeper, particularly good when standing up to the stumps.
Boucher has a good overall record as a keeper, particularly his longevity is absolutely a matter of creddit. But he never was among the greatest of keepers, and in the beginning, he was nothing more than average. His batting has a resilient quality about it, but then he is no Flower, Gilchrist,Sangakkara or Dhoni with the bat. Good enough with the gloves for long, and ok with the bat. If he's there, Dhoni should make it for me.

the reason Dhoni is good standing up is, somewhat strangely, because of a technical fault he has with his keeping: if you watch, there's very little "give" when he takes the ball, he tends to snatch at it somewhat. As such, because he's not bringing the ball back he's very quick on stumpings, but not so good at catches.

It's an interesting one, and very possibly due to his Indian background he would have spent a lot of time up to the stumps, so developped this technique. The problem with this is when his hands become tired/sore he turns into a minor county standard keeper as we saw this summer.

I confess that I haven't seen a huge amount of Dujon keeping, but he was good enough to keep to one of the very best bowling attacks of all time, making very very few mistakes.

msp, TBH Flower wasn't tested much as a keeper, so it's very hard to judge. Don't remember many mistakes from him though. Sangakkara and Stewart both have pretty ordinary batting records when keeping, and given they're not that great keepers either that rules them out in my book. Dhoni's batting record isn't that much better than Boucher's (there's about a 7 run per innings difference, far less than Dhoni vs Flower for instance), and to me Boucher is the much superior keeper.

For me, to make this list, you have to have been
a) a top notch keeper, e.g. Taylor, Evans, Knott, Healy, Tallon, Marsh (OK I've included a few of these, being a keeper myself)
b) a very good keeper and a good batsman e.g. Boucher, Dujon. Healy and Knott were useful with the bat too.
c) an excellent batsman and good keeper e.g. Gilchrist, Flower.

For me Dhoni is a good batsman and a good keeper, but that's just not enough for me.

Prior is a better Test batsman than Dhoni.
More hundreds,better average,in tougher conditions and more importantly under pressure situations.
As good as Dhoni has been under pressure in ODIS,most of his Test runs have come when the opposition are already on the mat.

You say Dhoni is a better keeper standing up than Prior, because that is what he has been brought up doing on the slow, low Indian pitches to spinners. Prior is better standing back to the late swing of the ball. Both different skills and they are both have their own areas of strength. But I would probably take Prior overall in tests at the moment.

Prior has indeed scored some good runs under pressure, but like Dhoni, majority of his runs have come when there was a situation to consolidate. Not so much a problem with the 2 there, but they both bat 7 more often than not, and it is a position demanding such knocks more often than note.

dhoni is a slogger, but he is effective. 3rd ball into his innings today he smashed it over long on, dragged it from outside off stump

Mad for Chelsea wrote:msp, TBH Flower wasn't tested much as a keeper, so it's very hard to judge. Don't remember many mistakes from him though. Sangakkara and Stewart both have pretty ordinary batting records when keeping, and given they're not that great keepers either that rules them out in my book. Dhoni's batting record isn't that much better than Boucher's (there's about a 7 run per innings difference, far less than Dhoni vs Flower for instance), and to me Boucher is the much superior keeper.

For me, to make this list, you have to have been
a) a top notch keeper, e.g. Taylor, Evans, Knott, Healy, Tallon, Marsh (OK I've included a few of these, being a keeper myself)
b) a very good keeper and a good batsman e.g. Boucher, Dujon. Healy and Knott were useful with the bat too.
c) an excellent batsman and good keeper e.g. Gilchrist, Flower.

For me Dhoni is a good batsman and a good keeper, but that's just not enough for me.

Is Andy Flower Zimbabwe's best ever wicket keeper? He of course has been their best ever cricketer, best ever batsman, and best ever wicket keeper-batsman. but as far glove work is concerned, I'd say Tatenta Taibu is better.
Is Boucher a far superior keeper to MS Dhoni? I don't think so. in the Mid-2000s, he had a spel when he struggled with both bat and gloves and found himself out of the side. Boucher is a fighter, an effective keeper and an effective bat. But South Africa lacked good replacement options mostly throughout his career. Even now, Who after Boucher has become a huge question for them. For me, both Dhoni and Boucher are good keepers and good batsmen. Dhoni is a much better bat. Think an average in the late 30s and touching 40 at times has to be much better than one that just touches the 30 mark. Boucher has one thing in his favor, his longevity, and the amount of dismissals that are unmatched. Dhoni's overall value to the side is pretty high, and not many wicket keepers have been as successful as captains. For me, they both have to be there.

If Dhoni is better standing up because he has been brought up in such conditions, Prior is ok in swinging conditions because he has been brought up in such conditions. But not so long ago, he was terrible, even when keeping to the pacers, and it was because of this, that despite being in decent nick with the bat he found himself out of the England setup.

Dhoni is not as good a Test player as he is in ODIS but to call him a slogger is absolutely ridiculous.

msp
I don't think Boucher was dropped because of his keeping skills.

msp

you make a good point about Flower. I too would rate Taibu the superior keeper, but it's pretty marginal and I confess to having not watched avidly every match they have ben involved in. don't think Dhoni is India's best keeper though, Kirmani certainly ahead of him in my book.

your point about Boucher being the only real option SA have had for a while as to being behind his longevity is also a good one, but I stand by my opinion that there is a bigger difference between Boucher and Dhoni's keeping than between their batting. Again, this is my opinion, but Boucher would rank in the top 10 of keepers I've watched live (behind Russell, Healy, Read, Foster, Jayawardene, and maybe one or two others I may have forgotten), whereas Dhoni would be about borderline top 15. Am I being too harsh on Dhoni's keeping skills? Maybe, but that's how I see it, so he doesn't make the top 10 for me.

Once again, I freely confess that as a keeper myself I tend to be biased towards the "pure keepers" in my list.

1. Ian Healy
2. Jackie Hendricks
3. John Waite
4. Jeff Dujon
5. Ian Smith
6. S Kirmani
7. A Knott
8. G Evans
9. A Gilchrist
10. M Boucher

Too bad I had to miss Prasanna J, Sanga, Rod Marsh, Parore, D Murray, Bob Taylor, W Bari, R Latif and Dhoni.

K Akmal would win by a landslide if this poll were to be held on JA606.

This category is by far the most difficult we've been asked to evaluate and vote upon.

Mike commented earlier that it's ''not all about statistics''. I agree with that strongly - that's two agreements in as many days, Mike!

As well as all the possible strengths flagged above by Mad, a top wicket keeper should also be a bit like a top captain. From behind the stumps he should seek to positively influence the game as well as displaying determination, concentration and nous. In particular, he needs to possess such personality and ability that his bowlers all have total confidence in him.

I'll have a go at voting a bit later. As I say, it won't be easy ....

I'm very keen to see your votes guildford. Having watched the game for longer than most of us, I'm sure you'll come up with some names which I've shamefully forgotten, so I reserve the right to edit my list any time in the future.

guildfordbat wrote:This category is by far the most difficult we've been asked to evaluate and vote upon.

Mike commented earlier that it's ''not all about statistics''. I agree with that strongly - that's two agreements in as many days, Mike!

As well as all the possible strengths flagged above by Mad, a top wicket keeper should also be a bit like a top captain. From behind the stumps he should seek to positively influence the game as well as displaying determination, concentration and nous. In particular, he needs to possess such personality and ability that his bowlers all have total confidence in him.

I'll have a go at voting a bit later. As I say, it won't be easy ....

I'm sure we'll soon find something to disagree on guildford! I hope so anyway, I've enjoyed our recent debates.

The point about a keeper's influence is a very valid one. If you think about it, most top keepers have also had "personality" (e.g. Knott by all accounts was quite a character, Gillchrist with his walking and "areas Shane", Russell's hat, etc...).

Another factor which seems to unite keepers is their work ethic: one could make a case for some great batsmen (and bowlers) being somewhat "lazy" in the sense they had an aversion to training (e.g. Gower, Botham) (although I feel this is somewhat overplayed), but can anyone think of a "lazy" keeper? Even the ones I'm involved with all seem to be hard-working, hard-training and fairly easy to coach. Actually there is a rumour Sangakara had a bit of an aversion to prolonged pre-match practice...

Thanks, Mad - very kind, I'm sure most would just call me an old s*d!

I'll quickly flag two or three who have all been mentioned but seem to be struggling to find a top ten place.

One keeper who always seemed to have a massive presence and respect of his team mates was the Aussie Rod Marsh. A straight talker both on and off the pitch.

A far quieter keeper but equally respected in his home country of Pakistan was Wasim Bari. His captain Imran Khan put him on the same level as Alan Knott and talked him out of early retirement at least once. Unflashy, unspectacular but so dependable.

Whilst Knott was certainly an excellent keeper, many at the time thought Bob Taylor even better behind the stumps and believed Knott owed his England place to his clearly superior batting. Taylor was desperately unlucky to miss so much test cricket due to ''another great'' being around in the same era (shades of Ray Clemence and Peter Shilton if that means anything to you!). Also to Taylor's credit, England skipper Ray Illingworth referred to Taylor as being ''an excellent tourist'' (or something similar) when we won the Ashes in Australia in 1970-71 even though he understudied Knott throughout the whole series and never played a game.

Finally, for now, one who will probably just miss out on my top ten but deserves an honourable mention is the late Ken Wadsworth of New Zealand. He died at the tragically early age of 29 from skin cancer - this was in the days before cricketers applied sun cream. For some years a proven and reliable test keeper who would surely have got better with even more experience. Also, a selfless batsman who ground in or upped the tempo for his side as the match circumstances demanded.

1) Gilchrist
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Will do the rest of my list tomorrow!

guildfordbat wrote:Thanks, Mad - very kind, I'm sure most would just call me an old s*d!

I'll quickly flag two or three who have all been mentioned but seem to be struggling to find a top ten place.

One keeper who always seemed to have a massive presence and respect of his team mates was the Aussie Rod Marsh. A straight talker both on and off the pitch.

A far quieter keeper but equally respected in his home country of Pakistan was Wasim Bari. His captain Imran Khan put him on the same level as Alan Knott and talked him out of early retirement at least once. Unflashy, unspectacular but so dependable.

Whilst Knott was certainly an excellent keeper, many at the time thought Bob Taylor even better behind the stumps and believed Knott owed his England place to his clearly superior batting. Taylor was desperately unlucky to miss so much test cricket due to ''another great'' being around in the same era (shades of Ray Clemence and Peter Shilton if that means anything to you!). Also to Taylor's credit, England skipper Ray Illingworth referred to Taylor as being ''an excellent tourist'' (or something similar) when we won the Ashes in Australia in 1970-71 even though he understudied Knott throughout the whole series and never played a game.

Finally, for now, one who will probably just miss out on my top ten but deserves an honourable mention is the late Ken Wadsworth of New Zealand. He died at the tragically early age of 29 from skin cancer - this was in the days before cricketers applied sun cream. For some years a proven and reliable test keeper who would surely have got better with even more experience. Also, a selfless batsman who ground in or upped the tempo for his side as the match circumstances demanded.

glad someone else mentioned Bob Taylor! Superb keeper, and as you say unlucky to be playing at the same time as another all-time great in Alan Knott. Thought about Wasim Bari, he would probably be just off my list. Interesting to hear about Wadsworth (whom I knew nothing about), such a tragic story that is, thanks for that!

Leff wrote:1. Ian Healy
2. Jackie Hendricks
3. John Waite
4. Jeff Dujon
5. Ian Smith
6. S Kirmani
7. A Knott
8. G Evans
9. A Gilchrist
10. M Boucher

Too bad I had to miss Prasanna J, Sanga, Rod Marsh, Parore, D Murray, Bob Taylor, W Bari, R Latif and Dhoni.

K Akmal would win by a landslide if this poll were to be held on JA606.

Khatmal will win any poll hands down, he is best keeper I have ever seen. I agree with most of your rankings, but not really sure if Smith belongs there as which spinner did he keep to? Dujon yes because he was keeping to fastest of bowlers. I have not heard of Hendricks, Waite and Evans so will not be able to comment on it. Nayan Mongia had better keeping skills than Dhoni but cannot be put in this category. Rahid Latiff was good as well but lacks the longevity. Dhoni is not that good of a keeper but he can be termed as one of the best WK batsman behind Gilly, Sanga and Flower.

wow wrote: I agree with most of your rankings, but not really sure if Smith belongs there as which spinner did he keep to? Dujon yes because he was keeping to fastest of bowlers. I have not heard of Hendricks, Waite and Evans so will not be able to comment on it. Nayan Mongia had better keeping skills than Dhoni but cannot be put in this category. Rahid Latiff was good as well but lacks the longevity. Dhoni is not that good of a keeper but he can be termed as one of the best WK batsman behind Gilly, Sanga and Flower.

You are right that there weren't any great spinners in the Kiwi unit when Ian Smith was keeping. I picked the ones who I thought were exceptionally clean and reliable, if not flashy. But, then I couldn't discount the ability of Boucher, Gilchrist, Dujon, and Knott, for they played so many tests and for so many years, and kept to highly temperamental bowlers. Among the ones I omitted, the one I feel most guilty about was Bob Taylor. Knott got in because he played more and he brought positive energy to the team. Healy topped my list because he missed almost nothing. You could never say so and so scored a century because Healy dropped him three times.

Interestingly, if I based entirely on the number of dismissals per match, I would have had to include Kamran and Geraint. Well, we know how good they were.

As Guilford said, these are tough choices to make. You can't expect a good keeper like Kirmani to have as many catching opportunities as Boucher as one was keeping for Solkar and Abid Ali, and the other for Donald and Steyn. In contrast, one would expect more stumping opportunities for Kirmani. For any keeper, catches make up more dismissals than stumpings.

I didn't want to hold it against Ian Smith that his team did not have good quality spinners.

Would you pick a keeper who played for a great team with great bowlers who created hundreds of opportunities, or a keeper who was reliable and picked up whatever that came in his way?

In the end, the choice is based on our personal likes and dislikes, what we perceive as the most important quality of a gloveman.

One interesting aspect for me. Where in the order should keepers bat? Some - like Engineer - would open which was a pretty tough ask if you'd been in the field for 10 hours.
However, having kept (admittedly for two-and-a-half hours max) and opened myself, you do see the ball well when you bat. Also, you can actually leave some deliveries - a luxury denied the poor keeper who has to assume EVERY ball is coming to him.
Of course, keepers in weak batting line-ups will have to bat earlier than normal even if they are "buried" away at 7 or 8. Similarly, if you have a strong bowling line-up then you could bat higher up as you will not have had to field for so long.
Would Gilly - a great player - have been the batsman he was if he'd been in a weaker team? He didn't make that many runs in England when the guys ahead of him struggled in 2005.

I think Gilly would have been superb in any team he played for. He just was a special player. I know it is ODI stuff, but he was a class ODI opener and that was coming in straight away with no-one to take the pressure off him. Admittedly he knew he had a mighty line up to come, but still. And as for England 05, pretty much every Aussie batsman struggled in that series at some point so it is not a big concern of mine and we do underestimate how good England were in that series, I would have fancied them to give any team in history a run for their money at that point in time.

JDizzle - Yes, England had a good bowling line-up in 05 and the ball swung convenientaly often. But it showed what could happen to Gilly's batting if those above failed CONSISTENTLY. I think he would have made runs in any team, but not as many - or attractively - as he did for the ultra-strong Aussies.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:msp

you make a good point about Flower. I too would rate Taibu the superior keeper, but it's pretty marginal and I confess to having not watched avidly every match they have ben involved in. don't think Dhoni is India's best keeper though, Kirmani certainly ahead of him in my book.

your point about Boucher being the only real option SA have had for a while as to being behind his longevity is also a good one, but I stand by my opinion that there is a bigger difference between Boucher and Dhoni's keeping than between their batting. Again, this is my opinion, but Boucher would rank in the top 10 of keepers I've watched live (behind Russell, Healy, Read, Foster, Jayawardene, and maybe one or two others I may have forgotten), whereas Dhoni would be about borderline top 15. Am I being too harsh on Dhoni's keeping skills? Maybe, but that's how I see it, so he doesn't make the top 10 for me.

Once again, I freely confess that as a keeper myself I tend to be biased towards the "pure keepers" in my list.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.
And I certainly have to disagree on Boucher being a "Pure Keeper".

MFC, now before we settle this on disagreement,
What about Dhoni being a successful wicket keeper captain? His overall value to the side as a keeper? It has to be noted at this point, that Andy Flower gave up Zimbabwe's captaincy mid-way. Kumar Sangakkara never kept in tests when he was captain. Brendan McCullum gave up the gloves when he was promoted in the batting order. No other modern day keeper captained his side in so many matches with Dhoni's success rate. Besides his pretty good batting skills for a keeper, and good enough wicket keeping, I think his record as captain, his ability to manage the multiple roles in such a demanding environment, should make Dhoni one of the first automatic choices in their

sirfredperry wrote:JDizzle - Yes, England had a good bowling line-up in 05 and the ball swung convenientaly often. But it showed what could happen to Gilly's batting if those above failed CONSISTENTLY. I think he would have made runs in any team, but not as many - or attractively - as he did for the ultra-strong Aussies.

I agree he wouldn't have made them as attractively, but I am not sure about if he would have made less. He might have made more as he probably would have batted above 7 in another side (he was certainly good enough) and he might have been given more chance to bat and accumulate more runs than he has already. I think he was a good enough player to adapt to the situation, and would have still got the runs he got but in a less flamboyant manner. Strangely enough this might decrease our thinking of him, if he came in and played a "regular" batsman, as the aura of Gilly is build around him changing the way keepers play and being able to take the game away from you in a matter of hours, see Perth 06/07 for some bad memories, but if he didn't have the luxury of being able to play like that even if he still got the same weight of runs for a lesser side it might decrease our thinking of him. It is an interesting one.

That is a very good point, Jdizzle, and I agree with what you're saying in its entirety.

msp83 wrote:MFC, now before we settle this on disagreement,
What about Dhoni being a successful wicket keeper captain? His overall value to the side as a keeper? It has to be noted at this point, that Andy Flower gave up Zimbabwe's captaincy mid-way. Kumar Sangakkara never kept in tests when he was captain. Brendan McCullum gave up the gloves when he was promoted in the batting order. No other modern day keeper captained his side in so many matches with Dhoni's success rate. Besides his pretty good batting skills for a keeper, and good enough wicket keeping, I think his record as captain, his ability to manage the multiple roles in such a demanding environment, should make Dhoni one of the first automatic choices in their

Aha, now this is indeed an excellent point. A wicket keeper has already a lot of responsibilities: needs to expect a catch/stumping every ball (yes this is to a point true of everyone, but once you see a batsman preparing a forward defensive shot and you're stationed at long-on for instance you can breathe a bit, not so when keeping wicket, you expect every ball to come to you), he's also the one who's best placed to see if the ball's doing anything, if his bowlers are tiring, etc. so needs anyhow to be some sort of unofficial vice-captain, and as mentioned before he's the heart-beat of the side. Now add to that the extra burdening of field placings, bowler changes, etc. and that's a huge responsibility. It's true that Dhoni's ability to combine all three roles is superb. I know that I never massively enjoyed captaining the side when keeping wicket, and had a tendency to let the game drift a bit too much (would change the field very little). Dhoni to his credit is a pretty pro-active captain (I often think he's too quick to change things, especially to turn defensive but that's another debate).

Your best point yet msp, and nearly enough to get Dhoni into the top 10, but I don't believe it's quite enough to replace any of them (and in fact, I would probably still have Bari and Kirmani ahead of him, so he comes in at n°13 now).

Hi Mad - for me, Dhoni just doesn't have the reliability factor. Nowhere near my top 20.

still a bit disapointed we're not allowed to go pre-war: would have loved to have found a place for Oldfield and Ames in there, also there was that other excellent Ausie keeper whose name I'm not sure of (something like "Blackham"?) who couldn't be too far away.

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Mad - for me, Dhoni just doesn't have the reliability factor. Nowhere near my top 20.

Dhoni was good in the tests played against Eng, although the results were all negative because of other factors but I dont know why you say that Dhoni is not reliable.
I understand that we r talking tests here but his innings in the WC finals clears the all doubts including reliability.

Also Dhoni has played 100 less tests than Healy who is at no. 1 for most of the posters. Dhoni has scored 5 hundreds whereas Healy scored total of 4 hundreds in his career. Healy has 366 catches whereas Dhoni already has 172 catches (not counting WI match). Dhoni has kept to two high quality spinners Kumble and Bhajji. I dont understand what does reliability mean to you?

wow wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Mad - for me, Dhoni just doesn't have the reliability factor. Nowhere near my top 20.

Dhoni was good in the tests played against Eng, although the results were all negative because of other factors but I dont know why you say that Dhoni is not reliable.
I understand that we r talking tests here but his innings in the WC finals clears the all doubts including reliability.

No he wasn't, his keeping was dreadful (someone said minor county standard and that's probably about right), missing simple takes, giving away byes left, right and centre and a few missed chances along the way too. Like I said, it's this technical fault he has which means when his hands are tired he really struggles, more so when the ball's nipping around. His batting was also pretty awful in three out of four tests, constantly getting out driving at balls well wide of off stump early in his innings. His captaincy was mostly too defensive (though with his bowlers he didn't have that much choice I guess).

HOWEVER
1) His attitude was exemplary throughout. Didn't whinge about missing players, always fronted up in post-match/day interviews. The Bell incident was top class too.
2) It's one very poor series, and a pretty rare blemish I think on a fine career so far.

On the Dhoni vs Healy debate
1) Dhoni has played 62 tests to Healy's 119, so defo not 100 less.
2) Don't think anyone's suggesting Heals was a better bat.
3) Comparing their keeping, I'm sorry but Dhoni isn't even on the same planet as Healy in this respect.
4) Most people have Gilly (better bat and keeper than Dhoni) or Knott/Evans (not even in the same solar system as Dhoni keeping-wise) as n°1.

Have just checked the records, and Knott actually averaged a thoroughly respectable 32.75 with the bat. Surely a shoe-in for the n°1 spot?

[quote="Mad for Chelsea"]

wow wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Hi Mad - for me, Dhoni just doesn't have the reliability factor. Nowhere near my top 20.

Dhoni was good in the tests played against Eng, although the results were all negative because of other factors but I dont know why you say that Dhoni is not reliable.
I understand that we r talking tests here but his innings in the WC finals clears the all doubts including reliability.

Have you watched any of Healy's macthes. I agree that he held the record for most dismissals once but that does not make him greatest. He was keeping to 2 all time leading bowlers Warne and Mcgrath. When did Healy had to toil in the field for 2 days as bowlers failed to get wickets? I presume not in lot of matches.
Dhoni has done remarakably well in keeping to Kumble and Bhajji. It is because he does not come across as a technically astute keeper it does not meach that his keeping is minor county standards ( I dont think minor county will even read bhajji, let alone keep to him). His batting in the same league as Gilly or how else do you explain his ODI records.

I have seen Healy play and I will tell you even he dropped catches and missed byes.

KNott played 95 tests socred 4 hundreds and 30 fifites, 250 ct and 29 st.
Dhoni 62 tests 6 hundreds 23 fifties, 172 ct and 26 st. Even if Dhoni takes 2 catches per match he will come close to Knott. just because this poll is taking place in UK it does not make Not a no. 1 wk.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/5390.html

Thats the no. 1 keeper for you, a complete package.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/55427.html

And he will be no. 2 again taking the allround performance of a WK

And Dhoni can easily be fitted as no. 3.

My point was solely about the England tour wow. Dhoni's keeping was awful there, there's no other word for it. Not only the dropped catches and byes, but he often fumbled straightforward takes, for an international level keeper it was dreadful. For a county-level keeper it would have been very poor, so yeah, minor county standard is about right (for that tour only, certainly not in general). Harbajan played two tests and beat the bat about five times all told, so wasn't that challenging to keep too on that tour.

Yes, I did watch Healy, he was an absolute genius standing up to Warne (who would be far harder to read than Harby), and missed incredibly few chances (not saying he didn't miss any, he did, but I'd wager he missed less in his 119 tests than Dhoni has in his 62 to date).

Lastly, we're talking tests here, not ODIs. Dhoni as an ODI batsmen is amongst the best of all time, but in test matches he doesn't match up to Gilly at all IMO.

Mad - very good post.

As I said before, this is by far the most difficult category. I've currently got 5 definites and about 15 possibles. To me, they need to be at least a good keeper to get into my top 20. I'll then consider other factors as to whether they break into the top 10; Healy should be one who does.

As for Dhoni, have a look at the records for the last England series. In just the first innings of the first test in England this summer Dhoni conceded 14 byes. Throughout the whole of the five match Ashes series here in 1972, Alan Knott conceded 5 byes. That's what reliability means to me, wow.

wow wrote:KNott played 95 tests socred 4 hundreds and 30 fifites, 250 ct and 29 st.
Dhoni 62 tests 6 hundreds 23 fifties, 172 ct and 26 st. Even if Dhoni takes 2 catches per match he will come close to Knott. just because this poll is taking place in UK it does not make Not a no. 1 wk.

oh come on! even mentioning Knott and Dhoni in the same sentence when talking about wicket-keeping is an insult to Knott. With statistics you can argue that Kevin Pietersen is a better batsman than Neil Harvey, and plenty of other strange things. Knott scored 5 hundreds by the way, and averages 5 runs less than Dhoni per innings. Pretty sure he makes those up in byes, and that's without factoring in missed chances. Did you see Knott keep? If not try to get hold of some footage of him keeping to Underwood on a sticky pitch (they were uncovered in those days).

guildfordbat wrote:Mad - very good post.

As I said before, this is by far the most difficult category. I've currently got 5 definites and about 15 possibles. To me, they need to be at least a good keeper to get into my top 20. I'll then consider other factors as to whether they break into the top 10; Healy should be one who does.

which post was that?

and if it's not too indiscrete who are your five definites? I'd guess Knott, Evans, Gilly and a couple of others?

Well stats always tell you something, I am not sure about Neil Harvey's test record but if KP has a better test record than he is better anyway. A lot of English might give KP unnecessary criticism but it was KP alongwith Flintoff who got you an ashes win after a long long time, since Gooch ( I am not sure).

I am not sure if comparing byes in 2 eras is wise as during Knott's era a wide was one bye but now if it is a 4 then it becomes 5 byes. Correct or not?

You two are not doing a bad job with complementing each other.

wow wrote:
I am not sure if comparing byes in 2 eras is wise as during Knott's era a wide was one bye but now if it is a 4 then it becomes 5 byes. Correct or not?

incorrect on this one. If a wide goes for extra runs they all count as wides. What is true is that a wide which went to the boundary in Knott's day would have counted as 4 wides, whereas now it counts as 5 wides. No byes in any case.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63794.html

One of the random matches of Healy's in difficult conditions. using the same criteria look at the second innings of the match, Healy was awawful gave away 18 byes in one innings. I am sure that this particular inning will be good enough to take him off that list.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

wow wrote:
I am not sure if comparing byes in 2 eras is wise as during Knott's era a wide was one bye but now if it is a 4 then it becomes 5 byes. Correct or not?

incorrect on this one. If a wide goes for extra runs they all count as wides. What is true is that a wide which went to the boundary in Knott's day would have counted as 4 wides, whereas now it counts as 5 wides. No byes in any case.

Apologies. I don't know what I was thinking. You are right on this one.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63796.html

11 byes in this match. A keeper will be best tetsed in alien conditions and where they have not kept for long. Dhoni was facing the same situation when he came to England. His performance is much better on Indian wickets. Also I will tell you that Dhoni kept well to Murali too when he played for Chennai.

LOL Reminds me of myself, in not checking out all the facts before posting. After this i always will