Martin Johnson quits...

by Davie Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:03

... RFU Statement due any time now

by XR Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:08

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8893528/Martin-Johnson-to-resign-from-role-as-England-manager.html

link to the story

by wales606 Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:12

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15756480.stm

by cabbagesandbrussels Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:15

yup its official. I think it's a massive shame. Rob Andrew to hold a Press Conference at 4 - hopefully he'll follow Johnno...

by beshocked Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:16

Now it's time to celebrate! Yahoo

Now just need the rest of the England management to fall on their swords too.

by Bring_The_Boom Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:19

Thank goodness for that. Let's get Mallet signed up sharpish.

by XR Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:22

Feel a bit sorry for MJ. His appointment was based on sentiments rather than sense by the RFU, did the best he could but he was never the answer

by cabbagesandbrussels Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:22

beshocked - I firmly believe that with a decent coaching team behind him, Johnno could have and would have been a success.

I would have got rid of Smith, Ford and Wells and let Johnno choose anyone he wanted. Instead the RFU have gone for the easy option and got rid of the guy who, despite a poor World Cup was getting better...and still Rob Andrew still refuses to take any of the blame in the fundamental problems in English rugby.

He's a total to*ser and if he had half the dignity of Johnno, we would be in better shape as a Union than we are now.

I'm literally seething.

by OzT Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:26

Unlucky MJ, he should've had more time and support, not booted out like that.

I think he was just feeling his way in that position, which is quite different form being a skipper of a side. If he stayed he would be the authoritive figure that he was as skipper, and all that distracting stuff in NZ would never have happened, and probably the squad would have performed better on the field.

As for tactics etc, he could have brought in people who knows. but I felt the squad would have responded positively to his lead at the helm.

by cabbagesandbrussels Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:28

The only person apart from Rob Andrew who will be happy, is the other oxygen thief Danny Cipriani....

by nickj Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:29

I feel for Johnno, and it appears as though Andrew was central to the decision.

What a palaver eh!

Woodward shouldnt go anywhere near it, neither should Henry. I reckon it'll be a toss up between Eddie Jones and Nick Mallet.

What a shame nobody though of asking Edwards a couple of days ago. The words 'p*ss up' and 'brewery' come to mind.

by LuvSports! Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:31

for some reason i thought it woullld be fate to see johnno lead england onto another world cup truimph, more likely in 2015, as a coach so I am a bit crestfallen.
I just wonder what stage in the competition we reached would of made Johnno stay? semi's? final? It is a shame but hopefully this wont tarnish the great man's reputation as one of the Great's of England rugby, im sure it wont!

by **rodders** Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:37

Anyone else think the RFU haven't handled this all particularly well?..... Whistle

I feel sorry for Johnson. The World cup was a fiasco for England but he did win the 6N and take England back up the rankings. He, reluctantly or not, brought in younger players and England are a better side now than they've been for a while. He didn't do a great job but he wasn't bad either.

He obviously had no option but to resign given that the RFU wouldn't back him.

by cabbagesandbrussels Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:39

RFU - Royal F**k Up

by caoimhincentre Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:41

Harsh on Johnson.
Forced our the door by RFU in tatters.
He has actually done a decent job for england and those that deny this need to open eyes.

He guided an average team to a six nations title, Players let him down with their behavour in the world cup (they are after all grown men and should have some common sense), media for some reason had it in for him during the world cup because they wanted england to play better rugby.

Fact of the matter Johnson realised england didnt have teh players to play the expansive game everyone was looking for.

His treatment as coach in the last 12 months will have potential coaches looking at the role with raised eyebrows

by funnyExiledScot Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:42

It's the right decision from Johnson.

The RFU are in disarray but in any case, he fell short of what was required from him. He had the ultimate decisions on selection and the management of the squad, and in both cases he got it wrong.

Watching the RFU find his successor won't be pretty though. Let the politics commence.

by hugehandoff Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:44

This is the correct thing to do, but yet another sad day for English rugby Crying or Very sad

MJ should never have been appointed in the first place as that was more about hope than realistic expectation. We need a proven manager who will come in and select his own coaching team. If we don't replace MJ with someone better then this will all go horribly wrong and with RA still there that is no certainty. I would be happy with Mallet, Jake White or SCW. As RA presided over MJ's selection I believe he should go and hopefully that will be annouced at his 4pm press conference.

by nathan Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:46

beshocked wrote:Now it's time to celebrate!

Now just need the rest of the England management to fall on their swords too.

Pathetic....

by nathan Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:47

I wanted MJ to stay but replace some of the coaches. It's a shame.

by HammerofThunor Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:49

hugehandoff wrote:This is the correct thing to do, but yet another sad day for English rugby MJ should never have been appointed in the first place as that was more about hope than realistic expectation. We need a proven manager who will come in and select his own coaching team. If we don't replace MJ with someone better then this will all go horribly wrong and with RA still there that is no certainty. I would be happy with Mallet, Jake White or SCW. As RA presided over MJ's selection I believe he should go and hopefully that will be annouced at his 4pm press conference.

Rob Andrew wanted to keep Ashton. Martyn Thomas was the one who forced through the selection of Johnson.

by bedfordwelsh Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:49

RFU ought to be ashamed, they need to have a long hard look at themselves and realise that its the muppets above Jonno that needs sorting. Getting rid of him won't sort out the mess the RFU are currently in.

Senior players need to hang their heads in shame as their behaviour in the WC was appalling.

How long will it be before we have the 'bring back Jonno' posts appearing when England don't get nay better on the pithc and the RFU are still cocking it up off the pitch.

by **rodders** Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:53

I think this is a bit selfish of Johnson to resign at a time when the international rugby community is still trying to come to terms with Sam Warburtons red card.

We could really do without another big rugby story right now.

by cabbagesandbrussels Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:54

roddersm wrote:I think this is a bit selfish of Johnson to resign at a time when the international rugby community is still trying to come to terms with Sam Warburtons red card.

We could really do without another big rugby story right now.

"International rugby community" meaning Welsh sore losers....

by beshocked Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:55

cabbagesandbrussels I would give Rob Andrew the boot too.

Clear out all the dead wood for a fresh start - that's what is needed.

Jake White or Nick Mallet would be fine. Not Clive.

Martin Johnson had to go for various reasons -

1.England had a poor world cup.
2.His loyality was unfounded - Hape, Wilkinson,Youngs etc.
3.Didn't keep his troops in line - controversy reined surpreme.
4.England didn't improve under his leadership
5.The new players haven't moved up a gear.
6.Lack of leadership
7.Too inexperienced
8.Best for him to leave before things get worse.

caoimhincentre you are deluded if you think Johnson was good.

He had a good 6 nations? He had an armchair ride in my opinion.

England beat a woeful Wales in the first 6 nations match. No one remembers how rubbish Wales were a year ago.

Destroyed Italy at home which isn't that difficult.

Scraped wins vs France and Scotland at home. Not that hard to do.

Got smashed by Ireland.

Just about got through the pool stages of the world cup but limped out in the quarter finals with a whimper.

by **rodders** Wed Nov 16 2011, 11:59

beshocked wrote:caoimhincentre you are deluded if you think Johnson was good.

He had a good 6 nations? He had an armchair ride in my opinion.

England beat a woeful Wales in the first 6 nations match. No one remembers how rubbish Wales were a year ago.

Destroyed Italy at home which isn't that difficult.

Scraped wins vs France and Scotland at home. Not that hard to do.

Got smashed by Ireland.

Just about got through the pool stages of the world cup but limped out in the quarter finals with a whimper.

Beshocked all that is true but look at his starting point. Compare this 6N to the previous two, which was better?

by **LondonTiger** Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:01

Appointing Johnson in the first place was born out of emotion - and was not the right decision. This was compounded by then insisting he kept a coaching team who had proven they were pants.

It is a shame that he has now gone however as there was some progress and I am sure he had learnt a lot. Any one else coming in - no matter how experienced - will now have to start all over again learning how to handle the myriad of self interest that makes up the english game.

I suspect though that MJ made the decision himself. He decided to treat the players as adults and they completely betrayed his trust in them. I am not sure he could have gone back to work with them.

All in all, with the benefit of hindsight things could have been done differently - but that is often the case.

Oh and beshocked - in so many areas I tend to support you - but on this topic you always come across as small-minded and vindictive.

by HammerofThunor Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:08

beshocked wrote:cabbagesandbrussels I would give Rob Andrew the boot too.

Clear out all the dead wood for a fresh start - that's what is needed.

Jake White or Nick Mallet would be fine. Not Clive.

Martin Johnson had to go for various reasons -

1.England had a poor world cup.
2.His loyality was unfounded - Hape, Wilkinson,Youngs etc. - unfounded loyalty in Youngs? He played him while not recovered.
3.Didn't keep his troops in line - controversy reined surpreme. - he gave the troops the responsibility for their own actions and they let him down
4.England didn't improve under his leadership - their results suggest they did
5.The new players haven't moved up a gear.
6.Lack of leadership - on the pitch, there were expereinced players who provided no leadership but they should have. It was at halftime when the coaches had input when things were turned around.
7.Too inexperienced
8.Best for him to leave before things get worse.

caoimhincentre you are deluded if you think Johnson was good.

He had a good 6 nations? He had an armchair ride in my opinion.

England beat a woeful Wales in the first 6 nations match. No one remembers how rubbish Wales were a year ago.

Destroyed Italy at home which isn't that difficult.

Scraped wins vs France and Scotland at home. Not that hard to do.

Got smashed by Ireland.

Just about got through the pool stages of the world cup but limped out in the quarter finals with a whimper.

Not that fussed about him going. Would have liked him to stay but it all depends on who we get in now. If it's someone better then great, if worse then terrible.

by flankertye Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:08

I thought he should have stayed, we had some good results. Just needed new coaches and taken the opportunity to blood some good exciting players.

by nathan Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:08

beshocked wrote:cabbagesandbrussels I would give Rob Andrew the boot too.

Clear out all the dead wood for a fresh start - that's what is needed.

Jake White or Nick Mallet would be fine. Not Clive.

Martin Johnson had to go for various reasons -

1.England had a poor world cup.
2.His loyality was unfounded - Hape, Wilkinson,Youngs etc.
3.Didn't keep his troops in line - controversy reined surpreme.
4.England didn't improve under his leadership
5.The new players haven't moved up a gear.
6.Lack of leadership
7.Too inexperienced
8.Best for him to leave before things get worse.

caoimhincentre you are deluded if you think Johnson was good.

He had a good 6 nations? He had an armchair ride in my opinion.

England beat a woeful Wales in the first 6 nations match. No one remembers how rubbish Wales were a year ago.

Destroyed Italy at home which isn't that difficult.

Scraped wins vs France and Scotland at home. Not that hard to do.

Got smashed by Ireland.

Just about got through the pool stages of the world cup but limped out in the quarter finals with a whimper.

you missed out 9 mate... Not enough Sarries...

by munkian Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:13

Dick Dastardly for the new England coach - *crosses fingers*

It would be worth it just for his war of words with the English tabloids

Or Divvy - he needs a job thumbsup

by beshocked Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:15

Roddersm better in what way? England's performance or overall 6 nations quality?

I am small minded and vindictive when it comes to MJ devil

Okay LondonTiger I see your point. Right I will give a more balanced view (my real view).

I genuinely don't think MJ should have been England manager/coach whatever. Not because he is Leicester. It's because I don't think he is/was the best man for the job.

Simply too inexperienced. Shown to be out of his depth in my opinion.

I genuinely don't actually mind Leicester players. Pick them if they are the best. I have advocated having Anthony Allen as an inside centre. I think Manu Tuilagi is the best outside cenre available for England selection.

He is a quality player, I question his attitude but as a player he is awesome. That try against Saracens at WR, painful as it was-excellent.

Flood should have started fly half vs France etc.

He should have tried more to solve the glaring weaknesses in the backrow and inside centre.

My honest feeling is I don't feel England has progressed under Johnson's management.

England played very well against Italy and Australia. What happened in between?

by Mr Bounce Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:18

Poor selection, strange decisions, favouritism. But then again we said this from the start.

We judged him on his World Cup, which was not good. He has fallen on his sword. PLEASE let's have a new set of coaches too or we will be utterly lost. Clear out the cupboard and start again.

by beshocked Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:20

I feel the new players into the team injected life into England but this new energy wasn't nurtured.

E.g. when Ashton,Foden arrived on the scene first they played with flair and nothing holding them back. Flashforward to the world cup and they simply weren't the same.

It's as if the England management suck the life and freshness out of the young guns.

Plus where's the leadership?

The England management should be protecting these players from the limelight.Success can go the head. E.g. Manu Tuilagi,Chris Ashton.

by screamingaddabs Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:25

Who is going to appoint the next coach? Is there anyone at the RFU who will be/should be there in 6 months time. It's a farce. MJ didn't do brilliantly, the resignation/sacking based on performance is fair enough, though keeping him on would've been too in my opinion, it was 50-50 in my eyes.

The problem is that a new coach will come in followed by a new lot at the RFU. How backward is that?! Surely you get the top sorted first?

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:30

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:I would have got rid of Smith, Ford and Wells and let Johnno choose anyone he wanted.

But Johnson could have chosen anyone he wanted when he first became manager. If they were poor, some fault must lie with Johnson for keeping them in situ or bringing them on board, just as he should be held responsible for picking poor or out-of-form players.

by sirtidychris Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:31

nickj wrote:I feel for Johnno, and it appears as though Andrew was central to the decision.

What a palaver eh!

Woodward shouldnt go anywhere near it, neither should Henry. I reckon it'll be a toss up between Eddie Jones and Nick Mallet.

What a shame nobody though of asking Edwards a couple of days ago. The words 'p*ss up' and 'brewery' come to mind.

Actually nick setting up and paying the tab for and english p*ss up in a nz brewery was about the only thing the RFU did organise!!!

People seem to forget that one of the reasons we ended up with MJ was because no one else wanted it ! the RFU are impossible task masters and the world of coaches knows it thats why woodward left in 2004.

Its funny how OTT everything has been since the RWC, basically england won the six nations, won every game in their group having the least tries scored against them and then lost to a team that almost won the whole tournament. It wasn't a total shambles any team can lose to france on thier day (the off pitch stuff is media hyped drivel that everyones seems to have bought into) .

Like mike tindall I think it is right for johnno to go just because the recent fall out has been soo great... i think the fans need to see new faces all the way through the RFU for faith to be restored....but the manner in which johnno and mike have been disposed is unfair to two great servants to english rugby.

by Eustace H Plimsoll Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:44

Its funny how OTT everything has been since the RWC, basically england
won the six nations, won every game in their group having the least
tries scored against them and then lost to a team that almost won the
whole tournament. It wasn't a total shambles any team can lose to france
on thier day (the off pitch stuff is media hyped drivel that everyones
seems to have bought into) .

Exactly this. Couldn't have out it better myself. It's the typical English sports mentality – we're either the best in the world or an absolute disgrace. I think the post-WC reaction has been way over the top.

I didn't want Jonno to go – he's improved England. We've played some good rugby under him. He also seemed to be learning.

He made some frustrating selection decisions – in particular doggedly persisting with the Hape Tindall axis in midfield, only to then change things around at the last minute, was bizarre.

Overall though I would have liked him to stay. Consistency is underrated in my opinion.

Having said that I'm also a bit excited to see who's appointed next and what sort of team they pick. There are a lot of really exciting young players around and I think with the right management England could (maybe even should) be right up at the top of world rugby again in the not-too-distant future.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:45

sirtidychris wrote:the manner in which johnno and mike have been disposed is unfair to two great servants to english rugby.

Johnno isn't being disposed of, he's quitting. What was unfair was expecting a great player to be a great manager despite having no experience whatsoever of the role.

by Eustace H Plimsoll Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:47

I should add I'm glad John Wells is (presumably?) going. England's breakdown work hasn't been up to scratch in important games for a while now. We seem to be behind other teams in this department.

by TrailApe Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:49

While I have played rugby all my life I don't know much about it.

What I mean by that is I can watch a game and come away with 'that was a good game' whilst others on this board will come away with 'such and such was excellent, thingy was good in the tight, whotsit really had some good angles'

However, I may not know much but I do know that the RFU lacks integrity and axing Johno is a bad move and is something they will regret.

I feel a sense of forboding and have just been hit by a wave of 1970's deja vu.

Wonder if Johno fancies a job up in Newcastle?

by TrailApe Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:50

Johnno isn't being disposed of, he's quitting

Ah but did he jump or was he pushed?

by flankertye Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:54

Johnsons many things, but he's not a quitter. I think he was pushed.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:55

TrailApe wrote:
Johnno isn't being disposed of, he's quitting

Ah but did he jump or was he pushed?

He's jumping.

by cabbagesandbrussels Wed Nov 16 2011, 12:57

"The position of Johnson's backroom staff of forwards coach John Wells, defence coach Mike Ford, scrum coach Graham Rowntree and attack coach Brian Smith is not clear".

to quote the Beeb sport website...

by flankertye Wed Nov 16 2011, 13:00

Keep Roundtree.
Get Ellis in for defence.
I'd be tempted to say Dorian west for forwards.
I haven't a clue on decent attack coaches I'm afriad..

by TrailApe Wed Nov 16 2011, 13:02

I haven't a clue on decent attack coaches I'm afriad..

Get Guscott in - he knows everything.

Apparently

Whistle

by yappysnap Wed Nov 16 2011, 13:04

Apparently Rowntree is being sized up by wales...

by bedfordwelsh Wed Nov 16 2011, 13:09

I haven't a clue on decent attack coaches I'm afriad

Brian Ashton maybe Wink

by flankertye Wed Nov 16 2011, 13:11

Wouldn't mind Ashton actually Wink

Whats he doing these days? Apart from writing articles for the independent.

by doctor_grey Wed Nov 16 2011, 13:12

To me, a real shame.

I bet the RFU go after Saints Jim Mallinder and Dorian West. However, those two guys seem too well grounded to submit themselves to the turbulance which is the RFU at this moment. In a year or so after the next manager/coach fails, perhaps.

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