Leinster vs Glasgow RDS Sunday 12:45

First topic message reminder :

Right lads,

Second weekend of HCup action is here, first home game in this years competition for Leinster.
Glasgow did well to beat Bath at home but conceeded a losing bonus point while Leinster managed to earn a draw in the south of France. Neither team performed amazingly by all accounts but there is a lot riding on this game all of a sudden, a loss for Leinster and they could find themselves in huge trouble considering as the competition goes on Montpellier may show less and less interest in winning games in Europe.

LEINSTER TEAM ANNOUNCED

15: Rob Kearney
14: Isa Nacewa
13: Eoin O'Malley
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Eoin Reddan

1: Heinke van der Merwe
2: Sean Cronin
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Kevin McLaughlin
7: Sean O'Brien
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Richardt Strauss
17: Cian Healy
18: Nathan White
19: Rhys Ruddock
20: Shane Jennings
21: Isaac Boss
22: Ian Madigan
23: Fionn Carr


GLASGOW TEAM ANNOUNCED

15 Stuart Hogg
14 Tommy Seymour
13 Peter Murchie
12 Graeme Morrison
11 Colin Shaw
10 Duncan Weir
9 Chris Cusiter
1 Ryan Grant
2 Pat MacArthur
3 Mike Cusack
4 Richie Gray
5 Al Kellock (Captain)
6 Rob Harley
7 John Barclay
8 Ryan Wilson

SUBSTITUTES

16 Finlay Gillies
17 Jon Welsh
18 Ed Kalman
19 Tom Ryder
20 Henry Pyrgos
21 Chris Fusaro
22 Federico Aramburu
23 Troy Nathan

Who is gonna win this one?
Do Glasgow have the talent to beat the European Champions?
Are Leinster enough of an attacking threat without BOD and with nacewa on the wing?

Thoughts on the score, the teams, anything at all is very welcome.

Also please do vote!
Wasn't arsed doing draws with bonus points and LBP and 4try bonus point results! Sorry!

To an extent I agree with you Rory, although he generally thrives in space and he will get more of it at 13 and he can use his step and acceleration to get on the outside of people. His passing is quite good I think, timing wise excellent and a lovely flat pass but his hands aren't very quick.

His tackling style is also more suited to 13 and he takes the ankles doing that at 13 is 'ok' but doing it at 12 is giving the attacker too many options for an offload.

VDM instead of Healy- Not a great call IMO would prefer Healy if he is fit

Cronin instead of Strauss- Interesting one are we seeing a Reddan/Boss situation?

Toner instead of Browne- Delighted!

McL instead of Jenno- Not wild, McL hasn't been playing great and Jenno helps SOB so much.

Reddan instead of Boss- Good call IMO, his passing to Sexton is better.

O'Malley in for injured McFadden (dead leg)- Will bring something different could be interesting to see how he does.

Carr on the bench (no Conway or D.Kearney)- Delighted at this too

Ruddock and Jenno on bench=McL covering lock- Very delighted that McL is being used as lock cover although would prefer him on the bench

SOB is a wrecking machine but he is not a 7, in the traditional sense of the word. He is an 8 or a 6 renowned for his bruising carriers and bone rattling tackles. Expect Leinster to have a torrid time against Barclay and Harley at the breakdown on Sunday.

Why do Leinster and to a lesser extent Ireland play SOB at 7? He was really shown up against Wales by Warburton at the breakdown. He is a fabulous player no doubt about it but putting him at 7 and trying to fulfil that role is a waste of his talents.

Seeing both teams I reckon Glasgow have a chance in this one. Leinster will struggle to get quick ball I think as the breakdown will be a shambles and Glasgow have the edge in the Line and Scrum. Leinster still have the strength in the backs though.

I still think home advantage will be enough to see Leinster through though.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:SOB is a wrecking machine but he is not a 7, in the traditional sense of the word. He is an 8 or a 6 renowned for his bruising carriers and bone rattling tackles. Expect Leinster to have a torrid time against Barclay and Harley at the breakdown on Sunday.

Why do Leinster and to a lesser extent Ireland play SOB at 7? He was really shown up against Wales by Warburton at the breakdown. He is a fabulous player no doubt about it but putting him at 7 and trying to fulfil that role is a waste of his talents.

Seeing both teams I reckon Glasgow have a chance in this one. Leinster will struggle to get quick ball I think as the breakdown will be a shambles and Glasgow have the edge in the Line and Scrum. Leinster still have the strength in the backs though.

I still think home advantage will be enough to see Leinster through though.

Disagree re:SOB at 7.
He is not a natural 7 granted but he can do everything he does at 6 or 8 the exact same when he is at 7 he just needs someone there to clear rucks like crazy. Here in lies the issue.

McL does not clear rucks the way Ferris or Jennings does.

SOB isn't a bad 7 he just needs someone like Ferris or Jenno there to do some work on the ground.
Battle of the 7's wasn't where Ireland lost to Wales it was in midfield and the fact we could not get over the gainline as we had literally 3 ball carrying options and that was it.

SOB is a good 7 albeit not a 'traditional' he needs a 6 who will attack rucks in the way Jennings and Ferris do. It's the inclusion of McL not the placing of SOB that is the issue

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Why do Leinster and to a lesser extent Ireland play SOB at 7? He was really shown up against Wales by Warburton at the breakdown.

Did you actually watch that game? Neither Warburton nor O'Brien won a single turnover. Ireland concede more turnovers 14 to Wales 9 but thats not surprising because we were chasing the game. Ireland dominated the breakdown for most of the game and won 96% of rucks to Wales 92%.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote: SOB is a wrecking machine but he is not a 7.

Agreed

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Why do.............Ireland play SOB at 7? He was really shown up against Wales by Warburton at the breakdown.

Because with no David Wallace Ireland don't have a 7 good enough.
Warburton did expose this but there are ony 4 teams, with a player good enough , to show up this shortful.
Wales, France, New Zealand And Australia (Warburton, Dusatoir, McCaw and Pocock).
In addition playing SOB at 7 allows Ireland to play Heaslip and Ferris as well - the alternative is to drop one. For me that would be Heaslip but a close call.

Watch O'Mahoney at Munster he looks as if he might have the skill set to be a future Ireland 7.

I don't think he's a bad 7 either. What I'm saying is it's a waste of his talents. He would be much better as a receiver with ball in hand rather than rucking and mauling.

The man is a monster. He should be at the bottom of every ruck after smashing through a dozen tackles not fumbling about in them like what a 7 should be doing.

They're all just numbers Radge.

When Munsters back row was actually good we had.

#6 - trying to slow down the ball in every ruck, making a nuisance of himself, linking up with backline - Alan Quinlan

#7 - primary ball carrier, excellent leg strenght and good in contact - David Wallace

#8 - aggressive player who'll hit tackles and rucks hard and a bit of a hot head - Denis Leamy

They are numbers but their positions influence the style of play.

A 7 is placed on the open side of the scrum for a reason. When the ball gets passed out the backs the 7 should be the 1st on the scene ready to clear out or ruck for the ball. 2nd in there should be either the 8 or someone else as neccessary. The 7 should 9 times out of 10 always be first on the scene. For instance I have never seen a 7 pick up out of a Scrum something that SOB would excell at.

Watch the best 7s at the moment Warburton, McCaw, Pocock and you'll see why the positioning of the 7 matters, especially off the Scrum.

SOB should be at 8 IMO with Heaslip going into the 7 berth. SOB picking up at the base of the scrum and rampaging forward would be a potent weapon for Leinster and Ireland.

just my opinion though.

That is one serious bench. What I call impact.

G wrote:That is one serious bench. What I call impact.

Ruddock? Madigan? Carr? Boss? White? - to be honest its not exactly gonna terrify anyone. Healy and Strauss are two great guys to come on and Jennings introduction should improve Sean O'Briens performance but I think thats a bit of an exaggeration.

In a HC match Stag? Show me another bench besides Toulouses this weekend with more impact than that.

Jennings- multiple cup winner, Leisceter days ect...
Carr- one of the top wingers in the ML last year
Boss- International SH and more than dangerous in the right conditions
Madigan- Watch out for this one. He'll get his chance
Ruddock- Bandied about alot but, future Leinster captain? Can t say he wont make an impact.

Look at the effect Leisnters banch had last week. I was at the game. Made a savage difference. Same will happen here.

I'd say we'll scure the BP when JS empties the bench on 65.

With regards to SOB as an openside, people seem to forget he actually does make quite a few turnovers. He is actually very good in the rucks, and he is a smart player however most people just seem to notice his barnstorming runs. I think even his runs are best when he takes the ball at pace as a support player, as he isn't just as good at offloading as Ferris/Heaslip would be, but when he takes the ball at pace he is very, very difficult to stop and makes huge ground.

To me he could be the perfect openside for Ireland if paired with the right combination. I think he Ferris and Heaslip are actually a great combination, however Heaslip must find his form again. On form he is a devastating runner, and it has nothing to do with him having to be in more rucks when there is no Jennings. That didn't matter when he played for Ireland with Wallace at 7.

I like the Glasgow side selected. Pleased that Dewey is out, although surprised that Murchie has leapfrogged Nathan at 13. Don't feel strongly, but Nathan to me is a better bet.

No Beattie on the bench. Clearly still on the naughty step for something.

Am delighted Jennings is on the bench. Big chance for Barclay to make a nuisance of himself.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:With regards to SOB as an openside, people seem to forget he actually does make quite a few turnovers. He is actually very good in the rucks, and he is a smart player however most people just seem to notice his barnstorming runs. I think even his runs are best when he takes the ball at pace as a support player, as he isn't just as good at offloading as Ferris/Heaslip would be, but when he takes the ball at pace he is very, very difficult to stop and makes huge ground.

To me he could be the perfect openside for Ireland if paired with the right combination. I think he Ferris and Heaslip are actually a great combination, however Heaslip must find his form again. On form he is a devastating runner, and it has nothing to do with him having to be in more rucks when there is no Jennings. That didn't matter when he played for Ireland with Wallace at 7.

I think most people would agree that he could make a fine openside, but is it the correct use of resources...?

G wrote:In a HC match Stag? Show me another bench besides Toulouses this weekend with more impact than that.

16 Denis Fogarty
17 Marcus Horan
18 John Hayes
19 Donnacha O'Callaghan
20 Denis Leamy
21 Tomas O'Leary
22 Ian Keatley
23 Will Chambers

I know that the likes of Castrogiovanni and Ben Youngs are only on the bench for Tigers against Ulster - don't know rest of bench.

G wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:With regards to SOB as an openside, people seem to forget he actually does make quite a few turnovers. He is actually very good in the rucks, and he is a smart player however most people just seem to notice his barnstorming runs. I think even his runs are best when he takes the ball at pace as a support player, as he isn't just as good at offloading as Ferris/Heaslip would be, but when he takes the ball at pace he is very, very difficult to stop and makes huge ground.

To me he could be the perfect openside for Ireland if paired with the right combination. I think he Ferris and Heaslip are actually a great combination, however Heaslip must find his form again. On form he is a devastating runner, and it has nothing to do with him having to be in more rucks when there is no Jennings. That didn't matter when he played for Ireland with Wallace at 7.

I think most people would agree that he could make a fine openside, but is it the correct use of resources...?

Yes because if everyone is fit the best backrowers in the country by a mile are Ferris, Heaslip, Wallace and O'Brien and Jennings is a distant 5th.

G wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:With regards to SOB as an openside, people seem to forget he actually does make quite a few turnovers. He is actually very good in the rucks, and he is a smart player however most people just seem to notice his barnstorming runs. I think even his runs are best when he takes the ball at pace as a support player, as he isn't just as good at offloading as Ferris/Heaslip would be, but when he takes the ball at pace he is very, very difficult to stop and makes huge ground.

To me he could be the perfect openside for Ireland if paired with the right combination. I think he Ferris and Heaslip are actually a great combination, however Heaslip must find his form again. On form he is a devastating runner, and it has nothing to do with him having to be in more rucks when there is no Jennings. That didn't matter when he played for Ireland with Wallace at 7.

I think most people would agree that he could make a fine openside, but is it the correct use of resources...?

I would have disagreed this time last year, but now I think it is the correct use of his resources and potentially his best position depending on who plays alongside him. That is the point I am making here, I think at 6/8 you need a player to make the hard yards and do the donkey work. Ferris is perfect for this, he will take the ball into contact making ground, he will tackle all those who move, and he will hit those rucks like a bulldozer. Heaslip also has an incredible work rate, and is a very dynamic player who can wreak havoc on the pitch (similar to Harinordoquy). However he must find form.

As for SOB I think he is the utility backrower for us, but I think 7 may be best for him. To me he is best in space, as he has got incredible pace for his size and obviously is a bulldozer on the pitch. I think he is the fastest of the 3. Ferris/Heaslip are a lot better at offloading than O'Brien, and O'Brien is best as a support player who will take the ball at pace and be incredibly hard to stop. He also is normally the first man to the tackle or ruck (as a good openside should be) and to me he reads the game very well. I think we potentially have the worlds best backrow, we just need to give it time to gel and for Heaslip to find form again.

I am happy enough with the team announced. Good to see Healy on the bench.

I thought Browne was decent enough last week so surprised he didn't make the bench(unless he is injured)

Good to see Carr in and around the squad too.

LEINSTER:

15: Rob Kearney
14: Isa Nacewa
13: Eoin O'Malley
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Eoin Reddan

1: Heinke van der Merwe
2: Sean Cronin
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Kevin McLaughlin
7: Sean O'Brien
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Richardt Strauss
17: Cian Healy
18: Nathan White
19: Rhys Ruddock
20: Shane Jennings
21: Isaac Boss
22: Ian Madigan
23: Fionn Carr

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:To an extent I agree with you Rory, although he generally thrives in space and he will get more of it at 13 and he can use his step and acceleration to get on the outside of people. His passing is quite good I think, timing wise excellent and a lovely flat pass but his hands aren't very quick.

His tackling style is also more suited to 13 and he takes the ankles doing that at 13 is 'ok' but doing it at 12 is giving the attacker too many options for an offload.

I think with his fantastic feet and his acceleration he would be able to create space for others though. If he developed a good offloading game and his distribution skills were up to it (something that can be developed over time, look at Nonu and how his playmaking skills has improved to be the best in the world), I think he could be the answer at 12.

He could also work on his tackling style I think. He may be small but I think he has the physicality. He isn't that much smaller than D'Arcy or BOD anyway.

I completely understand why O'Brien was at 7 for Ireland. It got our 3 best back rowers on the field. But he is a better 6. It better suits his main strength. Ball carrying. He's said so himself. Although he's happy to play anywhere and he's by no means a bad 7. Leinster have Jennings though so I don't understand why we have McLaughlin at 6 and SOB at 7. SOB, Jennings, Heaslip is our best backrow.

I think Cronin deserves a start after last weeks performance. A really good all round performance. Even his darts were fine. We have two really good hookers now. Hard to believe Jackman was 1st choice just the season before last. I also think McFadden is a 12 and O'Malley is a 13. That's where I want them to be played.

I think that Glasgow team can cause us trouble. I'm a big fan of Barclay and Cusiter and the 2nd row combo is probably better than ours. Now's the time for us to fire on all cylinders. Last week we showed our tenacity and inner steel but the overall performance was a bit meh.

Lads Im getting an email every time someone replies to this thread. How do I turn that off? Im not watching the thread or anything....

Much obliged...

Think you go into your profile Boyne, I remember doing it and it wasn't too tough.

It doesn't matter what position SOB plays in the backrow he just needs to have someone in the backrow who is going to get to rucks or rather prioritise rucking more than he will.

SOB is good on the ground much better than people give him credit for but his main strength is his carrying.

RE: O'Malley not sure he has the weight to make those body to body upright hits. He isn't THAT physical

Boyne, check the bottom right of the thread underneath the page numbers - are you sure it doesn't say 'Stop watching this topic'? If it does, press it

His body weight isn't that much less than our current centres though Pete. The question would be how he plays up against the likes of Roberts, SBW and Nonu etc, but only time would tell if his defence was up to it.

Winner, cheers asbo...

... and Pete

Nae wurries, G

Yeah that's true Rory and the other parts of his game warrant the exposure against guys like Roberts and Basteraud and big fellas like that so hopefully he will get an opportunity.

I'd love to see a combo of
Sexton-McFadden-O'Malley
I think that would be really exciting and would be constantly challenging the defensive line.

G

funnyExiledScot wrote:
No Beattie on the bench. Clearly still on the naughty step for something.

Was planned to be in the Squad for the game but has taken a knock to his back.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Yeah that's true Rory and the other parts of his game warrant the exposure against guys like Roberts and Basteraud and big fellas like that so hopefully he will get an opportunity.

I'd love to see a combo of
Sexton-McFadden-O'Malley
I think that would be really exciting and would be constantly challenging the defensive line.

G

Totally agree. Been calling for that since last year. Needs to happen a lot more in the PRO12, now Sexton is back.
Delighted to see Cronin get rewarded for last week. Had an immense impact. Puts it up to Strauss.
Also happy to see Toner starting. Has really beefed up his game and attitude this season. Player of the Month for Sept/Oct. He's improving.
Want to see O Malley lay down a big marker for the 13 spot. He could make it his. Then McFadden at 12 with Sexton at 10 and the jigsaw is complete.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Happy with that Warriors team - Murchie in for the injured Dewey is actually an improvement imo. Young Finlay Gillies replaces Hall on the bench and Jon Welsh returns from injury - just a shame that Moray Low couldn't do similar. With no Colin Gregor in sight, who will play at 10 if Weir takes a knock?

Hall is injured as well. Troy Nathan will cover 10, I would assume.

Not sure if Gegor and Eddie are away with the Sevens. I think someone said last week that is why they were not in the squad.

Low is playing for Ayr this week, so hopefully be back soon. Jackson's injury seems to be dragging on.

McFadden was unlucky last year. He was better than D'arcy. But I suspect Deccie wanted the D'arcy/O'Driscoll partnership for the World Cup so D'arcy was played in the Heineken Cup at the behest of the IRFU. Same reason Fitzy kept getting game time last season and Kearney is played at fullback ahead of Nacewa. Nation takes precedence. And Deccie wanted the experienced partnership playing.

So when people say McFadden "can't" get ahead of D'arcy at Leinster I don't think it's completely fair. Deccie's World Cup plan was overriding any plans Schmidt might have had for McFadden. Now this year O'Driscoll is injured so McFadden will be playing at 13 which isn't his best position at all. O'Malley is Leinsters next 13. McFadden could have done with a vacant spot at 12, not 13.

ps
I have no proof Deccie wanted D'arcy playing. I just suspect it because every Leinster fan knows McFadden was the better player last year. And national requirements can impose selections on the provinces as we've all seen. It's just my theory.

Thanks, Dot, good news about Low. Bit worrying for Jackson, he's not had the most luck with injuries, lucky for Warriors that Weir has really stepped up. Yes, I'd forgotten that Eddie and Gregor would be away with the 7s squad

I don't buy it Feckless.

Leinster won the Heineken Cup and came 2nd in the Magners League last year. Schmidt continued to pick Darcy and Fitzgerakd and the team kept winning.

Why would a coach change a winning team?

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:Jackson's injury seems to be dragging on.

Jackson who? Is this some understudy to the mighty Duncan Weir??

You are right Feckless. Mcfadden was by far the better player last season. I agree, Fitz and TOL were persevered with, until Yerman, could take no more. And it hurts the provinces.

I'm also of the opinion that even if Rob K is Irelands no.1 FB, I still don't see why he cant be moved to the wing or bench, in some of the big games, for some of the runs Isa gives us from FB. He lights us up. Great on the wing, but the best FB in Europe last year, for sure. One of the main reasons we won it.

Gibson wrote:You are right Feckless. Mcfadden was by far the better player last season. I agree, Fitz and TOL were persevered with, until Yerman, could take no more. And it hurts the provinces.

I'm also of the opinion that even if Rob K is Irelands no.1 FB, I still don't see why he cant be moved to the wing or bench, in some of the big games, for some of the runs Isa gives us from FB. He lights us up. Great on the wing, but the best FB in Europe last year, for sure. One of the main reasons we won it.

I think Isa on the wing is the right move for now,when Horgan is back there is a decision to be made but I think in Kearney at FB and Nacewa at wing we have a very good FB and winger.If you swap them around we have a fantastic FB but a pretty poor winger,I think Kearney is a FB and would rather he be dropped than put on the wing.

red_stag wrote:I don't buy it Feckless.

Leinster won the Heineken Cup and came 2nd in the Magners League last year. Schmidt continued to pick Darcy and Fitzgerakd and the team kept winning.

Why would a coach change a winning team?

Me neither. Kidney took McFadden to NZ why would he insist that Leinster didn't play him?

McFadden played the Magners league final and wasn't great. He played on the wing in the 6N and wasn't great. He played in the summer tests and he wasn't great and he played in the RWC against Russia and he wasn't great.

How long are people going to keep making excuses for this guy?

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:I don't buy it Feckless.

Leinster won the Heineken Cup and came 2nd in the Magners League last year. Schmidt continued to pick Darcy and Fitzgerakd and the team kept winning.

Why would a coach change a winning team?

Me neither. Kidney took McFadden to NZ why would he insist that Leinster didn't play him?

McFadden played the Magners league final and wasn't great. He played on the wing in the 6N and wasn't great. He played in the summer tests and he wasn't great and he played in the RWC against Russia and he wasn't great.

How long are people going to keep making excuses for this guy?

I take it you dont rate him Rodders?

Hmm it might seem a tad harsh DOD but all I hear is how good this guy is and how he should be ahead of D'arcy or Fitzgerald etc. but everytime he actually plays he's either poor or average. He's done some good things but very little to suggest hes a top class 12 or 13.

Fitzgerald is much better player IMO and D'arcy still is despite being a shadow of his old self.

Yeah I agree about McFadden,he does the occasional flash thing like the try against Racing Metro in the Heino last year but the only games where I've been really impressed with his overall contribution have been on the wing.

I understand that view lads. I just believe McFadden has been a bit unlucky not to have broken through yet and he will come through and be an excellent 12 for Leinster. Just like I believe Fitzgerald will find his mojo and be one of our best players. Could be me blue tinted glasses. But I really believe both those players will be excellent for us. Sometimes it just takes time.

Feckless. Look I don't want this guy to fail. If I give him a bit of stick its because I'm disappointed and frustrated with him. I want him to be as awesome as I keep hearing he is!

McFadden is an out-and-out centre. Everyone knows that. Yet Kidney still played him on the wing for Ireland and took him to the RWC. He must see it.

I can see it. But, he needs to overhaul Darcy at Leinster 1st and then - Ireland. Needs to nail his spot at Leinster and then his confidence will grow.

Its Darcy who is in his way. No one else. Every time he gets the chance in the HC he has to show it.

Happy that Cronin and Toner are starting. They fully deserve their spots. With Sexton, Reddan and O Malley starting. Alongside a renewed Fitz & Kearney, and the imperious Nacewa... This team is designed to attack. Lets hope we click and its a 5 pointer.

Glasgow have the wherewithal to take us all the way. But, we know that.

Leinster to come awake and nail this one.

The point is, D'Arcy should have been on his way a long time ago and McFadden should have replaced him by now at 12, if that is where he is best. The thing is, he hasn't and the chances he has got that I have seen, he hasn't done all that much special. I am more interested in O'Malley and would prefer him to replace D'Arcy at 12 while Fitz moves into 13.

Stunning play by Leinster so far.

3 well created tries in 30 minutes - 2 with one man in the bin.

I've only just tuned in...I forgot the kick off was half twelve!

24 - 6 already, so I've missed a good few tries

Ha! The ref just got dumped...