South Africa v Australia 2nd Test debate

First topic message reminder :

This huge game for both teams gets under way tomorrow morning at 08.30. After that astonishing 1st Test, will the Aussie's frame of mind be in the right place for them to bounce back, are they tough enough?. Can South Africa omit Vernon Philander after stunning figures of 8-78?. Johannesburg, is not as bowler friendly as Newlands so will either team leave out their spinner?. Will this be the great Ricky Pontings last Test match. If he does not get a biggish score, i think it may well be. Lot's of big questions to be answered by both tems in this match, which way do you think the result will go?.
Rearly looking forward to this match, as posted many times before, it is a sin that there are only two Tests.

cricketfan90 wrote:Hughes is not a test match batsman. He is awful against the short ball, he is a slogger, and dosent look prepared to dig in for the side. Katich should still be there but thats clearly not gonna happen whilst clarke is skipper. Waston is a good batsman, but goes too hard at the ball. Marsh inexperienced but will succed at test level. Punter is finished after this series IMO. Clarke class test batsman. Hussey class, but wont be around for much longer. Haddin finished has been in awful form for a while now...

this would be my aussie batting line up

1.Watson
2.Marsh
3.Ponting/Warner
4.Clarke
5.Ferguson
6.Hussey/when he retires: Mitchell Marsh
7.Paine

Marsh better opener than Hughes. Warner can slot in at 3. Mitch marsh looks to be a tremednous prospect with bat and ball, and would take the pressure off Watson. Paine is much better than Haddin.

Twill be a while before judgement can be made on Hughes. From what I saw South Africva bowled cluelessly at him today. Doubt if he'd have found it so easy against, say, England. The ball did not seem to be moving much either, which would have helped him.
Only a good run of scores will silence the doubters. Personally, I don't think he's Test class. Yes, I know Trescothick had technical difficulties and still made a hatful of Test runs. I just don't think it will happen for Hughes. But then I never thought David Boon would make it !

Just about to predict Watson falling short of his 100 and then a collapse (no, really I was) when Watson's out for 88. So what about the collapse then.

Ponting gone for a duck, collapse in full flow!

A first wicket for the disappointing Dale Steyn.

What a difference the lunch break has made. They (the bowlers) must have got one giant boot up the backside .

Can happen when you've got to play yourself in all over again.

Ouchhhhhhhhhhhh Clarke get's an inside edge smack into his box. Medical time out.
I once scored a goal in a five-a-side, when the goalie kicked the ball very hard straight into my wossits and it bounced into the goal. I was on the floor for 5 minutes, with everybody laughing.

I did not think it was funny .

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:Hughes gets far too much stick on these boards (usually from so-called purists, who probably similarly rubbished guys like Trescothick and Simon Jones when they first appeared on the scene). He is a bl00dy talented batsman, and a tough character. He had quite a few technical faults when he first appeared on the scene, but he is gradually ironing these out. There has been evidence of improvement since he's been back in the team, which presumably is why he's still there.

Really? Heres his cumulative averages from cricinfo ( not including the 9, 9 from this test)


Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s Opposition Start Date
1 2 0 75 75 37.50 125 60.00 0 1 1 11 1 v South Africa 26 Feb 2009 Test # 1910
2 4 0 350 160 87.50 599 58.43 2 1 1 45 6 v South Africa 6 Mar 2009 Test # 1913
3 6 0 415 160 69.16 709 58.53 2 1 1 53 6 v South Africa 19 Mar 2009 Test # 1916
4 7 0 451 160 64.42 763 59.10 2 1 1 58 6 v England 8 Jul 2009 Test # 1922
5 9 0 472 160 52.44 806 58.56 2 1 1 61 6 v England 16 Jul 2009 Test # 1925
6 11 0 509 160 46.27 899 56.61 2 1 2 66 6 v Pakistan 3 Jan 2010 Test # 1945
7 13 1 615 160 51.25 998 61.62 2 2 2 82 7 v New Zealand 19 Mar 2010 Test # 1955
8 15 1 629 160 44.92 1035 60.77 2 2 2 83 7 v England 16 Dec 2010 Test # 1984
9 17 1 668 160 41.75 1097 60.89 2 2 2 87 7 v England 26 Dec 2010 Test # 1986
10 19 1 712 160 39.55 1248 57.05 2 2 2 93 7 v England 3 Jan 2011 Test # 1989
11 21 1 752 160 37.60 1330 56.54 2 2 2 98 8 v Sri Lanka 31 Aug 2011 Test # 2005
12 22 1 788 160 37.52 1446 54.49 2 2 2 103 8 v Sri Lanka 8 Sep 2011 Test # 2007
13 24 1 914 160 39.73 1668 54.79 3 2 3 119 9 v Sri Lanka 16 Sep 2011 Test # 2008
14 26 1 932 160 37.28 1709 54.53 3 2 3 121 9 v South Africa 9 Nov 2011 Test # 2016
15 27 1 1020 160 39.23 1820 56.04 3 3 3 135 9 v South Africa 17 Nov 2011 Test # 2018


As you can see the majority of his runs were scored in his early games and his average has dropped not risen over time ( although that is skewed by the centuries in second game). Since New Zeland a year and a hlaf ago hes had one good haul of runs ( a century and a faliure against Sri Lankain the third test)
The general pattern though is after bursting onto the scene he simply hasnt delivered consitently. English fans do have a particulalry low opinion of him due to his struggles against England, and for many of us its the only games we really watch so inevitably remeber these performances more. The huge hype surrounding him (posters like philhughesisgod form old 606 for example) made the backlash greater too. Given all the abuse English cricketers suffered form Aussies over the years its hardly suprising if Hughes get some back.

The fact is hes been in test cricket for several years now with enough caps under his belt to be judged on results as well as potential. He hasnt delivered, and continues not to although he hasnt done as badly as some people think but theres clealry still room to improve...mostly in the core skill of an opener, not getting out early caught behind. If he can cut that out he could be a dangerous oppoenent, till then hes a bit of a liability especially up against the likes of SA and England with their quality seamers.

Fists of Fury wrote:Ponting gone for a duck, collapse in full flow!

One possible innings left to save his test career?

I hope that they stick with Tahir. He might leak runs, but thats because he isnt a holding bowler. Anyone that has seen him play a lot of times, will know, that he is a strike bowler a wicket taker, he will leak runs but get wickets. If they want a hodling bowler, then they can go back to Paul harris who will defend but get no wickets.

I'm unconvinced by Tahir TBH cf. I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure SA will give him the chance to be a strike bowler. Traditionally they use their spinners in more of a holding role, which I agree is one Tahir is ill-suited too. Anyway, if Tahir wants to become an important member of the side he needs to be able to do both to a degree. For me, he has a good googly yes, but doesn't really turn his leg-break, dosen't have much guile in the flight either, so not that sure how he's going to get good batsmen out regularly in the longer version.

Also this round the wicket approach to left-handers is not something I agree with.

bye bye ricky.

Tahir has to develop a lot if he has to be a successful test spinner, from whatever I've seen of him across the 2 tests, which is not much though. But he's 32, and there is not much time left for him to evolve. So unless he makes a quick impact, can't be expected to have a decent test career for any length of time.

ith Claarke gone, Australia got another struggle in their hands.
If Khawaja goes on to get a big score, Marsh regains fitness before the NZ series, will that have any impact on the making of the batting lineup?
After today's duck, what does the immediate future holds for Ricky Ponting?

Steyn gets Khawaja. Australia are slipping away rather quickly after that fine opening act.
Brad Haddin, with his career on the line, has joined Mr. Cricket.

Hussey gone, Steyn gets his third, and suddenly it looks like SA may fashion an improbable lead here. Aus's batting frailties coming back to haunt them.

Bit sad about Ricky. Always better if you can decide when you want to go rather than have others decide for you. His figures are getting a bit tarnished now and that's a shame for a great batsman.

OMG Hussey out now as I was lamenting Ponting

Steyn now gets through Hussey's defenses!. This all going wrong for Australia here!.
Can Mitch Johnson get some runs to sae his side and may be get a lifeline for himself as well?

Steyn is bowling nowhere close to his full pace, but he's getting the ball to move just a little, and has looked much better , than he did with the new ball.

TAHIR FIRST BALL OF HIS NEW SPELL GETS HADDIN OUT LBW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

calm down mate, you could have a heart attack

well done Tahir, not the best effort from Haddin there, playing for wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much turn (it did turn a bit), when Tahir hasn't really threatened t turn the ball much at all.

You will not see a much better googly than that - Tahir to get Siddle

immie gets 3 for!

decent knock from Johnson to get Aus to a 30 run lead, but they should really have got a lead of 100+ after their great start. Tahir came back well, but for me relies too much on his googly. Give teams six months and they'll start picking him, and then I think he'll struggle.

could be an uncomfortable little period for SA this

great, four balls an they're off! god some times the light issue annoys me! also those four balls took about ten minutes to deliver because every ball the umpires would have a chat, so then the batsman would need to take guard again. GET ON WITH IT!

Normally get p'd off with the light thing but you have to remember this is a white sightscreen, red ball game and it's NOT like a floodlit match. Don't suppose S Africa are too bothered about going off.
So what are we going to see next? Funny thing was the longer the Aussie innings went on, the surer I was that they would collapse. Wonder how many they would have got if S Africa had bowled better at the beginning.

well Aus have a 30 run lead, which isn't much but better than nothing, and given how both batting sides have been prone to collapses so far in the series, quite frankly anything can happen.

From a real tough situation, The South Africans have made a pretty strong comeback.
Now they should bat with sense. If they get a 300+ lead, it could be dificult for Australia.
But its just the 2nd day that just got over , and there is a lot of time remaining in the match.
Hopes the South Africans would learn from the first innings mistakes and redeem themselves.

Great days play. Fine knocks by Watson and Hughes(although Hughes should've been out on 38, you make you own luck in this great game). The great Dale Steyn showed why he's the best bowler of his era. Started off poorly, but when we needed something to happen, he all ways delivers. Tahir isn't anything special, and I'm pretty unhappy we didn't groom a young South African spinner. If Tahir was really a World beater, he would've surpassed Kaneria, he never managed to do this.

i thought shane watson's innings was much better than Hughes

Watson looked right at home even with a hamstring problem. He just needs to convert these scores into hundreds more reguarly.

cricketfan90 wrote:i thought shane watson's innings was much better than Hughes

Watson looked right at home even with a hamstring problem. He just needs to convert these scores into hundreds more reguarly.

I don't understand why Hughes gets all this unfair criticism. So what if Watson was fluent, you don't get extra runs for being more technically sound. Runs are runs, Hughes got some today, fair play to the youngster.

IMO, the line up for the series against NZ should be

1.Watson
2.Hughes( however if he hadnt scored that 88 he prob would have been dropped)
3.Marsh (if fit)
4.Michael Clarke
5.Usman Khawaja
6.Mike Hussey
7.Tim Paine (If fit)
8.Nathan Hauritz (Lyon)
9.Peter Siddle
10.Ryan Harris (if fit)
11.Pat Cummins

cricketfan90 wrote:IMO, the line up for the series against NZ should be

1.Watson
2.Hughes( however if he hadnt scored that 88 he prob would have been dropped)
3.Marsh (if fit)
4.Michael Clarke
5.Usman Khawaja
6.Mike Hussey
7.Tim Paine (If fit)
8.Nathan Hauritz (Lyon)
9.Peter Siddle
10.Ryan Harris (if fit)
11.Pat Cummins

Khawaja is clearly a quota pick. His technique is poor and he's clearly not that good.

Hughes's technique is worse, yet u cant say a bad thing about him.

cricketfan90 wrote:Hughes's technique is worse, yet u cant say a bad thing about him.

Hughes averages nearly 40 in Test cricket, has 3 hundreds. Khawaja bats in the middle order, yet still can't register a score...

im not gonna argue about this, your entitled to your opinon, and im entitled to mine..

cricketfan90 wrote:im not gonna argue about this, your entitled to your opinon, and im entitled to mine..

Having a good technique proves what? Hughes averages more in SA than Tendulkar and Dravid, both whom are considered technically sound. If you back your natural ability, you'll seldom go wrong.

Hughes is far too inconsistent for my liking. Nowhere close to Simon Katich at the moment.
Anyways, a career saving knock from him I think, at least for the NZ series.

Its just 2 tests since he came back, but Jacques Rudolph has wasted another start. He was looking good, and it was a terrible shot to get out.

Solid first hour for South Africa. Smith and Amla batting with sense, not providing anymore opening after Rudolph's brain freeze gave Australia an early advantage.

Very impressed with Cummins today. Caused Kallis a lot of trouble with the short ball as well.

Amla and De Villiers building a nice partnership here, but had Haddin taken the throw from Khawaja in the modern way - in front of the stumps and bring it back - De Villiers could well have been out. Poor from Haddin

SA looking steady now, Amla and DV showing some grit, mixed with some classic shots. Amla has another 50. SA 160-3.

But with all the collapse's that have occurred so far in this series, anything could happen.

Huge important for punter in the 2nd innings

He looked more threatning with the ball than the bat.

They should be more sensible and sensitive to the weather situation at the time of scheduling, and be flexible enough. There was lots of sunshine in the morning, and play could have easily started an hour early. But we have is another seriously shortened day.
South Africa ended up in a good position with Amla and De Villiers going strong. SA should keep a close check on themselves, and save themselves from any unwanted rush of blood, and bat normal for the first couple of sessions. If they manage that much, they should end up with a lead above 350, and with their bowling unit and Australia's present batting form, that should be a winning lead.
Otherwise, there remains a lot of work to be done by the SA batting unit in this test match.

Mitchell Johnson added another terrible day of test cricket to th long list that he already has. The others did loook half decent at least, but Johnson not only returned with no wicket, but leaked runs big time as well.
Also couldn't understand Clarke's approach with Lyon. He got Smith out with a decent ball of which the batsman tried something fancy, and then got taken off. Then rather than returning to him, Clarke bowled himself, Hussey and their upcoming bowling all-rounder!! Ricky Ponting!. Of course the partimers came up with a surprise or 2 in Lanka, but the captain needs to show some more confidence in the main spinner. Lyon does look a decent bowler, and he deserves better.

Pretty impressed with young Cummins. He troubled all the batters, particularly Jacques Kallis. He bowled with impressive pace, and used the bouncer to good effect.