South Africa v Australia 2nd Test debate

First topic message reminder :

This huge game for both teams gets under way tomorrow morning at 08.30. After that astonishing 1st Test, will the Aussie's frame of mind be in the right place for them to bounce back, are they tough enough?. Can South Africa omit Vernon Philander after stunning figures of 8-78?. Johannesburg, is not as bowler friendly as Newlands so will either team leave out their spinner?. Will this be the great Ricky Pontings last Test match. If he does not get a biggish score, i think it may well be. Lot's of big questions to be answered by both tems in this match, which way do you think the result will go?.
Rearly looking forward to this match, as posted many times before, it is a sin that there are only two Tests.

south africa will be fuming at the way they bowled after tea. The first few overs after tea set the tone for the rest of that session. Phillander and steyn gave away 12 runs each in the first 2 overs, and then they couldnt really stop the flow of runs.

Missed all the action - but a great contest.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Missed all the action - but a great contest.

Ditto.

Watched every ball on edge - I was too afraid to move for that last session.

It's been a highly entertaining series to say the least - both sides are very evenly matched. I was very happy to see Haddin and MJ play a crucial role in that win... and thrilled to see young Cummins hit the winning runs.

It's just been announced Mickey Arthur will coach Australia.

He is our first foreign cricket coach. He's very enthusiastic about the cricket setup here and will approach each test 'one at a time' he says. I wish him every success and I think he is very well suited to our Australian ways of doing things and he will work well with the new Administration.

Well, well, well. An overseas coach for Aus. It has worked for Eng, so why not.

Does anyone know why he quit SA last year, after having such a good record.

He will have a big job on his hands, and big decisions to make. Especially now he will be on the selection panel.

Not sure of the reasons why he quit SA... maybe it was for 'political' reasons or maybe he simply needed a fresh start somewhere else.

He has already helped WA get off to good start in the Shield this year (currently second behind Qld) after a respectable first season there last year. I think the players like him and he also likes to have a variety of talent at his disposal.

Yes, it's a big job and there are some crucial decisions to be made before the 'Gabba Test. However, I have a good feeling about this appointment along with the new selection panel. It is turning out to be a long transition for our team but I believe there are some very good signs there with some young guns vying for spots against seasoned incumbents/legends who are either injured (or about to come back from injury) or struggling for some consistency.

Has Ponting done enough to have another crack at NZ?

What if Watson needs to recover more... does our batting order all slide up one spot (open with Hughes & Khawaja) and we include someone like Mitchell Marsh, Ferguson, Ben Cutting or an all rounder like Henriques at 6?

What about giving Warner a go? If so... do we drop Punter or the Huss? Also, there's Shaun Marsh returning to the fold. Very hard decisions there...

Despite Haddin's timely knock yesterday - is it worth trying Wade or waiting for Paine to return after fully recovering from his injury?

I also hear Hilfenhaus is firing for Tasmania at present and has Mitch done enough to earn a stay of execution (before yesterday)?

Siddle looks likely to be the unlucky one... and then there's James Pattinson and even Rhino (when he's fit) and other youngsters like Starc & Copeland waiting in the wings?

Lots of things to consider.... but we need to act correctly & decisively and make sure we continue to build our confidence even further before the NZers and Indians arrive here.

Linebreaker wrote:Not sure of the reasons why he quit SA... maybe it was for 'political' reasons or maybe he simply needed a fresh start somewhere else.

He has already helped WA get off to good start in the Shield this year (currently second behind Qld) after a respectable first season there last year. I think the players like him and he also likes to have a variety of talent at his disposal.

Yes, it's a big job and there are some crucial decisions to be made before the 'Gabba Test. However, I have a good feeling about this appointment along with the new selection panel. It is turning out to be a long transition for our team but I believe there are some very good signs there with some young guns vying for spots against seasoned incumbents/legends who are either injured (or about to come back from injury) or struggling for some consistency.

Has Ponting done enough to have another crack at NZ?

What if Watson needs to recover more... does our batting order all slide up one spot (open with Hughes & Khawaja) and we include someone like Mitchell Marsh, Ferguson, Ben Cutting or an all rounder like Henriques at 6?

What about giving Warner a go? If so... do we drop Punter or the Huss? Also, there's Shaun Marsh returning to the fold. Very hard decisions there...

Despite Haddin's timely knock yesterday - is it worth trying Wade or waiting for Paine to return after fully recovering from his injury?

I also hear Hilfenhaus is firing for Tasmania at present and has Mitch done enough to earn a stay of execution (before yesterday)?

Siddle looks likely to be the unlucky one... and then there's James Pattinson and even Rhino (when he's fit) and other youngsters like Starc & Copeland waiting in the wings?

Lots of things to consider.... but we need to act correctly & decisively and make sure we continue to build our confidence even further before the NZers and Indians arrive here.

Blimey Linebreaker, that is a lot of decisions From what i have read, it certainly seems he his a man with presence and ability. I hope he succeeds. Cricket needs Australia to be a top team again.

Make's beating them all the sweeter

I for one think that Ponting will definitely get to face the Indian's and if successful may well carry on beyond. Even though is figures have not been that impressive for a while now, you can tell he still wants it.

Well played Hadden and Johnson, Linebreaker told you not to be negative.

I think the difference was Steyn yesterday, he just never came to the party.

Not negative Biltong... just cautious.

When Haddin got out with 23 runs or so still required with 3 wickets left I still thought they could be quickly blown away... or they might even go off for bad light.??

It surprised me too about Steyn. Did he do something to his shoulder? He just didn't seem his usual self. Philander on the other hand... He would be my player of the Series... Cummins my MoM for that match.

Lyon was extremely underbowled by australia in this series. IMO.

Terrific Test and wonderful finish. Just wondered what would have happened if it had got any darker. Surely they would not have come off for the floodlit rule with, say, two or three runs wanted or one wicket to fall ? Glad it didn't come down to that.
South Africa, it seems, don't do tense finishes too well. Attacking move bringing Tahir on and he could have won the match in two deliveries. But with only a handful needed you really could not risk the long hop which got belted for the winning runs.

sir fred thats a bit harsh aobut Tahir

IMO he should have been on earlier then when they had a handful of runs to win. He's a wicket taker and has shown that, look at his f/c record. its his debut test series, and people need to give him a break.

Didn't he have 2 warnings for running on the wicket though? Maybe Smith was more worried about that?

sirfredperry wrote:Terrific Test and wonderful finish. Just wondered what would have happened if it had got any darker. Surely they would not have come off for the floodlit rule with, say, two or three runs wanted or one wicket to fall ? Glad it didn't come down to that.
South Africa, it seems, don't do tense finishes too well. Attacking move bringing Tahir on and he could have won the match in two deliveries. But with only a handful needed you really could not risk the long hop which got belted for the winning runs.

Can't agree with you on that. Haddin was riding his luck early in his innings and the same with Mitchell, australia had nothing to lose and it came off for them.

Steyn went missing in the innings and that is the nett result.

I hope they stick with Tahir for the sri lanka series, he is a very good spinner, and is a wicket taker.

south africa have dropped below india in the test rankings

India up to 2nd

south africa down to 3rd.

On the subject of Imran Tahir:

1) he needs to sort out his running on the wicket problem, pronto. It's something umpires are going to be on the look-out for, and he does run straight down the pitch. Worse, if he's not careful he could end up obscuring the umpire's view from an LBW appeal or something.

2) I quite liked what I saw from him in this test. There's no doubt that he's a wicket-taking threat, something SA haven't had in a spinner for some time now (since re-admission probably). As such, SA are going to have to work out how to use him (i.e. completely differently to the way they use Paul Harris).

3) He's going to have to keep working on his game. Right now his biggest threat is the googly, but with the level of analysis around nowadays, it won't be that long I don't think before teams start picking him. Tahir will have to try and remain a step ahead of those.

4) Bringing him on with 5 needed was a gamble by Smith, the last throw of the dice, and IMO a decent decision. He'd wiped out the tail in the first innings and Smith was hoping he could do the same again. He did nearly dismiss Cummins. Fact is, Warne aside, leg-spinners bowl bad balls, so not too much blame can be attached to Tahir for that long-hop.

i feel he should have been brought on earlier then with a handful of runs left. IMO that was a ridiclous move from smith

however it was lost from the start of the final session. Steyn and philander gave away too many runs at the start of the session and the momentum was with australia..

but a few runs earlier it was the seamers bowling with the new ball, so it wasn't logical. I agree with you SA lost it just after tea (or Aus won it with a great counter-attack). For me Smith's thinking went: "new ball, last chance to blast out the tail" => got a couple of wickets but then Aus got even closer so Smith goes "if we keep the seamers on we've lost, let's give Tahir a go and hope he produces a couple of wickets". There wasn't time to turn to Tahir between taking the new ball and Aus getting to within 5, so for me Smith got that bit right.

i would have thrown Tahir the ball with 25 runs left to win

that was when they took the new ball though, Tahir was bowling at that point wasn't he?

im suprised at how much, steyn and philander struggled with the 2nd new ball in the 2nd innings to be honest.

I would have bowled Tahir with the new ball as soon as Philander got Haddin out TBH, but that is irrelevant (particularly as Steyn was struggling).

It was IMO a very good piece of positive captaincy by Smith to bring him on with 5 runs needed and shows he learns quickly, but the key for me is he got his field wrong, it should have been more in-out (knowing Tahir could underpitch, he should have had deep point and deep-midwicket to save the boundary).

Aus counter-attacked superbly, SA didn't bowl that badly but Johnson and Haddin played some very good drives on the up to wrestle the momentum back.

On Aus's future selection plans:
Ponting has done enough to give himself the test series against New-Zealand IMO. If you don't drop him before the test you don't drop him afterwards. Interestingly his reflexes look very sharp in the slips still, suggesting he may have a while left over.
I still rate Hughes, but would be happy for him to have the summer off to carry on his technical improvements (having said that, he is getting far more in line with the ball than during the last ashes). If all fit I would open with Marsh and Watson, Khawaja 3 (much better than at 6) and then the same.

Bowling wise Aus have to manage Cummins, who is young and still not quite developed. In particular I don't see how he can play a full home summer yet. Johnson gets a lot of slack, he's invaluable to this Aus side and you need some experience. Interesting that Cummins was implying Mitch played an important role to him. Harris if fit plays, but will he ever be fit? wouldn't return to Hilfenhaus, IMO much like Hoggard he's lost his zip which if you don't have you won't succeed at international level, no matter how well you're doing at first class level. I would go Cummins, Johnson, Harris (if fit) and replace Cummins with Siddle for 2nd test.

On Imran Tahir:
he looks good to me. Needs to sort out his running on the wicket, probably by straightening his angle which will also help his leggie turn more. Needs to use the googly less, and perhaps the top-spinner more. Certainly SA's best spinner since re-admission.

It looks like Johnson will miss the Brisbane Test... scans on his toe/foot seem worse than first thought.

Watson is out too.

Harris has declared himself fit to play with injections in the hip... I think it would be a risk personally.

Clarke is holding a media conference in a few hours... will keep you posted.

Well if Watson is out the logical choice is push Marsh up to opening the batting (assuming Marsh is fit?) and stick to the rest of the batting order. Certainly Khawaja looks a far better bet at 3 than at 6 to me. Bowling-wise, with Johnson out if Harris is fir he has to play, but with injections at the start of the summer? Seems very risky to me: as Mike says you probably shouldn't expect Cummins to play the whole summer, so you'll need Harris fully fit at some point.

Remaining options are Copeland, Pattinson and maybe Hilfenhaus. Now I was thoroughly unimpressed by Hilfenhaus in the last Ashes, he basically never looked like taking a wicket. Unless he's got that extra little zip back, which is unlikely I think his test career is over. We'll know more after the media conference I expect.

Don't overcomplicate things. Marsh upto open if fit (if not I guess it's Katich?), Harris for Johnson if fit, if not Copeland.

Ambiguous words from Watson - he says he should be able to bat but not bowl next week... but it seems likely he might play now. Clarke is backing him even if he only bats. Also Ponting and Haddin have full support of MC but will all of the selection panel say the same thing? Probably...

Well Watson has been a consistent performer at the top of the order, so I'd pick him even if he can't bowl. It's not as if he was going to be replaced by an all-rounder anyway.

Ponting should probably be given the 2 tests against New-Zealand at least. Haddin I'm less sure about, but Paine is out injured still right? Given I think Paine will replace Haddin very soon, it seems that Haddin keeps his place for now.

Clarke as captain should get the final say on the team anyway.

I heard Paine will be available sometime in the New Year.

Ponting & Haddin will get more than just the 2 Tests. Well, that's the plan anyway... they've persevered this far with them both and now we have confirmation that they will be there for the India Series at the very least.

Linebreaker wrote:I heard Paine will be available sometime in the New Year.

Ponting & Haddin will get more than just the 2 Tests. Well, that's the plan anyway... they've persevered this far with them both and now we have confirmation that they will be there for the India Series at the very least.

Great to hear. For such a big series for both teams (Aus v India), it would have been wrong (imo) to change the batting line up too much. Better to see how the next six test's turn out before deciding if they need to.