Should Mayweather Be Given More Credit For His Win Over Marquez?

A while back Mayweather took on Marquez at a catchweight similar of 144 Pounds and beat him, extremely decisively with one of the most lopsided compubox stats you could have ever seen for a top World Championship bout. Pacqioau also an elite level boxer fought him at this same weight however struggled massively with him.

Now you can say that Marquez had his number or that styles make fights however Marquez showed that he clearly can pose problems to the very best at the weight and in truth could probably beat most around 147. Perhaps Marquez carried the weight up better this time going about it however he was 2 years younger going in against Floyd and it's not exactly Floyd's fault that he didn't carry the weight up as well as he did against Pacqiaou, however Floyd came in two pounds heavier than the weight stipulation, though I'm not sure this had much if at all any bearing on the fight.

So is Floyds win over Marquez under rated or is it still fair to think that Floyd shouldn't get much credit for this win?

AlexHuckerby wrote:A while back Mayweather took on Marquez at a catchweight similar of 144 Pounds and beat him, extremely decisively with one of the most lopsided compubox stats you could have ever seen for a top World Championship bout. Pacqioau also an elite level boxer fought him at this same weight however struggled massively with him.

Now you can say that Marquez had his number or that styles make fights however Marquez showed that he clearly can pose problems to the very best at the weight and in truth could probably beat most around 147. Perhaps Marquez carried the weight up better this time going about it however he was 2 years younger going in against Floyd and it's not exactly Floyd's fault that he didn't carry the weight up as well as he did against Pacqiaou, however Floyd came in two pounds heavier than the weight stipulation, though I'm not sure this had much if at all any bearing on the fight.

So is Floyds win over Marquez under rated or is it still fair to think that Floyd shouldn't get much credit for this win?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that while Pacquiao has been at welter for a couple of years or so, he's still very much a small welter when compared to someone like Clottey, Ortiz, Berto and the like. I don't think he's ever put on a great deal of weight after weigh-in at 147. Marquez likewise is small at the weight.

Marquez came up the weight poorly, Mayweather didn't stick to the weight limit for the fight, Marquez had only ever fought as high as lightweight prior to the Mayweather fight. Katsidis managed to knock Marquez down at 135. I imagine that someone like Ortiz who would come into the ring weighing around 160lbs could not only put Marquez down but would keep him there.

In short, no. Mayweather put the catchweight in then completely ignored it and JMM being so unnatural at the weight was just blown up and so sluggish. Plus, as many have mentioned, PBF is just a better version of JMM, whereas Pac is an anti-thesis, therefore suiting JMM much better.

JMM looked in amazing shape for the Pac fight, like he'd put on the extra weight really well. Clearly much better prepared.

(not that any of the above excuses the result!)

BALTIMORA wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:A while back Mayweather took on Marquez at a catchweight similar of 144 Pounds and beat him, extremely decisively with one of the most lopsided compubox stats you could have ever seen for a top World Championship bout. Pacqioau also an elite level boxer fought him at this same weight however struggled massively with him.

Now you can say that Marquez had his number or that styles make fights however Marquez showed that he clearly can pose problems to the very best at the weight and in truth could probably beat most around 147. Perhaps Marquez carried the weight up better this time going about it however he was 2 years younger going in against Floyd and it's not exactly Floyd's fault that he didn't carry the weight up as well as he did against Pacqiaou, however Floyd came in two pounds heavier than the weight stipulation, though I'm not sure this had much if at all any bearing on the fight.

So is Floyds win over Marquez under rated or is it still fair to think that Floyd shouldn't get much credit for this win?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that while Pacquiao has been at welter for a couple of years or so, he's still very much a small welter when compared to someone like Clottey, Ortiz, Berto and the like. I don't think he's ever put on a great deal of weight after weigh-in at 147. Marquez likewise is small at the weight.

Marquez came up the weight poorly, Mayweather didn't stick to the weight limit for the fight, Marquez had only ever fought as high as lightweight prior to the Mayweather fight. Katsidis managed to knock Marquez down at 135. I imagine that someone like Ortiz who would come into the ring weighing around 160lbs could not only put Marquez down but would keep him there.

Marquez ring weight in Pac fight was 150.

Not really. Styles make fights and Marquez will always ask questions of Pacman, as will any good counter puncher.

but huw that is irrellevant surely... just because he has a good style for him shouldnt matter.

I thnk he probably should be given a bit more credit on reflection although I think its clear that sizewise Marquez handled the weight better for the Pacquaio fight and I didnt like the way Mayweather just cynically ignored the catchweight (even though I dont think it mattered much ultimately).

Obviously the stylistic match up favoured Mayweather more in terms of impressing but on the flip side would one say Pacquiao deserves far more credit for beating Hatton in the manner (and weight) he did than he gets?

tough to say manos perhaps floyd beat him at a higher weight but he caught him unbeaten and fresh think he was somewhat weathered when pac got to him albeit at his optimum weight think the wins are pretty even in my opinion.

I wouldnt really agree that Hatton was weathered. He was coming off one of his best ever performances against Malignaggi. That wins really seems to have fallen off the radar in Hattons career and people seem far more likely to bring up the Lazcano fight which I think is over emphasised (Hatton won 11/12 rounds for me in that fight).

The Malignaggi fight might not be an elite win but I do think it provides decent evidence to say Hatton was not as shot or shopworn as some people make out. I was actually pretty impressed by him in the fight.

I think Hatton started to decline after the Tzuyu fight, he never seemed the same and think underestimate quite how much that fight took out of him, he was in better shape and form for the Mayweather fight than the Pacquiao fight. He had a decent win over Malignaggis but he was never going to be an opponent to pounce on Hattons weakening chin.

manos de piedra wrote:I wouldnt really agree that Hatton was weathered. He was coming off one of his best ever performances against Malignaggi. That wins really seems to have fallen off the radar in Hattons career and people seem far more likely to bring up the Lazcano fight which I think is over emphasised (Hatton won 11/12 rounds for me in that fight).

The Malignaggi fight might not be an elite win but I do think it provides decent evidence to say Hatton was not as shot or shopworn as some people make out. I was actually pretty impressed by him in the fight.

Not so sure, Hatton took Tzysu's shots very well at 140 but by the time he reached Pac every shot had a massive effect unless Pac really just hits THAT much harder than Kostya?

AlexHuckerby wrote:but huw that is irrellevant surely... just because he has a good style for him shouldnt matter.

Almost every boxer can be beaten by a certain style though and Pacman never looks good against top level counter punchers. Mayweather having a completely different style to Pac means he is better equipped against counter punchers (being one of the best ever at this himself).

huw wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:but huw that is irrellevant surely... just because he has a good style for him shouldnt matter.

Almost every boxer can be beaten by a certain style though and Pacman never looks good against top level counter punchers. Mayweather having a completely different style to Pac means he is better equipped against counter punchers (being one of the best ever at this himself).

Naturally of course, however just because you have a good style against someone surely doesn't mean that your win isn't as good?

AlexHuckerby wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I wouldnt really agree that Hatton was weathered. He was coming off one of his best ever performances against Malignaggi. That wins really seems to have fallen off the radar in Hattons career and people seem far more likely to bring up the Lazcano fight which I think is over emphasised (Hatton won 11/12 rounds for me in that fight).

The Malignaggi fight might not be an elite win but I do think it provides decent evidence to say Hatton was not as shot or shopworn as some people make out. I was actually pretty impressed by him in the fight.

Not so sure, Hatton took Tzysu's shots very well at 140 but by the time he reached Pac every shot had a massive effect unless Pac really just hits THAT much harder than Kostya?

Tszyu was his best performance but its not anything new that Hatton could be hit, hurt or rocked. He was down against Eamonn Magee, hurt and cut to peices by Thaxton, out on his feet and hanging on against Collazo and so on.

Besides, the point I am making is in relation to the version of Hatton that faced Mayweather and the version of Hatton that faced Pacquiao, as opposed to the one that faced Tszyu.

I dont think the version of Hatton that Mayweather beat was significantly better than the one Pacquiao beat. When you factor in that Pacquiao blasted him out in two rounds at his natural weight, as opposed to Mayweather who didnt manage him anything as easily then theres a strong case that Pacquiao deserves more credit on pure performance and result. The argument I was making was that Hattons style suited Pacquiao more than Mayweather, as Marquez suited Mayweather more than Pacquiao.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

huw wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:but huw that is irrellevant surely... just because he has a good style for him shouldnt matter.

Almost every boxer can be beaten by a certain style though and Pacman never looks good against top level counter punchers. Mayweather having a completely different style to Pac means he is better equipped against counter punchers (being one of the best ever at this himself).

Naturally of course, however just because you have a good style against someone surely doesn't mean that your win isn't as good?

Of course it does.

Ali's win against Frazier wasn't as good as Foremans.

Mayweathers win against Hatton wasn't as good as Pac's.

Maybe we should judge it more on who beats a great fighter is a great fighter but the preformance in the victory will always be scrutinised and compared against someone who did the job better or worse.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I wouldnt really agree that Hatton was weathered. He was coming off one of his best ever performances against Malignaggi. That wins really seems to have fallen off the radar in Hattons career and people seem far more likely to bring up the Lazcano fight which I think is over emphasised (Hatton won 11/12 rounds for me in that fight).

The Malignaggi fight might not be an elite win but I do think it provides decent evidence to say Hatton was not as shot or shopworn as some people make out. I was actually pretty impressed by him in the fight.

Not so sure, Hatton took Tzysu's shots very well at 140 but by the time he reached Pac every shot had a massive effect unless Pac really just hits THAT much harder than Kostya?

If Kosta had the handspeed and timing to land like that on Hatton - he'd be gone.

Roach spotted that Hatton pulled back his right hand - as he threw the left before he threw his right. Manny was trained in the gym, over and over to throw the left hook as soon as he saw Hatton man sausage his right - the hand drops, all Manny had to remember was to duck and throw at the same time.

Hell - had Malignaggi caught Hatton with that shot - Hatton would have gone down. That punch would have KOd anyone.

Yes but it wasn't just that particular punch that had him reeling, you can see the effects after every shot, whilst Tyszu landed the right hand over and over again but Hatton just walked through it, and I'm putting that down to his punch resistance lowering.

The most dangerous punch is the punch you don't see, while Pacquiao may not be the huge puncher we thought he was, his handspeed was such that Hatton couldn't see the punches coming.

I said when Mayweather schooled Marquez that he deserved more credit for it. People on here stated that the weight was a factormaybe but Mayweather still technically schooled Marquez. With his extra weight he could have gone out and blen Marquez out early but he just put on a masterclass.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:The most dangerous punch is the punch you don't see, while Pacquiao may not be the huge puncher we thought he was, his handspeed was such that Hatton couldn't see the punches coming.

You reckon he saw all Tzysu's right hands that flattened the likes of Judah?

Tszyu was at the end of his career you have to consider also. Its possible his own punch, timing and power was not what it once was.

against Pacquiao, Hatton walked face first into a wicked left hook that he didnt even see (much like the hook Mayweather caught him with) so I believe that punch would have stopped any version of Hatton. Even the one that fought Tszyu.

i know boxers aren't always the most reliable source when it comes to the reasons given for performances, as they dont want to be seens as actually the poorer fighter, but jmm stated that the way he gained weight and prepared for the mayweather fight was all wrong, and that he had done it properly for this occasion. considering the way he looked for this fight and the way he did for mayweather im incline to beleive him, added in the fact that he's 2 years older and many beleive he should have beaten the p4p no1, i think this just makes the case stronger. i'd actually be interested to see a jmm/mayweather rematch, with mayweather forced to meet the weight i think it would be a much more competitive fight.

i dont eddy floyd cakewalks it again.

Tzuyu is a far more predictable puncher than Pacquiao and doesn't have half the handspeed so think it's reasonable to assume that Hatton was able to see his punches coming far better.

fair enough still think the punch resistance had gone somewhat.

AlexHuckerby wrote:i dont eddy floyd cakewalks it again.

people said that pacquioa would walk this one, and that didnt happen

I dont think Marquez can fight effectively on the front foot so if Mayweather employs the same tactics he did last time I cant see any other outcome.

Marquez would have to try and find away to get Mayweather to engage or bring the fight which given his speed and footwork disadvantage is hard to see happening.

I think the main reason for Pacquiaos overwhelming status as favourite in the last fight was down to Marquez being seen, incorrectly in my view as a significantly smaller fighter, and viewed as being old and past it in which he proved almost everyone wrong I think. But stylewise I think everyone recognised he had a good counter style to fight Pacquiao. I dont think he has for Mayweather though.

eddyfightfan wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:i dont eddy floyd cakewalks it again.

people said that pacquioa would walk this one, and that didnt happen

Pac had massive trouble with Marquez twice, whereas Floyd shut him out with Marquez barely landing a glove on him.

i dont think he would win, but certainly think he would do better and make it interesting. jmm also derserves another big name fight. don't see anyone else worrying mayweather that much at the moment to be honest either. perhaps khan but i doubt it.

Marquez would be better off pushing for Pacquiao again, or perhaps Morales, if he wants a big name fight. I dont think the interest or entertainment would be there for Mayweather. He might do slightly better, but slightly better still sees him fall along way short.

Khan, or even Bradley would pose more of a test for Mayweather I think. He could also consider move to LMW to take on Alvarez which I think would sell well.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind him fighting Khan or Bradley at LWW, think he probably ends up being beaten to be honest, but it would be a good last payday for the guy. (Not that he needs it)

marquez vs bradley would be a good fight. the styles match perfectly, could see it been possible foty.

would love to see mayweather vs alverez, would be a really danger fight as alverez has good power. dont think floyd would take the risk though, as he probably beats khan, bradley or even ortiz again for bigger money.

Not for me alvarez is beaten and relatively easy too (By Floyd) Alvarez has decent power and an ok defence but he has never been ANYWHERE near that deep, last fight was Alfonso Gomez correct?

AlexHuckerby wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:A while back Mayweather took on Marquez at a catchweight similar of 144 Pounds and beat him, extremely decisively with one of the most lopsided compubox stats you could have ever seen for a top World Championship bout. Pacqioau also an elite level boxer fought him at this same weight however struggled massively with him.

Now you can say that Marquez had his number or that styles make fights however Marquez showed that he clearly can pose problems to the very best at the weight and in truth could probably beat most around 147. Perhaps Marquez carried the weight up better this time going about it however he was 2 years younger going in against Floyd and it's not exactly Floyd's fault that he didn't carry the weight up as well as he did against Pacqiaou, however Floyd came in two pounds heavier than the weight stipulation, though I'm not sure this had much if at all any bearing on the fight.

So is Floyds win over Marquez under rated or is it still fair to think that Floyd shouldn't get much credit for this win?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that while Pacquiao has been at welter for a couple of years or so, he's still very much a small welter when compared to someone like Clottey, Ortiz, Berto and the like. I don't think he's ever put on a great deal of weight after weigh-in at 147. Marquez likewise is small at the weight.

Marquez came up the weight poorly, Mayweather didn't stick to the weight limit for the fight, Marquez had only ever fought as high as lightweight prior to the Mayweather fight. Katsidis managed to knock Marquez down at 135. I imagine that someone like Ortiz who would come into the ring weighing around 160lbs could not only put Marquez down but would keep him there.

Marquez ring weight in Pac fight was 150.

And?

BALTIMORA wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:A while back Mayweather took on Marquez at a catchweight similar of 144 Pounds and beat him, extremely decisively with one of the most lopsided compubox stats you could have ever seen for a top World Championship bout. Pacqioau also an elite level boxer fought him at this same weight however struggled massively with him.

Now you can say that Marquez had his number or that styles make fights however Marquez showed that he clearly can pose problems to the very best at the weight and in truth could probably beat most around 147. Perhaps Marquez carried the weight up better this time going about it however he was 2 years younger going in against Floyd and it's not exactly Floyd's fault that he didn't carry the weight up as well as he did against Pacqiaou, however Floyd came in two pounds heavier than the weight stipulation, though I'm not sure this had much if at all any bearing on the fight.

So is Floyds win over Marquez under rated or is it still fair to think that Floyd shouldn't get much credit for this win?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that while Pacquiao has been at welter for a couple of years or so, he's still very much a small welter when compared to someone like Clottey, Ortiz, Berto and the like. I don't think he's ever put on a great deal of weight after weigh-in at 147. Marquez likewise is small at the weight.

Marquez came up the weight poorly, Mayweather didn't stick to the weight limit for the fight, Marquez had only ever fought as high as lightweight prior to the Mayweather fight. Katsidis managed to knock Marquez down at 135. I imagine that someone like Ortiz who would come into the ring weighing around 160lbs could not only put Marquez down but would keep him there.

Marquez ring weight in Pac fight was 150.

And?

you were meant to respond earlier to that but I completely forgot my point, however I must tell you it was a good one!

I've been unexpectedly preoccuppied with actual work (how dare they?!). Point I meant though was that 150 isn't a great deal to weigh for a welter.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Not for me alvarez is beaten and relatively easy too (By Floyd) Alvarez has decent power and an ok defence but he has never been ANYWHERE near that deep, last fight was Alfonso Gomez correct?

Doesnt really matter to me. Hes looked very talented and is a big strong aggressive LMW that would have a good size advantage on Mayweather. I think he would pose a very tough test at the higher weight.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Not for me alvarez is beaten and relatively easy too (By Floyd) Alvarez has decent power and an ok defence but he has never been ANYWHERE near that deep, last fight was Alfonso Gomez correct?

depends what weight. when alverez fights at middleweight he looks huge. alverez is fighting just about world level opponents, but he has never looked like he's needed to step out of 2nd gear. i think he's a talent and definetly has power to hurt floyd. dont see him going anywhere near this fight.

The size difference has to tell at some point, Mayweather has never been in with anyone as good and big as Alvarez before, one thing doing it against a past his best De La Hoya than it is against a young hungry champion.

Not doubting alvarez's abilities just if it was to happen in say May time, I would pick Floyd for a decision, but he could most certainly ask a few questions no doubt.

If alvarez was 25 now then he has a very good chance. At 20 though he is too green for mayweather who has fought every type of fighter in the pro's and his amateur career. It will be a big ask for someone like him to come against someone as slippery and tricky as Floyd, its hard for a 20 year old to keep a cool head when his shots are hitting thin air. I think Canelo has a good chance vs pacquiao as pacquiao likes to fight and isn't hard to hit so Saul will be able to hit him, if he can take the shots im not so sure though.

In regards to the original question, yes he should, BUT it shouldn't be seen as a huge win. Mayweather gets next to no credit for the marquez fight but he was still a very good opponent and it's odd to see such dominating punch stats from a fight between p4p #1 vs #4/5 (at the time i think it was higher)

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:If alvarez was 25 now then he has a very good chance. At 20 though he is too green for mayweather who has fought every type of fighter in the pro's and his amateur career. It will be a big ask for someone like him to come against someone as slippery and tricky as Floyd, its hard for a 20 year old to keep a cool head when his shots are hitting thin air. I think Canelo has a good chance vs pacquiao as pacquiao likes to fight and isn't hard to hit so Saul will be able to hit him, if he can take the shots im not so sure though.

In regards to the original question, yes he should, BUT it shouldn't be seen as a huge win. Mayweather gets next to no credit for the marquez fight but he was still a very good opponent and it's odd to see such dominating punch stats from a fight between p4p #1 vs #4/5 (at the time i think it was higher)

The ring actually had him at No. 3 I believe.

In fact my mistake number 2 because Floyd had been retired for so long.

Yes, I feel Mayweather should definitely get more credit for the JMM win. Due to JMM performances before and since the Floyd fight. But I think these days fans try so hard to discredit one fighter, to build up another, that there isn't many fighters that get the right amount of credit deserved for most of their victories.

Welcome to the forum Cass.

Conversely then, given that we don't give Mayweather a lot of credit for the Mayweather win, is it right that Marquez was dropped three or four places in the rankings?

BALTIMORA wrote:Conversely then, given that we don't give Mayweather a lot of credit for the Mayweather win, is it right that Marquez was dropped three or four places in the rankings?

?

The thing is with the mayweather fight, marquez's style was all wrong for it. I don't think if marquez was a weight division bigger than mayweather he would have won. Marquez even said himself it was the size AND skill that beat him.

He should get more credit for it but he won't. Not his best win ever by far considering circumstances but still a solid win which is enhanced since the Pac/JMM 3 fight.