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BOXREC and how to use it...

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BOXREC and how to use it... - Page 2 Empty BOXREC and how to use it...

Post by oxring Mon 21 Nov 2011, 12:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

What value do we accord this august organ of boxing history?

The site certainly has value - I cannot remember fluently (shame I know) the full details of Sam Langford's career - in terms of the precise dates and manners in which he defeated Jeanette. I can check boxrec and note that the key victory was by 7th round stoppage.

The site also has ratings - which are close-to-reasonable for modern day fighters.

However - by their own admission the old-timer records are notoriously inaccurate:
boxrec wrote:There admittedly are inaccuracies and anomalies, especially in the All-Time ratings, because of incomplete records in the BoxRec database. Although a boxer’s own record may be complete, his opponents’ records may not be complete. Pre-World War II boxers in particular are at somewhat of a disadvantage, vis-à-vis modern boxers. Their opponents’ records often are quite incomplete--because of the scarcity of source material or Editors' time--while the records of opponents of more current boxers often are quite complete. So, for example, while the records of Mike Tyson’s opponents may be quite complete--thereby earning Tyson a certain number of points and giving him a high ranking among the All-Time Heavyweights--the records of Young Stribling’s opponents may be extremely lacking, thereby giving Stribling fewer points and a much-lower All-Time rating. And it may appear to the casual BoxRec visitor that Stribling had fought many boxers making their professional debuts or having had only a handful of career bouts, when the truth is that not all of his opponents’ total career bouts have been entered yet into the database by an Editor. (Too many of those old-time bouts are forever lost in history because they were not reported by a newspaper or similar source, or the source was later destroyed.) But as the BoxRec Editors continue to research older resources and enter “new” historical bouts into the database, the rating of an old-time boxer like Stribling will gradually move up or down, even if his own record is complete--if bouts are added to his opponents’ records, or to his opponents' opponents' records, and so forth. So the BoxRec ratings are continually improving as new bouts are entered into the database. (Presently, some 2,000 current and old-time bouts are entered each week by the BoxRec Editors.)

Manos has an interesting - and as far as modern fighters go - an extremely valid method of using the ratings index. Not only does he look at the details of the fight - weights etc, he also checks the ages, future fights, past record, wins and losses of each fighter. As such - rather than just looking at things from a who-beat-who perspective, he builds a slightly more 3 dimensional picture of events.

The only point where this fails, in my opinion, is for old-time contests. Tancy Lee according to boxrec's career record finished with a resume of 12-7-1. This would make him a green novice when Wilde beat him and a green novice who beat Wilde. However - boxrec's own encyclopedia records Tancy as going 48-2-10 over the course of his career.

Somewhere, someone is inaccurate.

My conclusion is that boxrec for pre-war, especially pre-1930 fighters is OK if the rating is there, but more often than not it isn't. Its useful to remind you of fight weights or fight endings, but more conclusions than that can't be drawn. They are really bad at the lighter weights - as there are fewer records for those fighters.

However - post war - the ratings can give a relatively rounded and impartial picture of the events before and during a fight.
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Post by Scottrf Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:18 pm

Dawson beat Hopkins though if you do it in a linear sense.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:27 pm

Dawson didn't beat Hopkins though Scott.

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Post by Scottrf Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:29 pm

He did, and the commission haven't overturned it.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:31 pm

Hopkins is still the WBC and lineal champion, don't really think you can say he lost that fight based on still having his titles.

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Post by Union Cane Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:32 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dawson didn't beat Hopkins though Scott.

This is where Boxrec comes into its own...

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=60393&cat=boxer
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Post by Scottrf Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:33 pm

The WBC is just to do with money, he lost it due to the referee not ruling it a foul and Hopkins not being able to continue.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:35 pm

What relevance has a supposed win have when the sanctioning body don't recognize you as there champion?

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Post by Scottrf Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:36 pm

I doubt you consider Pacquiao a geniune LMW champion.

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Post by Union Cane Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:37 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:What relevance has a supposed win have when the sanctioning body don't recognize you as there champion?

It isn't a supposed win though, Chad Dawson won by TKO in round 2.

Are you saying that Hopkins won then?
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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:38 pm

In a world title fight i'm going to take the stance of the sanctioning body and they ruled it a No Contest, in what shape or form did Dawson actually win that fight?

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Post by Scottrf Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:38 pm

I don't think the 'Boxrec and how to use it' thread had the desired effect.

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Post by Scottrf Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:38 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:In a world title fight i'm going to take the stance of the sanctioning body and they ruled it a No Contest, in what shape or form did Dawson actually win that fight?
Same way Byrd beat Vitali.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:40 pm

Byrd became WBO champion after that fight did he not while Hopkins is still the WBC champion.

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Post by Scottrf Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:41 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Byrd became WBO champion after that fight did he not while Hopkins is still the WBC champion.
So which is correct?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:44 pm

Different circumstances, the WBO recognized Byrd as champion while the WBC don't recognize Dawson as champion, a prime reason why Boxrec doesn't work.

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Post by Union Cane Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:44 pm

Did Dawson not get the belt after he beat Hopkins?
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Post by Scottrf Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:46 pm

Boxrec relies on the commission, who actually control the contests to decide the winners. Not the belts who merely control the Champions.

Boxrec will recognise Hopkins as Champion, but will recognise it as a loss until the commission decide otherwise.

It works.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:46 pm

Directly after but that was fairly swiftly over turned.

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Post by oxring Wed 23 Nov 2011, 12:46 pm

To be fair ghosty - the sanctioning commission have the final say on who wins a fight and how - not the corrupt *gentlemen, excuse my language - at the WBC.

It wasn't ruled a foul - so by the rules its a TKO. For now. So boxrec is well within their rights to keep Dawson as king until the commission declare he is no longer king.
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