Saracens Lose de Kock for 3 months - Peter Stringer replaces him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15841735.stm

I guess they will be in the market for a short term replacement as Wigglesworth is also out for teh season. PRL rules allow you to exceed teh salary cap in such circumstances, while ERC rules allow at least one injury change to squads I think.

I wonder who would be available for 3 months? I am sure ERC would not allow a repeat of the Rickie Januarie situation.

We'll loan them Grindal in exchange for a centre.

There's got to be an anecdote in there somewhere.

This might leave them impotent...!

Impotent? No deKock and no Wiggly? Yep.

If it was all wiggly any way - what is the loss?

I think Saracens trialled Nemia Kenatale last season. Not sure what happened with that but he's could be a potential option. He's playing for the Barbarians vs Australia I believe. He's a Fijian scrum half.

Sam no thanks Grindal is yours!

Pardon my ignorance but are these scrumhalfs ? Surely they can promote an young up and comer from the lower leagues or do they have to get a South African in according to SANZA rules ?

Munkian just to clear up a few things for you.

Neil De Kock has been at Saracens since 2006 (before the South African investors). He has played for us over 100 times.

Our scrum halves are Wigglesworth (English international),Neil De Kock,Ben Spencer and Luke Baldwin. All are English bar de Kock.

Ben Spencer is 19. We signed him from Cambridge at the beginning of the season. He has consequently been included in the England U20s squad.

Luke Baldwin is a 21 year old Saracens academy graduate. He helped Saracens win the 2010 JP Morgan Asset Management sevens tournament.

Wigglesworth and De Kock are injured. You expect us to play just a 19 year old and 21 year old?

We need an experienced scrum half to come in. Don't care what nationality he is as long as he's good.

Sorry Beshocked but my take on it is thats the way the cookie crumbles.

You get injuries and you move on. If you have a 21 year old and 19 year old scrumhalves you play them.

You have two experienced #9s its just a shame both are injured at the same time.

Scarlett's played Gareth Davies 21 and Rhodri Williams Aged 18 when the beat saints.

Their first choice tavis knoyle is only 22.

We unearthed 21 year old Conor Murray last year when Tomas O'Leary and Peter Stringer were unavailable. Now he is first choice Irish scrumhalf at age of 22 and has a RWC behind him.

Sarries need to get over it.

beshocked, Exe have Haydn Thomas, Kevin Barrett, Junior Polu, Pat Phibbs and last season's England U18 scrummie James Lightfoot-Brown - wonder if you might take one of them on loan?

beshocked wrote:Munkian just to clear up a few things for you.

Neil De Kock has been at Saracens since 2006 (before the South African investors). He has played for us over 100 times.

Our scrum halves are Wigglesworth (English international),Neil De Kock,Ben Spencer and Luke Baldwin. All are English bar de Kock.

Ben Spencer is 19. We signed him from Cambridge at the beginning of the season. He has consequently been included in the England U20s squad.

Luke Baldwin is a 21 year old Saracens academy graduate. He helped Saracens win the 2010 JP Morgan Asset Management sevens tournament.

Wigglesworth and De Kock are injured. You expect us to play just a 19 year old and 21 year old?

We need an experienced scrum half to come in. Don't care what nationality he is as long as he's good.

Um....yes ? How else do they get experience ? Dragons played a 17 year old and 19 year old Fly half away against Wasp not so long ago.

George North is 19

Toby Faletau is 21

Tavis Knoyle - 21

Alex Cuthbert - 21

Scott Willaims - 21

You should get a job in the RFU - you'd fit right in !

red stag what happens if one of them picks up an injury too?

Spencer has done pretty well so far actually against Treviso and Biarritz. He wasn't overawed but to compete in the HC and the AP we need more.

Wigglesworth is out for 5-6 months.
De kock is out for 3 months.

Can we really rely on two young guys for 3 months at least?

munkian we need at least one more scrum half simply for cover.

Generally you have 2 scrum halves in the 23.

Aslongasbut100 wouldn't mind having Kevin Barrett back on loan or Pat Phibbs.

Beshocked, what happens if they don't?

You'll find out I'm sure. There is no Autumn International Window this year. Your don't need any more.

beshocked wrote:Aslongasbut100 wouldn't mind having Kevin Barrett back on loan or Pat Phibbs.

Hmm Do you a deal on Junior Polu? Tis my best offer

Wheel out Andy Gommersall, Or Get Peter Richards out of retirement.

propdavid would rather have ex Sarries Justin Marshall and Moses Rauluni.

No thanks aslongasbut100. Tell me if you change your mind about the other two players.

You'll find out I'm sure. There is no Autumn International Window this year. Your don't need any more

A veteran to provide temporary 3rd choice cover may be wise. It proved a good move for Tigers last year during the AIs where Youngs was with England and Tigers left with just Grindal and Harrison as no sooner was the 2 month cover signed but Harrison was out for 3 weeks with a knock.

Having said that Ben Youngs made his debut at 16 and a couple of weeks later appeared in a GP final.

propdavid_london wrote:Wheel out Andy Gommersall, Or Get Peter Richards out of retirement.

Peter Richards retired? Well at least we still have Phil Vickery.

May have to borrow that, LT, hope you don't mind?

It's good to see another product of Exeter Chiefs' academy getting 1st XV experience, although Manchester may lay greater claim to developing Ben Spencer through Minis and Juniors..

So Neil is out but they have signed Johann Bull from Natal Sharks....

Ahhh nah its just a Kock and bull story...

Dubbelyew L Overate true but without an Aviva Premiership club signing Ben Spencer he wouldn't have been playing at the top level.

I complain about the senior England management but can't complain about the U18s and U20s. Always picking our players.

Ben Spencer has been picked for England U20s because he is in the Saracen's squad. Would he have been considered if was still at Cambridge? Debatable.

You get your lucky breaks and Ben Spencer has a real opportunity to cement his place at Saracens. Injuries do open up opportunities. E.g. look at James Short and Owen Farrell who took theirs.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So Neil is out but they have signed Johann Bull from Natal Sharks....

Ahhh nah its just a Kock and bull story...

You think his could have a big impact on the Sarries-Saints match this weekend?

beshocked wrote: Ben Spencer has been picked for England U20s because he is in the Saracen's squad. Would he have been considered if was still at Cambridge? Debatable.

Given that the U-20 squad was announced on 1 September, and that Sarries only signed Ben a couple of days before that as World Cup cover for Wiggy, albeit after him training with them and playing pre-season games over the summer, it is indeed debatable. I'm more inclined to think that he was signed by Sarries because he had been picked for U-20 rather than the other way round.

There's no doubt, though, that Sarries, and the unfortunate injuries, are giving him excellent opportunities, more so than if he had been loaned/DR'd back to Cambridge after RWC as was the original plan. Cambridge might have some mixed emotions, though.

Dubbelyew L overate you'll have to tell me the stats but how many England U20s players have been picked which aren't from either an Aviva Premiership team or Championship side?

How many England U20s have come from the Cambridge side?

I presume the answer is none but if you can prove me wrong....

Beshocked,

I don't know the stats for U-20 selection either, but I suspect that if Sarries had signed Ben a couple of days later, he would have been the first Tier 3 pick, certainly in recent years. I suspect that a click over to Juggler at Rugby Rebels might give us the answer.

However, he was one of three Cambridge players selected for England Counties XV earlier this year (as was Ben Foden at a similar age a few years ago) so he has been on England's radar. He would have been anyway, after his stint at Exeter Chiefs England Regional Academy.

The question is would he have been selected for U-20 if not at an England Regional Academy regardless of his abilities - perhaps not. Hence my thought that Sarries might have been encouraged, behind the scenes, to sign him just a couple of days before the announcement. I'm not sure if the £20k odd that the RFU pay for each U-20 squad member goes into the EPL smoothing pot, or not, but it may have made a difference.

Dubbelyew l overate a player still needs an opportunity to shine.

Do you think Ben Spencer got picked on his exploits for Cambridge?

As you mentioned Ben Spencer played in Saracens pre season. This gave everyone the opportunity to see him train and play with a top tier team.

I don't think he would have been picked unless he played for a top tier team which he did.

Saracens signed him because they were pleased with his performances. Nothing to do with any behind the scenes IMO.

Even just training with Saracens would have put Spencer on the radar.

I would suspect he'd have been on the radar anyway as the England age group scouts would have picked him up from his county recognition etc. Sarries scouts more than likely saw him playing at that level as well and organised a trial as he was available. His selection for the under 20s might not be based on Sarries signing of him but his game time for Sarries will help him cement that place and probabley claim the starting berth.

Sam I personally can't have seen England U20s management putting him in the squad unless he was representing a top tier team or at least had linkages with one.

He had links with Exeter previously and had played at the regional academies and at County level. I think they assumed he would be picked up by a professional club and dual registered out as is generally the case with players his age.

Ben Spencer would have been on England Rugby's database from his time at the Exeter Regional Academy, if not before. His selection for England Counties whilst playing for Cambridge at such a young age shows he was well thought of by England Rugby.

I don't believe that a few weeks of part time pre-season training with Sarries developed him from nowhere into an England representative, but it may well have been a good shop window for selectors to confirm his talents.

I do believe that he will develop enormously with Sarries, and that, however it came about, he is a very good signing.

Looks like Peter Stringer has been signed

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2011/1204/1224308555625.html

Austin Healey obviously rates Ben Spencer even to the point predicting that he & Farrell would be 9/10 for England in the future.
Big shout given our strength @ scrum half in England.

Good call on Stringer, still a quality scrumhalf and theres no point in him not even making the munster bench.

I think Peter Stringer would be a good temporary signing. He is very experienced with a very good pass.

Although I think that Stringer to Saracens benefits all parties, I still don't agree that the move should have been allowed. Saracens have four scrumhalves on their books.

red_stag wrote:Although I think that Stringer to Saracens benefits all parties, I still don't agree that the move should have been allowed. Saracens have four scrumhalves on their books.

Why not?

Two of teh scrum halves are long term injured. ERC rules state that teams can make one change to their squad for such situations before the end of the knockout stage - if a player is brought in to the club it has to be on a minimimu 3 month contract. Plenty of teams have made use of this in the past, Tigers with Tuqiri, Ospreys with januarie and Scarlets during LY prop crisis.
Sarries are taking a calculated risk thatthey do not get a consolidation of injuries elsewhere.

I know that London. They have four, two are injured - they have another two.

However I don't agree with the rule.

Allowing one change for injury seems fair to me. Cannot blame a club for then using the rules.

Oh no, can't blame them at all. Just don't agree with the rule.

Why could Scarlets not call up a prop from one of their feeder clubs?

Why did Ospreys need Januarie?

I am sure that Tigers had a winger somewhere in their squad.

There are two fit scrumhalves at Saracens.

Adding anyone to your HC squad requires an official change no matter where they come from.

Scarlets did call a player up from a feeder club I believe - but they still have to be added to the HC squad and have a minimum 3 month contract.

Also you are making it very unbalanced if you say Regions can add from feeder clubs, but clubs have to rely on the players at their squad (especially when they operate under a wage cap).

any way I guess we will have to agree to differ. i believe that allowing clubs a single change means they can cover things should they have a serious problem but cannot just change things willy nilly.

Sarrie have an A game tonight, and another couple coming up in the next few weeks. Normally, they'd call up a DR player to cover injuries in A games, but, as far as I'm aware, Ben Spencer is their only DR scrumhalf. They could probably risk having 2 scrumhalves playing 2 games a week for a short while, but very unwise for an extended period.

http://www.saracens.com/news/view.php?Id=6680

Confirmation on Saracens website. Do you think this is a good temporary signing? Personally I think it is. Peter Stringer is a good and experienced scrum half. If he will be as successful as Justin Marshall was I will be pleased.


I suppose if you're a Munster fan like red stag what happens if you lose O leary or Murray?

Have just got my tickets for Saracens/Ospreys at Wembley - looking forward to that, particularly now Richard Hill has retired! It was a bit painful at Vicarage Road last time around.

Duncan Williams would come in Beshocked. He mgiht even be ahead of Stringer in the pecking order already. A good scrum half, a great passer and doesn't take too many steps before getting rid of it. Up until last January he would have been rated ahead of Murray.