Has Federer learnt from Djokovic?

I think it is very clear.

What is the main difference between last night encounters and the FO 11...or any other previous defeat of Federer versus his main rival? the handling of BPs. This was pointed to me by Gallery Play, probably one of the best analyst of the game here on 606, though he might not agree on the "Federer learning from Djoko". I will leave him answer that one.

Watch Fed's first BP. It's nearly a minute long. Federer is put on the defensive at first but refuses to go for broke and like Djoko keeps rallying and regains authority on the rally. He ends up dictating but again avoids the panick drop shot like in FO 2011 or the FH that goes long or in the net. He keeps the ball in court...and waits for Nadal to go for too much, which he ends up doing!

That is clearly an acquired strategy and the product of studying the 6 losses of Nadal by Djokovic...Federer in 2006 or 7 said, "it doesn't matter how many UEs I make versus Nadal, That's what you have to do to beat him". Sure if you are on form but there is a safer way and Djoko showed how. Be patient, especially on teh BPs and wait for Nadal to go for too much like he does versus the rest of the tour. Federer never had a problem leading Nadal in points and get to BPs...it's what he does at BPs, SPs and MPs that has been his downfall versus Rafa. Maybe in 2011 he has learnt not to panich and come up with the suicidal shot but contain Nadal whose game is more physical and will probably tire first he sent from corner to corner.

Of course Federer cannot do that on every point cause he will be tired quickly and will lose what is his best weapon, his pace and timing.

You can also check on his 3rd BP at 2/0 in the second set, same tactic goes for the long rally and waits for Nadal to go for too much.

Could that be the beginning of the H2H reversal across all surfaces? It's along stretch of imagination of course but again, getting to BPs on the other surfaces was not the problem for Federer, it was converting them. Maybe now he knows.

starts at 2mn20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNIDDYiyzt0

I see what you mean about the break point - it was the longest rally in the game. However, as you point out, whether that is a tactic that would work in a match over 5 sets on clay is another story.

Tenez wrote: though he might not agree on the "Federer learning from Djoko". I will leave him answer that one.

It's ok, as long as you don't start threats like : "Is Djokovic better than Federer?"

gallery play wrote:

Tenez wrote: though he might not agree on the "Federer learning from Djoko". I will leave him answer that one.

It's ok, as long as you don't start threats like : "Is Djokovic better than Federer?"

Don't worry, he won't ....everyone knows who's the best

I was thinking a similar but different thing.

All of a sudden we get Federer going for the Nadal forehand hard and short/wide off his own backhand, pulling Nadal very wide, causing Nadal to have to move more central and thus taking more shots on his own weaker side.

Djokovic does this all the time and last night I was astonished to see Federer employing the same strategy. I doubt I've ever seen Rafa take more backhands against Federer; normally he camps in his deuce court. And when he did creep back over and get it onto Feds backhand, along came a raking wide backhand that left Nadal exposed.

I've seen Murray try the same thing recently too. Perhaps the word has got round.....

barrystar wrote:I see what you mean about the break point - it was the longest rally in the game. However, as you point out, whether that is a tactic that would work in a match over 5 sets on clay is another story.

Yep. Of course but Federer can play his game and gain confidence from those BPs. What killed him in FO 06, 07, Rome 06, Hamburg 08, AO 09 and FO11 and many more matches was the poor handling of those BPs, SPs, MPs. Yesterday his BP conversion rate was 4/6...exceptionally well compared to his record v Nadal and very similar to what Djoko gets nowadays.

bogbrush wrote:I was thinking a similar but different thing.

All of a sudden we get Federer going for the Nadal forehand hard and short/wide off his own backhand, pulling Nadal very wide, causing Nadal to have to move more central and thus taking more shots on his own weaker side.

Djokovic does this all the time and last night I was astonished to see Federer employing the same strategy. I doubt I've ever seen Rafa take more backhands against Federer; normally he camps in his deuce court. And when he did creep back over and get it onto Feds backhand, along came a raking wide backhand that left Nadal exposed.

I've seen Murray try the same thing recently too. Perhaps the word has got round.....

Yes BB but he has played like that for some times. The difference, imo, is that yesterday he chose to rally on those BPs without being too passive. He found the right tempo, not too aggressive, not too passive, putting pressure on Nadal as the rallies goes on. To me he clearly realised recently that Nadal refuses to go into too long rallies and tries to go for a winner after 25 shots. And that is probably something Federer and his camp discovered this year.

From Nadal's autobiography...

"Keeping going physically, never letting up, and putting up with everything that comes my way, not allowing the good or the bad—the great shots or the weak ones, the good luck or the bad—to put me off track. I have to be centered, no distractions, do what I have to do in each moment.

If I have to hit the ball twenty times to Federer’s backhand, I’ll hit it twenty times, not nineteen.

If I have to wait for the rally to stretch to ten shots or twelve or fifteen to bide my chance to hit a winner, I’ll wait.

There are moments when you have a chance to go for a winning drive, but you have a 70 percent chance of succeeding; you wait five shots more and your odds will have improved to 85 percent.

So be alert, be patient, don’t be rash."

Federer played Nadal, after reading this part, perhaps....

Yes LF and I suspect the oxygen demanding muscles of Nadal brings a limit to that number of rallies per point.

Tenez wrote:

bogbrush wrote:I was thinking a similar but different thing.

All of a sudden we get Federer going for the Nadal forehand hard and short/wide off his own backhand, pulling Nadal very wide, causing Nadal to have to move more central and thus taking more shots on his own weaker side.

Djokovic does this all the time and last night I was astonished to see Federer employing the same strategy. I doubt I've ever seen Rafa take more backhands against Federer; normally he camps in his deuce court. And when he did creep back over and get it onto Feds backhand, along came a raking wide backhand that left Nadal exposed.

I've seen Murray try the same thing recently too. Perhaps the word has got round.....

Yes BB but he has played like that for some times. The difference, imo, is that yesterday he chose to rally on those BPs without being too passive. He found the right tempo, not too aggressive, not too passive, putting pressure on Nadal as the rallies goes on. To me he clearly realised recently that Nadal refuses to go into too long rallies and tries to go for a winner after 25 shots. And that is probably something Federer and his camp discovered this year.

I'm not disagreeing on the patience; he was very much in control of himself, though some of those amazing flatter winners - had they gone into the net - might have had us all saying he'd rushed it. We can't forget that it was his incredible execution that was really distinctive.

I don't believe he had such a marked preparedness to make the backhand crosscourt a killer shot to that extent before. Watching Djokovic/Nadal, I've got used to seeing Nadal hit a forehand down the line to Djokovic's backhand and think "that wasn't wise, you're going to have to run like Hell now" as it rakes short and wide across; Federer had me thinking the same last night and that was a first.

This was a good win for Federer and I'm sure it'll help his confidence against Nadal in the future.
However, I don't think too much should be read into it mainly as Federer is clearly in top form and Nadal is far from it (I won't go into why, there seems to be more than one reason)
Playing patiently on BPs is too easy and obvious "solution" not to have been observed and implemented earlier.
Nadal's confidence has been battered so severely by Djokovic, that as the Guardian article suggest he simply needs to fin his old zest and start competing.
Next year should be a cracker.

noleisthebest wrote:This was a good win for Federer and I'm sure it'll help his confidence against Nadal in the future.
However, I don't think too much should be read into it mainly as Federer is clearly in top form and Nadal is far from it (I won't go into why, there seems to be more than one reason)
Playing patiently on BPs is too easy and obvious "solution" not to have been observed and implemented earlier.
Nadal's confidence has been battered so severely by Djokovic, that as the Guardian article suggest he simply needs to fin his old zest and start competing.
Next year should be a cracker.

Of course there isn't really a "next year"; in fact, the recent break constitutes the longest gap most of these guys have off the sport.

Tenez wrote:

barrystar wrote:I see what you mean about the break point - it was the longest rally in the game. However, as you point out, whether that is a tactic that would work in a match over 5 sets on clay is another story.

Yep. Of course but Federer can play his game and gain confidence from those BPs. What killed him in FO 06, 07, Rome 06, Hamburg 08, AO 09 and FO11 and many more matches was the poor handling of those BPs, SPs, MPs. Yesterday his BP conversion rate was 4/6...exceptionally well compared to his record v Nadal and very similar to what Djoko gets nowadays.

RG 2007 was a nightmare - something extraordinary like 13 BP's went begging, I could hardly bare to watch. I also noted in your extract that he was hitting high loopy forehands and backhands at times during the rally - usually down the middle to make Nadal move a bit, but not a lot, and presumably to prevent Nadal getting angles. The flatter stuff was going out wide.

bogbrush wrote:


I'm not disagreeing on the patience; he was very much in control of himself, though some of those amazing flatter winners - had they gone into the net - might have had us all saying he'd rushed it. We can't forget that it was his incredible execution that was really distinctive.

Yes but I make a distinction between the bread and butter points and the BPs. His execution was great in FO11 or FO 06 and 07 too. Fed will always go for winners more often than not. That's what makes him a good player. He can flatten FHs more easily in those "common" points, less pressure points. But on BPs, his handling of them, has cost him a lot in the past v Nadal.

barrystar wrote: I also noted in your extract that he was hitting high loopy forehands and backhands at times during the rally - usually down the middle to make Nadal move a bit, but not a lot, and presumably to prevent Nadal getting angles. The flatter stuff was going out wide.

Yes, good point. Also because Nadal loves to flatten it cross court on his BH side. That made the timing a tiny bit more difficult to Nadal. Very much the same difficulty Federer has while playing Rafa.

RG 2007 was 1/17 BPs converted by Federer.

laverfan wrote:RG 2007 was 1/17 BPs converted by Federer.

Very poor rate in AO09 too, I believe. He had BPs for a 61 20 lead in FO 06 too....Rome 06 MPs, Hamburg 08 SPs , etc..etc...

Tenez wrote:

laverfan wrote:RG 2007 was 1/17 BPs converted by Federer.

Very poor rate in AO09 too, I believe. He had BPs for a 61 20 lead in FO 06 too....Rome 06 MPs, Hamburg 08 SPs , etc..etc...

Next he needs to work out how to convert MP's vs. Djoko.......

Yep. unfortunately he cannot study Nadal for that!

AO 2009 - 6/19 BPs converted.
FO 2006 - 3/10 BPs converted.
Rome 2006 - 4/10 BPs converted.
Hamburg 2008 - 4/7 BPs converted.

Yes but it's about MPs and SPs in Rome and Hamburg as I was talking about. Wasn't Federer 5/1 up in that first set in hamburg with one or 2 SPs? Rome was one or 2 MPs?

I think what Nadal and even Djokovic have done on Federer BP's is play defensive strokes and try to lengthen rallies given that there is a higher % of a Federer error than a blitzing winner. I think what Federer did yesterday was clever and keeping the FH in play by not going for too much in the start of that particular rally. Federer was able to dictate play and control the tempo of the match. Last time he done this was back at Wimbledon 2006 for me. On BP's at the FO he did play aggressive and was unfortunate that the court had become slower compared to a week prior. I think also it was the only time I have seen Nadal comfortable on a tennis court this year.

That was a masterful performance by Federer and a joy to watch. I was kicking myself I messed up the ticket purchase when the OOP came out!

Unfortunately one swallow does not make a summer Tenez, so to suggest that deficit in their h2h to be reduced is a little too optimistic especially now. Perhaps 2 years ago maybe if Fed had found the solution maybe.

Surely with all the media available Annacone must have sifted through all Djoko's matches to see what exactly he does to Nadal now. I fully agree with the patience theory. In the past Fed has been too quick to throw in one of those daft drop shots which either hit the net or chased down by Nadal and hit for a passing winner. What won Fed the title last year was playing sensibly on the BPs. 3/3 as I recall. Nadal can play a horrible match but he pulls through because he plays the points that matter well. If Nadal has decided to include his tactics and strategies in his book and has compromised his game plan for the sake of adding to his fortune, he deserves it to come back and haunt him!

I hope Federer can gain some confidence out of this win and that it send a message to the others in the competition too. I just hope he is not peaking too early and falls short on the weekend. Hopefully he will retain his composure and does not get carried away with this win. He remarked after the FO Semi that he felt he played the final and won and I think it did distract him in the final. Its time he got it together because he does not have a lot of time left in the game. My only concern is whenever Federer has been chasing some record he always manages to let the pressure get to him and fall short. Happened at Wimbledon 08, USO 09 and I hope it does not happen here.

As an aside, it's looking more likely that the obscenity of him being ranked #4 won't last much longer.

I don;t think I agree with Federer letting the pressure get to him. If anything Federer has shown an amazing composure...bar obvisouly on those BPs which were the result of an "over excitment" of crossing the lines (BPs, SPs, MPs) for than the fear of it. It's different. When facing a physical player like Nadal, that pressure on big points is certainly increased knowing that being dragged into a long match would guarantee failure.

Djoko had the same problem v Nadal before. It's only when he got fit enough that he stopped panicking in those big points.

Fed if anything has shown great composure when it really mattered. Wimbledon 07 and did extremely well in 2008 considering the circumstances of him playing under par most of the year.

The USO loss had more to do with that stupid Super Sat than a loss of composure as Federer certainly completely dominated Delpotro until he lost a step and vital energy.

bogbrush wrote:As an aside, it's looking more likely that the obscenity of him being ranked #4 won't last much longer.

Yes and this is why I argued v CC about "deservedly" number 4. The system is not perfect. I won't blame it as It cannot be perfect but at least when there is so little difference in points we should be more cautious about saying things like the ranking doesn't lie or one deserves more than the other teh number 3 spot cause the ranking says so.