Top 5 UNDER-RATED fighters

Hey guys, just a follow on from the "Top 5 Over-Rated Fighters" topic which has generated som good feedback. Here is my list of the the Under-Rated to get us started:

Paulie Malignaggi - Has great slick and technique in the ring but has feather fists. If this guy had power, he could have been BIG.

Juan Manuel Marquez - Summed up how under rated he is last weekend when i think, along with millions, that he had upset a certain Manny Pacquiao. Showed fantastic counterpunching abilities and brilliant movement to almost pull of an upset which many feel he had clearly won.

Amir Khan - People are giving him a lot of stick and are begging for him to be knocked out. I also feel people dont think he is good enough to be where he is. Some guy the other week on Boxing Scene says Khan will get "pasted" by Peterson because Peterson is a "Rabid Dog" and that Khan "Just Aint Good Enough Y'all!". I think he is brilliant and that he could be Great.

Wladamir/Vitali Klitshcko - People under-rate these MASSIVLY as slow, boring machines that are easily hittable and that they are ruining the boxing H/W division. The fact is that they are not. They are simply superior athletes compared to the majority of fat bum champs aka Povetikin that are up there at the moment.


Bernard Hopkins - Always slated for boring fights, people always state he will lose as he ages overnight, he is slow, dirty etc etc . But everytime he comes out and turns it on. People underestimate his capabilities. Could be around a little longer.


Special Mention to Tyson Fury who has to be by far the sh***est excuse of a boxer on this planet. And his promoter is a joke as well. After his bum fight against some guy with feather fists (where Tyson was put clean on his arse), his trainier stated he could smash up the Klitschkos and Haye. Really? Well then make it happen and we will all see. I actually hate Tyson Fury. His style, the way he has no defence, his attitude, his weight, his face, his voice.......

Freddie Welsh - Have often seen him only just sneak into the top ten Brits and feel he gets a bit of a pasting for the no decision thing some others do not but if you look at his record and the number of HOF'ers beat such as Leonard, Attell and Driscoll he stands favourable comparison with any from these shores.

Jeffries - May open the can of worms on the other thread but has a record for beating greats at the weight perhaps only Ali can match, have seen people criticise him for getting away with it solely by being bigger, that to me is akin to criticising Tyson for using his speed.

Wlad K - Whilst I would not buy a career set and am not rewriting my top ten to find him a place he is a solid champion and for me there is something very admirable about the way he has rebuilt and dominated.

Ricardo Lopez - Not sure he is under rated but is perhaps overlooked, often forgotten when people talk about the best of the modern era but he did pretty much all you can ask of him and were he a little bigger he would be a mega star.

Kalumbay.

Mijares (OK maybe I just like him).

Primo Carnera - Not saying he's great or even that good, but think he has gotten a raw end of the deal, he got a bit better as his career went on from what I've seen, in terms of little things in ability and think he wasn't as pap as I've seen him been made out. Not criminally underrated or anything and still a tad pap I guess but he isn't that bad.

Good call Alex, as I have said many times anyone who can outbox Loughran for large parts as Carnera did is far from devoid of any ability.

Marco Huck - What? I like him...

Hello again d6.

As per the other thread I think this is very difficult as 'over-rated' is a relative term. Using Wlad as an example, whilst I am one of his many detractors I have no disagreement with him being placed in top-25 lists, which many do, it would only be if someone refused to consider him for, say, top-50 I'd consider them to be way under-rating him. If, on the other hand, they put him in top 10 (or even top 15 in my opinion) that'd be over-rating him.

With regards to some of your other suggestions, I don't think being widely considered an ATG could be 'under-rating' someone (B-Hop). I like nothing about him and was glad he got his comuppence against Dawson but that's not under-rating him, I just don't find his style appealing, at the end of the day you've got to respect his achievements and therefore his (future) ATG status.

I think calling Povetkin a chubber is harsh too, many HW fighters you could throw that at but not really him.

Agree with you regarding JMM though. I'd also be tempted to throw in Hatton as I think he had a stellar career (no pun intended) and achieved plenty both for himself and the sport whereas I think he sometimes gets unfairly labelled as one dimensional and only successful because of his affability and football support (like a Khan anti-thesis).

Wladimir Klitschko - Everytime he's in a fantasy match up with a guy that has a decent punch everyone straight away says, he will crumble - be scared - and all this hulabaloo. For me I don't think this is the case at all, the guy has a particular style and he got caught in some of his early fights but I think his chin is actually pretty decent, not quite like his brothers of course, but think he can handle a punch. Take the Haye fight for example, although a rare occassion to see David throw a punch there was a moment in the third where Haye cracked him with a good right hand, did Wlad falter, curl up into a ball? No, he stood up and pushed David back on the ropes with quite a bit of malice, didn't overcommit himself as that isn't his style but he was strong and was willing to throw punches back. He isn't the fraidy cat a lot make out he is.

Vladimir Klichko, seeing as no-one else has said him.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Vladimir Klichko, seeing as no-one else has said him.

He beat Haye, Haye is quality mate IMO

Mccallum
Marquez
Vasquez
Wlad
Bruno

Eusebio Pedroza - was absolutely shocked when he didn't make our Hall of Fame. Was even more shocked to see that so many have him outside their top ten 126 lb men of all time. Not the most graceful or law-abiding fighter by any means, but in a division where the likes of Dundee and Attell are held in such high esteem despite constantly flattering to deceive while champion and manipulating every circumstance to it's limit in order to stay at the top, I feel Pedroza managing ro reign for nineteen successful defences, beating a decent crop of fighters and risking his title in places like Puerto Rico, Japan, Italy, New Guinea, England, Korea, Venezuela, St Vincent and America deserves a loftier position than some give him.

Lou Ambers - too readily forgotten behind the other great Lightweights of his day such as Armstrong, Canzoneri, McLarnin and Ross when in reality he deserves to be remembered alongside such names as a true legend of the 135 lb weight class.

Tommy Burns - Will stress that I have no desire to paint him as en elite Heavyweight, but it gets forgotten that this man successfully defended the undisputed Heavyweight title eleven times - only Louis and Ali can trump him in that department. More impressive to me is how a 5'6" Heavyweight coped with men so much bigger than himself on a regular basis. Not a great Heavyweight but one of the more underrated ones, I think.

Freddie Steele - Borderline top ten Middleweight of all time for me, yet hardly ever gets a mention unless it's by the obsessives. Enjoyed covering him in my old 'forgotten greats' series.

Felix Trinidad - Now this is a strange one, perhaps. But it seems to me that people are all too quick to forget his Welterweight exploits and focus solely on how he was apparently 'exposed' by Hopkins. A great Welterweight losing to an even greater Middleweight is hardly new, and nor should it be a rod to beat Trinidad with. Make no mistake, Trinidad was a great, great Welterweight in his own right, and even if he was comfortably second best against Hopkins, his career and accomplishments stand comparison with all but a few to have emerged in the last two decades.

Juan Laporte?

Then again Haye isn't regarded as a true heavyweight hard hitter, will admit don't fancy Wlads chances against any of the greats while his brother would fare far better.

1. Julio Cesar Chavez- Seems to be primarily remember for Whitaker and Taylor with little recognition of the excellence that went before.
2. Roberto Duran- The greatest lightweight of them all but unfairly judged on his career moving through the weights.
3. Khaosai Galaxy- Much like Lopez more overlooked than under-rated, was one of the rare power hitters in the lower classes, could knock you out with either hand.
4. Gene Tunney- A victim of his time, one of the greatest light heavyweights of all time but labelled as a good but not great heavyweight after the Dempsey fights.
5. Vicente Saldivar- Been getting more recognition of late but rarely was his name mentioned among the featherweight greats as it rightly should have been.

Good call on Burns Chris, whilst I also agree his ability is understated the impact he had should not be understated, as I have mentioned on a thread previously the Jeffries retirement led to a lot of confusion and Hart was very rarely regarded as the true champion at the time, in beating Hart and O'Brien who many felt had a claim to the throne and then being a fighting champion Burns was instrumental in clearing up the confusion at this time.

Also, whilst he was well paid for doing so and his stance on this was not always consistent the fact remains Burns was the first heavyweight champion to break the colour line and for that he deserves our eternal respect and gratitude, just wish he'd done it against Langford rather than Johnson!

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Then again Haye isn't regarded as a true heavyweight hard hitter, will admit don't fancy Wlads chances against any of the greats while his brother would fare far better.

1. Julio Cesar Chavez- Seems to be primarily remember for Whitaker and Taylor with little recognition of the excellence that went before.
2. Roberto Duran- The greatest lightweight of them all but unfairly judged on his career moving through the weights.
3. Khaosai Galaxy- Much like Lopez more overlooked than under-rated, was one of the rare power hitters in the lower classes, could knock you out with either hand.
4. Gene Tunney- A victim of his time, one of the greatest light heavyweights of all time but labelled as a good but not great heavyweight after the Dempsey fights.
5. Vicente Saldivar- Been getting more recognition of late but rarely was his name mentioned among the featherweight greats as it rightly should have been.

Duran is still top 10 p4p for most - is slightly underrated - I always have him around 3 or 4 but not too much of a difference.

I actually think Duran is massively over rated but as I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a rolled like a drunk thread I'll leave it at that.

Disagree Jeff, but I'll be here all day fighting his corner so we shall leave it at that.

Fists of Fury wrote:Disagree Jeff,

Most folk do mate, slightly worrying for me the only two people who appear to agree with me are Truss and onetwo, never good.

rowley wrote:I actually think Duran is massively over rated but as I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a rolled like a drunk thread I'll leave it at that.

Will happily take you up on a reasonable debate over Duran, Jeff, as long as (like you alluded to) the 606v2 version of Uncle Sam doesn't come along to ruin it!

rowley wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Disagree Jeff,

Most folk do mate, slightly worrying for me the only two people who appear to agree with me are Truss and onetwo, never good.

Thats because Truss is a yank who loves SRL too much and Onetwo thinks you are the notorious b.i.g and wants to call you big poppa

Yeah I think theres an equal argument that Duran and JCC are overrated by many. Their actual boxing skills are sometimes underrated but in an overall sense I dont think they can claim to underrated. Adored by millions to this day and almost always in the top 20 of all time lists that I see.

88Chris05 wrote:

rowley wrote:I actually think Duran is massively over rated but as I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a rolled like a drunk thread I'll leave it at that.

Will happily take you up on a reasonable debate over Duran, Jeff, as long as (like you alluded to) the 606v2 version of Uncle Sam doesn't come along to ruin it!

Unfortunately I think he's gone.

Revenge is sweet.

Scottrf wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

rowley wrote:I actually think Duran is massively over rated but as I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a rolled like a drunk thread I'll leave it at that.

Will happily take you up on a reasonable debate over Duran, Jeff, as long as (like you alluded to) the 606v2 version of Uncle Sam doesn't come along to ruin it!

Unfortunately I think he's gone.

??

88Chris05 wrote:

rowley wrote:I actually think Duran is massively over rated but as I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a rolled like a drunk thread I'll leave it at that.

Will happily take you up on a reasonable debate over Duran, Jeff, as long as (like you alluded to) the 606v2 version of Uncle Sam doesn't come along to ruin it!

Managing to have a civil Duran debate would be a first mate, should say I obviously rate him and although I have Leonard top have genuinely no problem with him being considered number one lightweight, I just struggle to have him top ten and even if he sneaks in mine is nowhere near as high as many others do. Also think he does get a pass from many on some of his losses, many of which were not as far past his prime as is often portrayed,is great no doubt but for me maybe not as great as many feel in my opinion.

ShahenshahG wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

rowley wrote:I actually think Duran is massively over rated but as I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a rolled like a drunk thread I'll leave it at that.

Will happily take you up on a reasonable debate over Duran, Jeff, as long as (like you alluded to) the 606v2 version of Uncle Sam doesn't come along to ruin it!

Unfortunately I think he's gone.

??

TRUSSMAN no longer posts.

I think that Chavez should be knocking on the door of the top ten but is usually around the 20-30 mark which I feel is far too low for someone with his record, talent and accomplisments.


When I say Duran is under rated, I was alluding more to his ability than his standing, often gets portrayed as a brawler but highlighted numerous times he was a very adept boxer.

rowley wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

rowley wrote:I actually think Duran is massively over rated but as I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a rolled like a drunk thread I'll leave it at that.

Will happily take you up on a reasonable debate over Duran, Jeff, as long as (like you alluded to) the 606v2 version of Uncle Sam doesn't come along to ruin it!

Managing to have a civil Duran debate would be a first mate, should say I obviously rate him and although I have Leonard top have genuinely no problem with him being considered number one lightweight, I just struggle to have him top ten and even if he sneaks in mine is nowhere near as high as many others do. Also think he does get a pass from many on some of his losses, many of which were not as far past his prime as is often portrayed,is great no doubt but for me maybe not as great as many feel in my opinion.

Rushed to get your explanation before the captain returned? I do think Duran gets a pass but then so do the others. Hagler for beaten up people coming up and struggling with 2 out of the 3. Hearns for losing when he should have won and only winning and that against a natural lightweight and SRL for losing to Duran in the first place - getting outskilled by Hearns - although credit for his turn around and for always putting everything in his favour then boasting about his cleverness - in effect giving reasons for his win that nothing to do with his own skillset.

rowley wrote:Managing to have a civil Duran debate would be a first mate, should say I obviously rate him and although I have Leonard top have genuinely no problem with him being considered number one lightweight, I just struggle to have him top ten and even if he sneaks in mine is nowhere near as high as many others do. Also think he does get a pass from many on some of his losses, many of which were not as far past his prime as is often portrayed,is great no doubt but for me maybe not as great as many feel in my opinion.

Number one in one of the most glamorous divisions, stepped up to beat a great Welterweight, why would top 10 be a stretch?

Think I am right in saying Shah the captain had Duran outside his top ten the last time we put them up although I could be wrong, think he has not forgiven him for beating Ken just yet.

Scottrf wrote:

rowley wrote:Managing to have a civil Duran debate would be a first mate, should say I obviously rate him and although I have Leonard top have genuinely no problem with him being considered number one lightweight, I just struggle to have him top ten and even if he sneaks in mine is nowhere near as high as many others do. Also think he does get a pass from many on some of his losses, many of which were not as far past his prime as is often portrayed,is great no doubt but for me maybe not as great as many feel in my opinion.

Number one in one of the most glamorous divisions, stepped up to beat a great Welterweight, why would top 10 be a stretch?

Don't recall saying it would Scott, have even said he could sneak in mine but if he did it would very much be at the lower reaches and certainly nowhere near as high as many have him.

Captain did in fact have Duran at number 15 Rowley.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Captain did in fact have Duran at number 15 Rowley.

Told you the Buchanan defeat had hit him hard.

rowley wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

rowley wrote:I actually think Duran is massively over rated but as I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a rolled like a drunk thread I'll leave it at that.

Will happily take you up on a reasonable debate over Duran, Jeff, as long as (like you alluded to) the 606v2 version of Uncle Sam doesn't come along to ruin it!

Managing to have a civil Duran debate would be a first mate, should say I obviously rate him and although I have Leonard top have genuinely no problem with him being considered number one lightweight, I just struggle to have him top ten and even if he sneaks in mine is nowhere near as high as many others do. Also think he does get a pass from many on some of his losses, many of which were not as far past his prime as is often portrayed,is great no doubt but for me maybe not as great as many feel in my opinion.

I can understand the point about his losses; even if Laing was capable of the sublime when he felt like it, Duran still had no business losing to him, and nor should such a moderately-talented fighter like Sims have scored a win over him, even if Duran was mid thirties at the time. Hagler? Would never in a million years hold that one against Duran, given that he actually got within reasonable distance of causing an upset against one of the best 160 lb men of all time. Can't see any other Lightweight great doing that. Benitez is a bit more of a grey area; I genuinely think that had that fight happened two or three years earlier at 140 lb, Duran wins it, though that's purely speculation.

I see Lightweight, along with Welterweight, Middleweight and Light-Heavyweight, as being part of an almost holy foursome when it comes to deciding which division is the best, historically speaking - and Duran won titles in three of them, and two of those were for pretty much universal recognition at the weight. I believe that his Lightweight career alone coupled with his Welterweight scalps (as well as Leonard there were two very efficient champions in Palomino and Cuevas) would make Duran a top ten man alone. Everything after that, of course, was very hit and miss but I'm not sure it undoes all the fabulous work he did between 1968 and 1980. Would still have him at the low end of my top ten personally, but I see your point.

Chris to be honest don't think we are too far away on this. Do not hold the Hearns mauling against him as Tommy was just one of those guys who could do that to you on his night and would no more bring up the late 80s losses for Duran than I would McBride for Tyson, it is the Laing and Benitez ones that stick in my craw as they were only a couple of years after the Leonard fight. You may well be right that his light weight reign and the Leonard win alone are enough for a top ten berth, however it is more when people are willing to put forward the likes of Moore and Barclay as evidence of his greatness but totally dismiss the Laing loss, always struck me as a bit have your cake and eat it.

I'd say Duran is underrated to be honest. A lot of historians have him below Roy Jones at lightweight:

http://www.thebestfighters.com/the_best_boxers.htm

I think Duran usually is rated top 10 though. He would have to be seen as outside the top 15 for me to consider him being underrated to a significant degree.

JCC would be lower reaches of the top 20 mark for me probably. He has a pretty long record but its filled with a combination of mainly average and good fighters but very few great ones which I think hurts his claim for a top 15 spot. I think may have only beaten one or two HoF fighters in over 100 fights.

I wouldnt particularly take issue with someone having him just outside the top ten but I wouldnt consider placing him in the bottom end of the top 20 as underrating him.

By boxing fans:

Mike Tyson - Top 10 heavy for me 8 -> 10, totally destroyed world class opposition and revitalised the sport.

Michael Nunn - I truly believe the Nunn that beat Tate would have given any middleweight in history nightmares - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEVD1PD_lXA Don't forget he also sparked the also underrated Kalambay.

Lloyd Honeyghan - just gets forgotten, won the undisputed title against an extremely well respected champion.

Naz - One of the greatest fighters this country's produced.

Think I'd have to throw Tommy Ryan in to the mix; a full two-weight world champion when only five weight divisions were in existence, fought over one hundred bouts and lost only three of them - one by disqualification, which was avenged. Didn't lose either or his Welterweight or Middleweight titles in the ring, either, though Charles 'Kid' McCoy knocked him out (in odd circumstances, but that's another story) first time out in what was effectively a fight for the Middleweight crown vacated by Fitzsimmons. That aside, he was unbeatable on the big occasion. Wins over the 'Nonpareil' Jack Dempsey, Mysterious Billy Smith and the like still look good even from this distance.

fearlessBamber wrote:Mike Tyson - Top 10 heavy for me 8 -> 10, totally destroyed world class opposition and revitalised the sport.

Which "world class opposition" was that?

He has only two "world class" names on his cv, Holyfield and Lewis. Unless you are counting Larry Holmes?

88Chris05 wrote:Think I'd have to throw Tommy Ryan in to the mix; a full two-weight world champion when only five weight divisions were in existence, fought over one hundred bouts and lost only three of them - one by disqualification, which was avenged. Didn't lose either or his Welterweight or Middleweight titles in the ring, either, though Charles 'Kid' McCoy knocked him out (in odd circumstances, but that's another story) first time out in what was effectively a fight for the Middleweight crown vacated by Fitzsimmons. That aside, he was unbeatable on the big occasion. Wins over the 'Nonpareil' Jack Dempsey, Mysterious Billy Smith and the like still look good even from this distance.

Tony Sibson would have beaten them all on one night.

I've been debating with az for too long.

Union Cane wrote:

fearlessBamber wrote:Mike Tyson - Top 10 heavy for me 8 -> 10, totally destroyed world class opposition and revitalised the sport.

Which "world class opposition" was that?

He has only two "world class" names on his cv, Holyfield and Lewis. Unless you are counting Larry Holmes?

Lewis and Holyfield are all time great class. Id say alot of the opposition Tyson beat in the 80s were world class. He basically cleared out the division in the 80s by beating nearly all the top contenders.

Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, Bruno, Smith, Tubbs, Berbick, Thomas all former, current or future WORLD title holders.

Take a look at this like:

www.google.com - it supplements boxrec very very well

fearlessBamber wrote:Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, Bruno, Smith, Tubbs, Berbick, Thomas all former, current or future WORLD title holders.

Take a look at this like:

www.google.com - it supplements boxrec very very well

fearlessBamber 1 - 0 Union Cane

fearlessBamber wrote:Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, Bruno, Smith, Tubbs, Berbick, Thomas all former, current or future WORLD title holders.

Take a look at this like:

www.google.com - it supplements boxrec very very well

Sorry, I'm not having that. Is Danny Williams under rated then, as he doesn't get due credit for beating former WORLD title holder Mike Tyson, as well as former WORLD title holder Audley Harrison?

Andre Ward - labelled a spoiler and dirty for use of the head but is a supreme boxer and SCHOOLED Kessler.

Tim Bradley too for similar reasons and the fact he ducked Khan make people think he isn't able to beat him and is scared. Really he's in a business and when they do eventually get it on it will be a much bigger fight

Union Cane wrote:

fearlessBamber wrote:Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, Bruno, Smith, Tubbs, Berbick, Thomas all former, current or future WORLD title holders.

Take a look at this like:

www.google.com - it supplements boxrec very very well

Sorry, I'm not having that. Is Danny Williams under rated then, as he doesn't get due credit for beating former WORLD title holder Mike Tyson, as well as former WORLD title holder Audley Harrison?

Tyson beat those guys in or around their best years, Holmes notwithstanding. Tyson was a shell when Williams beat him, and you're just being silly using a WBF Champion as an example.

In some ways it's a shame that Tyson came along then, as with all those world class fighters on the scene at the same time it could have been an even greater version of the heavyweight division's 70s heyday.

fearlessBamber wrote:By boxing fans:

Mike Tyson - Top 10 heavy for me 8 -> 10, totally destroyed world class opposition and revitalised the sport.

Michael Nunn - I truly believe the Nunn that beat Tate would have given any middleweight in history nightmares - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEVD1PD_lXA Don't forget he also sparked the also underrated Kalambay.

Lloyd Honeyghan - just gets forgotten, won the undisputed title against an extremely well respected champion.

Naz - One of the greatest fighters this country's produced.

Would disagree that Naz Hamed is UNDER RATED. I think the guy was exposed against Barrera. He had bags of talent but it got to his head in the end. He ended up sacking his trainer, converting to muslim, doing his own training and routines....then BANG. Smashed up by The Baby Faced Assasin, then pretty much retiring after a low key draw in the bout after. Waste of time and money that guy. He WAS good, but by no means great or under-rated.