Saints vs Sarries

NORTHAMPTON SAINTS TEAM TO PLAY SARACENS
Aviva Premiership Rugby Round 9
Franklin’s Gardens
Saturday, November 26th, 2011
Kick off 5:00pm
15 Ben FODEN
14 Chris ASHTON
13 George PISI
12 James DOWNEY
11 Jamie ELLIOTT
10 Ryan LAMB
9 Lee DICKSON
1 Soane TONGA’UIHA
2 Dylan HARTLEY (capt)
3 Paul DORAN JONES
4 Courtney LAWES
5 Mark SORENSON
6 Phil DOWSON
7 Tom WOOD
8 Roger WILSON

Replacements
16 Mike HAYWOOD
17 Alex WALLER
18 Brian MUJATI
19 Samu MANOA
20 Ben NUTLEY
21 Martin ROBERTS
22 Stephen MYLER
23 Jon CLARKE




Saracens line-up vs Northampton Saints

15 Alex Goode
14 David Strettle
13 Chris Wyles
12 Brad Barritt
11 James Short
10 Owen Farrell
9 Ben Spencer
1 Rhys Gill
2 John Smit
3 Carlos Nieto
4 Steve Borthwick (c)
5 Mouritz Botha
6 Kelly Brown
7 Jacques Burger
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Jamie George
17 Deon Carstens
18 Matt Stevens
19 George Kruis
20 Jackson Wray
21 Luke Baldwin
22 Adam Powell
23 Duncan Taylor

Pretty strong teams. Both taking it very seriously. Saints interestingly don't want to give their England boys a rest. Will be interesting to see how the furore surrounding the England world cup debacle affects the Saints boys.

4 noticeable absentees for Sarries - Charlie Hodgson is out with the knee injury, Schalk Brits still serving his 3 week ban and two first choice scrum halves out for most of the season. This means a reshuffle of the backline. Ben Spencer the 19 year old ex Cambridge scrum half starts yet again leading to a very youthful halfback combo as Farrell moves to fly half.

Wyles moves to outside centre as the short term solution in that area.

Largely settled pack. Stevens makes way for the more adept scrummager Nieto.


The Saints side is made up of the usual suspects with the England boys being the backbone of their team.

1st post on the rugby boards
2 strong looking sides , interested to see how Spencer goes as the scrum half position is his for the season
Looking forward to this one Sarries have had our number in prem last couple of seasons
Most of the Saints England boys got plenty of rest during the World cup

2 very strong lineups!

A lot has been made of saints poor form in the HC but i dont think they played that badly. You could argue they will be morally down on themselves but equally that they will come out fighting.

Sarries do seem to have a good record at FG and a betting man would probably back them to win but I just feel the sinats will take this.
It will be interestinf to see who wins the forward battle and also to see if the saints can breakdown the best defence in the country.

Forward Pass welcome to the rugby boards. Yes we have had your number particularly in the last two seasons but also statistically we have the best head to head in the AP against Saints incorporating all our AP encounters. Why? I don't know.

Will this record bother Saints? No. You have a very talented side, you are at home. You will also want to put one over us. Of course you're capable too.

Spencer in the HC so far didn't look overawed. This boy has ice in his veins. I hope he can keep his cool, calm and assured approach vs Saints because it wouldn't surprise me if this match became fiery.

No love between these two sides though I am sure there is plenty of respect albeit probably grudging.

Matt HQ has a lot been said about Saint's poor HC form? They had a bad day at the office vs Scarlets but other than that they put up a good fight vs Munster and were unfortunate.


How much do you think the English world cup aftermath revelations will affect the Saints boys?

Just another point does anyone else think Saints are incredible lucky with injuries? They seemed to be the most unaffected team in the AP IMO.

beshocked

I think we did well against Munster but were poor vs Scarlets
Also our decision making was terrible non stop kicking ball to a counter attacking team like Scarlets
We seem to be getting the wrong side of the refs at the minute which doesn't help

As for world cup hangover depends whether all the saints were in the same group as there seems to have been several factions not always seeing eye to eye

Injuries always tend to be more noticable when you loose a couple of players like your two S/H .Our turn will come

Fair enough forward pass. Non stop kicking of the ball is what we specialise in.

I don't think losing our two SHs is that much of a problem. I am confident we can win with the team we have out. I don't like to use injuries as an excuse and I generally don't.

It's just an observation about Saints I have made. You play your first XV almost non stop and they never seem to pick up injuries. Though it work both ways. Injuries mean other players get gametime and it can be useful for a youngster to get useful experience.

E.g. look at Leicester they have many injuries but it means their fringe players get vital experience.

We'll see tomorrow.

The question is do Saints have strength in depth now?

Yes we do play only about 18 players on a regular basis , which can lead to a big gulf between the starters and the bench players

Last year it certainly backfired as during both the Semi vs Tigers & the HC final vs Leinster we ran out of steam and our bench was not good enough to replace the starting 15

pains me to say it but Tigers squad is stronger than ours .I'm impressed with the way they replace players year after year

Of the players we recruited for this year only PDJ is already good enough
the rest are works in progress so to speak

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15889580.stm

Guscott is an complete and utter idiot. Not because he thinks Saints will win. They have a good chance to so why not back them. What I object to is him mentioning Brits in his preview when he should know that he is banned!

"Sarries have looked pretty good all season in all competitions"

No they haven't. They got hammered in the Low Value cup vs Saints. They played poorly against Biarritz. The only competition they have been excellent in is of course the AP.

"For me they are not the vintage of 2009/10 that didn't win anythng when their second half of that season was so thrilling."

Hilarious.

"If they can find that balance of styles, I think they could be pretty difficult to stop. "

They are difficult to stop. That's why Saracens are the champions.



A chimp could have given a more thought provoking and accurate preview than Guscott. Probably more brains too.

No Cato? Has he had a start this season?

forward pass

If tigers have a stronger squad, who has the stronger first 15?

beshocked

i always like reading guscotts features on the bbc website.

predictions and espsecially exact scores are incredibly difficult.

but you are right, to not notice that brits is banned is criminal. he is being paid to write that feature and should research it properly.

ive always found guscotts predictions suprisingly accurate

as for the Brits error....

Agree that it is two very strong sides, although I think we (Saints) have a slightly stronger bench due to the Sarries injuries but don't think it will make a game changing difference. Concerned that some of the Saints boys may loose their cool in light of the England fallout of the last few days. Who would have thought that Sarries would have benefited so much from their lack of representation in the England squad?

Heart says Saints, head says Sarries by 5. Also agree that Guscott is a bit of an idiot. Didn't mind his arrogance as a player as he had the skills to back it up but he just comes across as foolish as a pundit.

Also, a question for Beshocked. Why doesn't Powell get more game time? Always rated him but he never seems to get much of a look in (eg Wyles out of position at OC before him)

HQ matt wrote:forward pass

If tigers have a stronger squad, who has the stronger first 15?

Last 3 seasons suggest its pretty even between the 2 sides , obviously Tigers won the most important game last seasons S/F

I still don't get why Lamb starts over Myler. Myler helped them get to the HEC final. Lamb still makes dumb mistakes and Myler controls a match better.

I'd go for a Saints win. I know people are talking about the HC losses but to look at it objectively, Munster are a class act. They are an incredibly difficult team to beat particularly in Europe as that's the competition they target. The Saints ran them very close, couldn't really have been closer tbf but Munster have a nack / skill / the experience - call it what you like - to win games in the dying seconds. The Saints played well and only just lost to one of the best sides in the competition.
The game against the Scarlets was a different matter. Teams outside of the pro 12 often underestimate us and try to play an open game. The more you kick the ball and the more the game breaks up the better the chances if the Scarlets capitalising. There's an international backline at the Scarlets so when the ball goes wide we're a match for anyone.
The Saints are hurting as they feel they could/should have beaten Munster and got it wrong against the Scarlets. They've got something to prove as a club side and the England players have something to prove after underperforming in both the world cup and HC. My money would be on the Saints to edge it.

impressive start by NH, currently 17 - 3 to NH

great try by pisi!

Sarries really need to stop dropping balls and England need to concentrate on basing their back row around Tom Wood.

Saints scrum is strange, I cant see how a referee can apparently never penalise them for a). pushing early and b). standing up immediately. It is a trade mark.

maestegmafia wrote:Sarries really need to stop dropping balls and England need to concentrate on basing their back row around Tom Wood.

Saints scrum is strange, I cant see how a referee can apparently never penalise them for a). pushing early and b). standing up immediately. It is a trade mark.

to be fair, every team is trying to cheat in the scrum. I suppose the ref is trying to let go the lesser of two evils!

27 - 3 to NH now.

Wow.. saints are angry and Sarries are feeling it.

got to admit, as a tigers fan i'm not happy. I want sarecens to win, makes our climb up the table a bit easier!!!

At Half time you would have to tell Farrell to stop kicking away all Saracens ball maybe try something different

Saints must be kicking themselves for saving all the good performances for the Amlin.
75% of that halves performance would have been better than what they gave against the Scarlets.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Saints must be kicking themselves for saving all the good performances for the Amlin.
75% of that halves performance would have been better than what they gave against the Scarlets.

Scarlets tackled and they had a better set of forwards. The Scarlets can also play rugby. Preistland had a great kicking game that destroyed Saints, Farrell is woefully aimless with boot, and passes without knowing if its on or not...

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Saints must be kicking themselves for saving all the good performances for the Amlin.
75% of that halves performance would have been better than what they gave against the Scarlets.

Scarlets tackled and they had a better set of forwards. The Scarlets can also play rugby. Preistland had a great kicking game that destroyed Saints, Farrell is woefully aimless with boot, and passes without knowing if its on or not...

As Shaun Edwards said at HT Saints are a better side than they showed last week and that was my point too.
They have come back strong. Scarlett's played out of their skins yes but personally I believe Saints would win most games between the sides and even Scarlets fans were saying they would be happy with a LBP.

Definitely would not have expected Scarlets to beat Saints at Franklins gardens, but comparing a very good Scarlets team to this Saracens side is a bit unfair. Sarries are dire.

Looking forward to the Home and Away fixtures between Sarries and Ospreys. the O's are not playing at all well but they are better than Sarries.

Saints are very good.

maestegmafia wrote:Definitely would not have expected Scarlets to beat Saints at Franklins gardens, but comparing a very good Scarlets team to this Saracens side is a bit unfair. Sarries are dire.

Looking forward to the Home and Away fixtures between Sarries and Ospreys. the O's are not playing at all well but they are better than Sarries.

Ospreys can't be all that bad they drew with the Scarlets

I wish that result was some reflection of the talent they have at their disposal, but they have looked like a team in the first few matches of a season over the last few games..

Connacht are a good team, so if you want watch s4C after and watch one team playing good rugby while probably loosing to a team playing rubbish rugby. Hopefully the better team wins.

Anyhow, back to Saries saints, Strettle looks alright for Saracens. I cant think of much else decent to say about them.

As we said above Saints markedly better without Pisi at full back.

they still drop the ball a hell of a lot

Saints certainly seem to have had their focus put back on track this week. Dickson is looking much better, he's a cornerstone to this side and if he's not in form Saints suffer heavily. Big difference with Dowson & Foden starting as well, Clark is a good a player, but Dowson is a key force & leader, and Pisi should never have started at FB given the quality of Priestland's kicking game (is Tonks injured?).

Dickson, Wood & Foden have been outstanding.

Farrell is having an absolute mare.

It is a shame that Saints did not get a fourth try.Saints was by and large the better team today, Sarries will feel disapointed with them selves.

All those fans shouting for Owen Farrel to Englands 10, may well think twice before opening their mouths, after to days performance. But then again every body has an off day in suppose.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Dickson, Wood & Foden have been outstanding.

Foden made a huge difference at fullback, pisi was awful and an easy target last weekend, Wood is consistently a very good player, Dickson is like a different man. he was awful last week, but very industrious and lively today.

Very pleased that my initial pessimism over this fixture was proved wrong. Amazing how the saints can go from being so woeful one week to convincingly beating the english champions the next. Sitting through 3 defeats to sarries at the gardens over the past 2 years makes it all the sweeter!

Thought Wilson was excellent at the back of a suprisingly creeky saints scrum, matt stevens made a sizeable impact when he came on. Dicko is the heartbeat of the side.

Cannot believe how one dimensional saracens were though, never really threatened to score apart from at the end. The second half backlash i was half expecting (saints fans are not ones for half time chicken counting after cardiff) never came, not helped by farrells uncharacteristically poor display.

highlight of the game? the terraces singing 'whats it like to see a crowd' when the attendance was announced.

I finally watched the replay of the Saints-Sinners (Sarries) match. I completely agree about how Saints play with Dickson at 9 and in form. He gets to the breakdiown as fast as any scrum half playing now - anywhere - and gets his passes off quick, on target, and to the best option. The team moves, and moves forwards with him in there. He is always barking directions and really gives real form to the team on attack. And, as a last point, and this sounds a bit weird, he really seems to be enjoying him self playing. Similing a lot when everyone else on the pitch on all sides have a look on their faces somewhere between serious and constipated.

So my questions are:
England?
Saints captain?
Rest him for the big matches?
Put him up for MP from Northants?

To answer the great doctor -

England? - Previous England Management really didn't rate him, wasn't even in the Saxons. Can't believe he wasn't in the top five English scrum half's last year.
Saints captain? - Could be an idea, although I'm thinking JM will not want to demoralise Hartley even more than the world cup already did.
Rest him for the big matches? - With Roberts at the club he should get some more rest chances this year. Problem is he is often the difference between the team playing well and playing crap
Put him up for MP from Northants? - He's a professional club rugby player used to working 9 months of the year. Being an MP would give him too much free time

Being serious (for once), he would be the 3rd scrum half in the EPS along with Youngs & Care if I was selecting. Fast service and the balls to bark orders at the forwards. He's also pretty good positional wise when defending.

On another note the game today just went to prove even more where England got their team wrong during the WC. Wood was pure class today, putting in just about the total back row display. Not sure why people feel he should not play open side, just because he is taller than your average seven doesn't mean he can't play the position.

B,
OK, I will be serious for a moment too. I am not seeing anything from Care or Youngs that Dickson doesn't do as well or better, except for that initial running step carrying the ball. And Dickson plays with a part of his body which Youngs and Care sometimes struggle with: the brain.

And for your comment about Wood, I can't agree more. I am still in a quandry how the England player of the 6N can barely get match time in the RWC. Boggles the mind. He was terrific yesterday, as usual. I hope Saints have his contract tied up for a long time to come.

Dickson doesn't threaten the line much at AP level and I suspect this would be even less on the Int stage.

A good solid scrum half though who I would possibly throw in the mix as an alternative to Youngs and Care. Issues I might have is Dickson tends to shine when Saints forward pack is dominating....how many games do England dominate up front?

Much better than Simpson though who i just don't rate.

Sarge,
I suppose we don't know how Dickson would do going backwards, partially because his pack usually doesn't go backwards.

But by being the scrum-half who gets to the breakdown quickest in the AP, he frequently doesn't allow anything time to go backwards. And not every 9 needs to be Carl Lewis. He is a thinking man's 9, and I would love to see if he can have the impact at the top level that he does at club level.

Dr G

I was surprised how well he played vs Sarries because the two other games I have seen of him one against the Ospreys and the other against the Scarlets he was awful completely out shone by Davies (sc) and Habersham (os).

Anyhow good game vs Sarries hopefully he shows that form for you more often than not.

Wigglesworth is also a thinking mans 9 and look how he went at Int level. At the very top defences are so well drilled you need more then just a quick pass, unless you have the like of Carter outside you, you need to either be a power runner (Mike Philips) or lightning quick (Genia,Care,Youngs) so that you can worry defences yourself as well.

He should be in the Saxons though, and if he ruins a bit more then in the EPS.

We were rubbish.Clueless in attack, hopeless in defence.
It was painful to watch. I don't mind losing but I at least want my team to go down fighting.

Saints had a good day at the office, were more motivated and pumped up for this match than we were. They had more of a point to prove.

Saracens did exactly what I expected to do and not what I wanted - repeatedly kicking the ball away. Even when 20 points down. Showed no ambition and defended very poorly.

Maestegmafia Saracens are not a bad side. You should know that one result is not the end of the world. Were you one of the cretins panning Saints after they lost to Scarlets?

I could well be writing off the O's after they could only manage a draw with Treviso but I am not.

Congratulations on the win Saints but I believe this is the kick up the backside the Sarries' players needed. The intensity and performance was non existent.

Farrell missing touch twice was one of the lowlights for me. He had a very poor game.

It's not the end of the world at all. We are still 2nd. Have got quite a few tough away games out of the way now - Gloucester (W),Bath (W), Exeter (W), Leicester (W), Saints (L).

I want to see an instant backlash against London Irish.

Can't see saracens losing two on the bounce.

Question is will they go out like Saints did and play to win the game in style. Or will they go out against LI trying not to lose and shut up shop, defend and kick and make it a snooze fest?

The Scarlets can also play rugby. Preistland had a great kicking game that destroyed Saints

I think some dodgey reffing and the Stains repeatedly dropping every pass and kick helped quite a lot as well.

Farrell missing touch twice was one of the lowlights for me. He had a very poor game

Needed a big game if he wanted to be in the England fly half reckoning. What went wrong, was it a case of him using the boot to much or was he let down by the kick chase? Farrell was never going to be slicing Stains open with slick passing as that's just not his game.

Sam he did use the boot too much. Like any player he needs more to his game. When you are 20 points down you need to vary your game. You need to attack.

Missing touch twice when Saracens had two penalties/ opportunities to gain attacking lineouts showed his inexperience and nerves.

He was rattled. It didn't help that the half back combo was very inexperienced - a 19 and 20 year old.

At least some of the replacements put in a better show like Jackson Wray and Luke Baldwin.The game was over as a contest but at least somehow the try bonus point was prevented.

Why Saints didn't go for the bonus point baffles me. There was a clear opportunity to go for an attacking scrum or kick to the corner. They chose to kick 3 points when 24 points up. The game was won by then. Really odd tactical error by Saints.

Saracens did play better in the 2nd and won the 2nd half 5-3. Yes! Saints took off their star players.

Beshocked me old mate, felt for you on Saturday. I was watching the match up at my club and was expecting a close fought sizzler but it never really materialised. Once Saints got their noses infront they never really looked like being caught.

As mentioned earlier, Farrel was having a bit of a mare and kicking way too much. Now there is nothing wrong with a good Gary Owen when your looking to speculatively put the defence under pressure but his kicking seemed aimless & pointless, soon as you got good possession he just punted it away. Maybe that's being a bit harsh on the lad but he seems to flounder when he's not a having a nice ride behind the pack.

Thanks Metal Tiger. I went to the game live. It was not nice to watch. I was particularly disappointed by the intensity of Saracens. They certainly didn't look as fired up as the Saints boys. Even when coming off the Saracen's coach the players look subdued.

Saints started at a gallop and didn't stop. Saints are a very good side, were fired up and at home. They performed like we know they can.

I think this was Farrell's first game at 10 this season. It was tough for him. He was partnered with a 19 year old and his pack were getting beaten up badly.

This is a game I thought we would lose but not like this!