Fantasy fight

by azania Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

RJJ vs Sugar Ray Robinson at MW. Who wins?

I'd go for RJJ via 3-4 round UD. To fast, clever and skilled for the MW version of SRR.

by Rowley Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:26 pm

It's known as English Azania, once I finish teaching you about the old timers I'll teach you it, so we could both be waiting some time for that to happen.

by coxy0001 Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:27 pm

azania wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:
azania wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:Azania/Coxy - the insult hurling stops now.

Not my fault he is questionning the greatness of SRR. Point out that RJJ got pancaked by 2 extremely avergage LHWs (who would get pancaked by the likes of Fullmer) and he'll probably get a little strop on and claim that Tarver would've been the best ever if he'd fought in the 1930s.

Seriously, his tune is boring and what more do you expect when i'm answering a wum? You even said it yourself that he's probably on the windup.

I am questioning the alledged greatness of SRR at MW you numpty. What tune is it cox? You really need to grow some minerals or at least grow up.

"Anyone that loses to Turpin, Carmen, Fulmer and a list of decent MW is not all that great."

Not all that great.....

It's not my fault you can't write a coherent sentence that makes explicit sense regarding the point you're trying to make.

Numpti.

Deffo ESN. What weight was that? Must everything be spelt out for some? I'm actually surprised you're not still spoon fed,

You neglected to say "all that great at middleweight"

As it is it reads that you're saying he's not all that great for losing to Turpin and co.

And no, it's not myself and others fault that we interpret your comment one way because you're too simple to make an explicit statement that can't be misconstrued so easily.

by Rowley Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:28 pm

P.S. my last comment was a joke and was meant to be taken as such, no red pen needed.

by **oxring** Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:28 pm

rowley wrote:P.S. my last comment was a joke and was meant to be taken as such, no red pen needed.

Don't worry jeff, I got that Wink

by **Fists of Fury** Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:29 pm

The way it was put did make it look like azania was dismissing SRR as the #1 ATG altogether. However, now we are told that this isn't the case, let us move on and discuss whatever needs discussing without anything personal being thrown in. The next one from the point of me pressing send won't be without consequence.

by coxy0001 Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:29 pm

azania wrote:
oxring wrote:Did I sound like I was making a joke?

Cut the bickering, move on. Last warning.

Oxy old bean. No problem from me, but I dont turn the other cheek especially when the bickering was started by someone.

Having just said you're surprised i'm still not being spoon fed.....

And that Rowley is a right nuisance so i know what you're saying

by azania Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:35 pm

rowley wrote:It's known as English Azania, once I finish teaching you about the old timers I'll teach you it, so we could both be waiting some time for that to happen.

I'll do a deal. Write in normal english and I'll teach you Xhosa or Afrikaans. Preferably now the latter or I may kill you afterwards.

by Rowley Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:39 pm

Erudite is normal English, is just indicative of the stunning breadth of my vocabulary.

by azania Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:40 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:The way it was put did make it look like azania was dismissing SRR as the #1 ATG altogether. However, now we are told that this isn't the case, let us move on and discuss whatever needs discussing without anything personal being thrown in. The next one from the point of me pressing send won't be without consequence.

I dont see how you came to that conclusion on a thread about MWs. Nevermind. Moreover why cant his ATG status as No 1 be questioned. Many have Ali or Armstrong as their #1. Plus a WW RJJ may have the beating of him. Thats another thread anyway.

by AlexHuckerby Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:46 pm

A WW RJJ... Just leave...

by **Fists of Fury** Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:47 pm

I really have heard it all now...

by AlexHuckerby Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:48 pm

A LW Mike Tyson might have taken a Roberto Duran you know!!

by **oxring** Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:55 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:A LW Mike Tyson might have taken a Roberto Duran you know!!

Nah. Duran's jab was just too good. Tyson @ LW might have had the beating of Mosley though. Decent head movement and the ability to pressure him and fight him on the inside.

But imagine what damage Lennox Lewis would have done at LW! That height and reach!

by AlexHuckerby Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:57 pm

You've sold me Oxy, I'm now changing my view, Lennox Lewis is potentially the best LW to have ever lived, it all makes so much sense now...

by **oxring** Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:03 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:You've sold me Oxy, I'm now changing my view, Lennox Lewis is potentially the best LW to have ever lived, it all makes so much sense now...

Wait till I tell you about Lennox as a flyweight. Stunning defence - his opponents need a stool just to punch him in the head.

Going back to the topic at hand -

RJJ was phenomenal in his heyday - sure. Blinding speed, brilliant power and a reflex built defence.

However - do people not feel that at MW - his record is a little lacking? Only 2 top level fights at the weight? Neither of them epic wins?

We should be discussing this at a catchweight - for sure. At 160, its not much of a contest. Roy was green at 160, Sugar a veteran. Sugar had enough gas in the tank to last the distance as well - and was a bit too savvy to "do a Toney" in training for a fight.

by AlexHuckerby Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:14 pm

I think it's legitimate to think that a young Roy Jones may have enough to take an older slightly past it version of SRR who was not at his optimum weight, albeit perhaps Roy didn't have the ring exerience at that moment in time, I do just get a feeling the natural talent would have been enough to take SRR, albeit on a tough decision.

by manos de piedra Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:18 pm

oxring wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:You've sold me Oxy, I'm now changing my view, Lennox Lewis is potentially the best LW to have ever lived, it all makes so much sense now...

Wait till I tell you about Lennox as a flyweight. Stunning defence - his opponents need a stool just to punch him in the head.

Going back to the topic at hand -

RJJ was phenomenal in his heyday - sure. Blinding speed, brilliant power and a reflex built defence.

However - do people not feel that at MW - his record is a little lacking? Only 2 top level fights at the weight? Neither of them epic wins?

We should be discussing this at a catchweight - for sure. At 160, its not much of a contest. Roy was green at 160, Sugar a veteran. Sugar had enough gas in the tank to last the distance as well - and was a bit too savvy to "do a Toney" in training for a fight.

I think we read too much into records or lack thereof for hypothetical match ups sometimes. The reason Jones didnt have a great MW record was more down to him just not spending enough time there as much as anything else. His performances in and around those weight classes at that time I think should remove doubts. As long as he wasnt struggling to make weight there shouldnt be a problem.

To me its a bit like saying De la Hoya's, Mosely or Paquiaos LWW record is lacking and writing them down in a hypothetical LWW match up on that basis. We can safetly assume they would have been effective there but they simply didnt spend much time there because there were bigger fights elsewhere. I dont think Mosely ever fought at LWW for instance, but would you make Hatton a favourite over him simply because he has a better record at that weight?

by **Fists of Fury** Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:34 pm

Definitely a good way of looking at it, Manos.

by AlexHuckerby Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:36 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
oxring wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:You've sold me Oxy, I'm now changing my view, Lennox Lewis is potentially the best LW to have ever lived, it all makes so much sense now...

Wait till I tell you about Lennox as a flyweight. Stunning defence - his opponents need a stool just to punch him in the head.

Going back to the topic at hand -

RJJ was phenomenal in his heyday - sure. Blinding speed, brilliant power and a reflex built defence.

However - do people not feel that at MW - his record is a little lacking? Only 2 top level fights at the weight? Neither of them epic wins?

We should be discussing this at a catchweight - for sure. At 160, its not much of a contest. Roy was green at 160, Sugar a veteran. Sugar had enough gas in the tank to last the distance as well - and was a bit too savvy to "do a Toney" in training for a fight.

I think we read too much into records or lack thereof for hypothetical match ups sometimes. The reason Jones didnt have a great MW record was more down to him just not spending enough time there as much as anything else. His performances in and around those weight classes at that time I think should remove doubts. As long as he wasnt struggling to make weight there shouldnt be a problem.

To me its a bit like saying De la Hoya's, Mosely or Paquiaos LWW record is lacking and writing them down in a hypothetical LWW match up on that basis. We can safetly assume they would have been effective there but they simply didnt spend much time there because there were bigger fights elsewhere. I dont think Mosely ever fought at LWW for instance, but would you make Hatton a favourite over him simply because he has a better record at that weight?

Yes I often get the impression sometimes the head to heads are decided on who achieved what at what weight rather than looking more into the styles rather than A fighter beat B fighter so C fighter has no chance against A fighter.

by John Bloody Wayne Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:47 pm

Roy's lack of experience is what makes me think he loses to Ray. He has the edge in overall athleticism, although Robinson probably has heavier hands and a much sturdier chin.

Robinson had how many fights by the time he was a middleweight? Was there any style he hadn't seen and beaten? I simply don't see Roy having the needed knowledge not to get caught by Robinson at some point, and definitely not enough experience to know what to do once he's caught. It's a Robinson KO for me.

by **oxring** Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:51 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
oxring wrote:
AlexHuckerby wrote:You've sold me Oxy, I'm now changing my view, Lennox Lewis is potentially the best LW to have ever lived, it all makes so much sense now...

Wait till I tell you about Lennox as a flyweight. Stunning defence - his opponents need a stool just to punch him in the head.

Going back to the topic at hand -

RJJ was phenomenal in his heyday - sure. Blinding speed, brilliant power and a reflex built defence.

However - do people not feel that at MW - his record is a little lacking? Only 2 top level fights at the weight? Neither of them epic wins?

We should be discussing this at a catchweight - for sure. At 160, its not much of a contest. Roy was green at 160, Sugar a veteran. Sugar had enough gas in the tank to last the distance as well - and was a bit too savvy to "do a Toney" in training for a fight.

I think we read too much into records or lack thereof for hypothetical match ups sometimes. The reason Jones didnt have a great MW record was more down to him just not spending enough time there as much as anything else. His performances in and around those weight classes at that time I think should remove doubts. As long as he wasnt struggling to make weight there shouldnt be a problem.

To me its a bit like saying De la Hoya's, Mosely or Paquiaos LWW record is lacking and writing them down in a hypothetical LWW match up on that basis. We can safetly assume they would have been effective there but they simply didnt spend much time there because there were bigger fights elsewhere. I dont think Mosely ever fought at LWW for instance, but would you make Hatton a favourite over him simply because he has a better record at that weight?

I'd love to pretend I was using your patented boxrec method to test it...

For me, its not about who he fought or who he beat, but rather - how long he spent at the weight. He was weighing in at 165 before he got his shot at B-Hop for the IBF MW crown. He had already won a Pan am (something similar) title at 168 before he won his 160lb title. After the B-hop win and before he beat Tate - he had something like 3 fights, again at super middle. Straight after defending against Tate - he was off up amongst the SMWs again.

My point is highlighted in bold above - as long as he wasn't struggling to make weight there shouldn't be a problem. In my opinion - his flirtations with the 168lb division started before Hopkins and continued throughout his MW reign - he was never a proper MW - he could boil down to make the weight if he tried to boil very hard indeed. A bit like Maccarinelli's situation at CW. Turns out, he could have always made 175 - but as you pointed out, why bother when there's a CW title to win? For Roy - there were money fights at 168 and more importantly, he was naturally closer to 168 than he ever was to 160. Why stay at a weight you have to fight hard to make when there's more money at your natural weight above?

So I don't get the impression that Roy was ever a proper 160lb fighter - and as such would be more comfortable debating this at a catchweight of 165 - where Roy's abilities are more unquestionable.

Over 15 rounds - I can't pick Roy more than 2/3 times out of 10.

by AlexHuckerby Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:56 pm

For me put simply, his performances at 160 are enough to tell me he was fine there.

by **oxring** Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:58 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:For me put simply, his performances at 160 are enough to tell me he was fine there.

We're going to have to merge this with Trussman's debate if we're not careful.

A close and dull war with Hopkins? 2 round demolition of Thomas Tate? Those performances are enough to tell you he was fine enough to compete with Sugar Ray? When fighting someone of that class, it is my opinion that you wouldn't want anything else going against you. Like a particularly gruelling effort to make the weight.

by manos de piedra Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:09 pm

If we take it that Jones is struggling to make MW then naturally thats going to have a big bearing on the outcome. But if we can assume that this is a Jones who can make the weight without difficulty then I would lean towards him. He probably couldnt have made MW for his whole career of course, but in or around the time he beat Hopkins I dont think he was struggling too badly with it. I think it was the fight with Toney that tempted him up as much as not being able to make middleweight.

by Imperial Ghosty Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:01 am

People say that Robinson didn't face any stylists at middleweight but his welterweight career becomes vital in my theory that he struggled against Turpin, Fullmer and Basilio not just because of the weight and his age. Aaron Wade for instance was a top level fighter with bags of ability whom was easily dispatched by Robinson at Middleweight while the men he struggled most with at Welterweight were tough swarming fighters like Basora who didn't give him room to breathe. There's enough evidence in not just those fights but overall to suggest to me it was a style problem not a weight problem Robinson had at middleweight.

Jones has the speed advantage over Robinson but I don't see any other area even at middleweight where he has the edge, i'd in fact be very interested to see how Jones would have fared against similar opposition.

by horizontalhero Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:22 am

Jones might have also had a slight edge in power imo. For me Robinson was at his best at ww and Jones at SMW or LHW, but for the purpose of this exercise I assume that isn't at the point of having to struggle to make the weight. I'd lean toward Jones on a close decision- I believe that Robbo would have taken him pretty seriously, -more so than say he did Turpin, but Jones speed, reflexes abd athleticism see him through- he was pretty hard fighter to figure out- threw plenty of hard shots from weird angles and was damn hard to nail, so i think it would take Ray sometime to figure him out, and by that time too many rounds would be in the bag.

by compelling and rich Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:06 am

any fantasy fight is usually prime for prime so this is very difficult as you have picked two fighters at a weight where they were not at their prime. would still back robinson at his prime at middleweight though even though his record wasnt the best later on in his career

by azania Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:12 pm

P4P I reckon RJJ would have the beating of SRR more often than not.

by **oxring** Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:38 pm

azania wrote:P4P I reckon RJJ would have the beating of SRR more often than not.

Well this is worthy of discussion.

Let me check your meaning - you think p4p - in a fantasy matchup with all inequalities equalised - reach, height, weight proportionally the same - you think RJJ beats Sugar Ray?

He fought quicker men than Roy Az at Welter Az and dispatched them with ease. We don't know if he fought anyone as unorthodox I grant you - but there isn't any evidence to suggest that Roy struggled with unorthodox styles. Zivic, Armstrong, Gavilan, Olson, Bell - they all presented different fighting styles and Robinson beat them all.

In a p4p equalised match - I still can't pick Roy more than 3 times out of 10. There's a reason why the term p4p was coined for Sugar.

by azania Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:21 pm

oxring wrote:
azania wrote:P4P I reckon RJJ would have the beating of SRR more often than not.

Well this is worthy of discussion.

Let me check your meaning - you think p4p - in a fantasy matchup with all inequalities equalised - reach, height, weight proportionally the same - you think RJJ beats Sugar Ray?

He fought quicker men than Roy Az at Welter Az and dispatched them with ease. We don't know if he fought anyone as unorthodox I grant you - but there isn't any evidence to suggest that Roy struggled with unorthodox styles. Zivic, Armstrong, Gavilan, Olson, Bell - they all presented different fighting styles and Robinson beat them all.

In a p4p equalised match - I still can't pick Roy more than 3 times out of 10. There's a reason why the term p4p was coined for Sugar.

Yep. Ceterus parabus.

Quicker than RJJ? Debateable imo. Enev if he had, he had never fought anyone as unorthodox as RJJ with his speed. Armstrong was coming to the end of his career and was a LW at best. Gavilan was a terrific win. But RJJ is an entirely different kettle of fish. His speed, punch power, ridiculous angles thrown with accuracy and powerful force/ Wonderful combination also.

I'm with Mike McCallum on this one when he said there has never been a more skilled boxer ever to lace the gloves.

by **oxring** Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:48 pm

Hmm. http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=463

You're definitely going against received wisdom here.

Thing with Roy is - if we're going to change our perception of Sugar's best wins - we have to do the same for Roy. I don't really rate Toney as a fighter - but he's Roy's best win.

Did Roy ever fight someone as skilled as Sugar? No. As has been pointed out before - Sugar would find Roy's chin at points - and Sugar could punch with the best of them. Could Roy's chin withstand it?

Sugar was elusive. Could Roy catch him? Its easy to say that Roy was incredibly fast - he was - but lets remember that most of his opponents weren't known for being phenomenally quick. Easy to look quick when the guys in front of you are plodders.

Roy was able to get away without setting people up with the jab and leading with hooks. Would he get away with that against Sugar? I doubt it.

The RJJ that struggled badly in the first fight with the no-great-shakes Montell Griffin doesn't do anything to threaten Sugar Ray - ceterus parabus.

by azania Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:14 pm

oxring wrote:Hmm. http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=463

You're definitely going against received wisdom here.
Thing with Roy is - if we're going to change our perception of Sugar's best wins - we have to do the same for Roy. I don't really rate Toney as a fighter - but he's Roy's best win.

Did Roy ever fight someone as skilled as Sugar? No. As has been pointed out before - Sugar would find Roy's chin at points - and Sugar could punch with the best of them. Could Roy's chin withstand it?

Sugar was elusive. Could Roy catch him? Its easy to say that Roy was incredibly fast - he was - but lets remember that most of his opponents weren't known for being phenomenally quick. Easy to look quick when the guys in front of you are plodders.

Roy was able to get away without setting people up with the jab and leading with hooks. Would he get away with that against Sugar? I doubt it.

The RJJ that struggled badly in the first fight with the no-great-shakes Montell Griffin doesn't do anything to threaten Sugar Ray - ceterus parabus.

So what's new? SRR has the greater legacy so he is rightfully the #1. But this is not about legacy or who they fought. But in terms of skill and who would win is a hypethetical match up.

For me RJJ had the greater speed and variety of punches. The big question mark is his chin. Much has been made of his chin after being stretched by Tarver and that he was hardly ever touched in his pomp.

Of course its easy to look quick when you have dross in front of you. But they weren't all dross until RJJ made them look like dross. He was that good. Made the best around look ordinary. McCallum was no slouch. Past his best of course, but for him to give such high praise is something to listen to. He doesn;t give praise lightly.

Sorry, but Griffin did not give him problems. It was a near shut out intil the DQ (which is that was a DQ so should Rocky have been DQ'd when he clocked Walcott Very Happy

) <---couldn't resist.

RJJ may have negated the jab, but I didn't see LaMotta having difficulty without a jab, or Olson, Basillio. Turpin had much success with his jab.

I see RJJ using his speed and employing a jab to win a UD 7 out of 10 times.

by **oxring** Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:32 pm

Haven't got time to disagree with all your posts - but:

RJJ-Griffin wasn't a shutout. It was 75-76, 77-75 and 76-75 at the time of the stoppage. Griffin did well early with Roy coming into the fight later.

I wouldn't have DQd RJJ either - but I'm a massive RJJ fan.

No way sugar struggles with Griffin for me.

by azania Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:37 pm

oxring wrote:Haven't got time to disagree with all your posts - but:

RJJ-Griffin wasn't a shutout. It was 75-76, 77-75 and 76-75 at the time of the stoppage. Griffin did well early with Roy coming into the fight later.

I wouldn't have DQd RJJ either - but I'm a massive RJJ fan.

No way sugar struggles with Griffin for me.

I had RJJ streets ahead. But I'll give you that and add that no way does RJJ struggle with Olson, Basillio or LaMotta. Styles etc. But in the rematch, Jones put the record straight.

by Imperial Ghosty Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:14 am

Robinson never particularly struggled with Olson and if we're using Basilio and LaMotta against Robinson then we must also use Tarver and Johnson against Jones, I for one know who I would rate as the better two fighters. All well and good saying Jones beats the pair but he didn't face anyone who fought with such disregard to their healths, both would keep coming and coming and coming for all 15 rounds without taking a backward step, Robinson could never stop them in their tracks so I doubt Jones would either.

A direct comparison between the two pound for pound well there isn't one really, it's Sugar Ray all day every day.

by The genius of PBF Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:46 am

Robinson vs Jones at middleweight...Fascinating match up...On the fence for this though I favour Robinson slightly.

I think that Robinson would be able to get inside...Wouldn't back off and be confused by Jones showboating.

He would fight Jones on the inside moving side to side, countering with hooks and uppercuts from the sides aswell.

Although Jones has faster handspeed than Robinson...Robinson more than fast enough and technical enough to give Jones problems...whilst Jones's speed and reflexes are superb.

Robinson has the better skillset and the superior boxer.

Robinson would give him problems if he forced the fight which I think 100% he would...He might get stunned with them super sharp punches a few times but Robinson would not be hanging around.

Robinson would have to be weary of Jones's body punches...Robinson on a close points decision over 12 rounds. 15 round fight - Robinson by TKO round 14.

I think that it would of been a great fight.

by captain carrantuohil Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:12 am

Just like to say that PBF draws an excellent and highly credible picture of a possible match-up between Jones and Robinson.

I do believe that the great equaliser might be Robinson's sometimes underestimated punching power. Agree that Jones is faster than any opponent he has faced, but SRR is technically at least his equal; Jones cannot afford to take the liberties that he did with lesser foes.

With the decline in Roy's reflexes came the realisation that he was slightly vulnerable around the whiskers, and few middleweights were better qualified than Robinson to profit from this. Great fight, but I agree that a late Robinson stoppage (in a 15-rounder) would be the percentage call.

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