"You got what you wanted to see"

Did we?

We all love boxing and recognise its dangers. No-one wants to see another boxer injured in the manner of Michael Watson or Gerald MacLellan. But deep down we love the savage fights where both guys to to the well, the pits of their soul, continue fighting until they can give no more and end up on their shield. We get excited. Out hearts pounding in an almost primevil manner.

I was at the Eubank/Watson fight at White Hart Lane. I'd known Michael for a few years prior to the fight. I'd known him since the NABC days when he won the London division if memory serves me right. We've spared together, partied together, been to too many of his fights to remember. But I will never forget that nightwhen he lost and eventually won a bigger fight. I wanted blood. I had a blood-lust. That fight gave me that craving. The fight was savage. Both guys went into the deep end and beyong in terms of human bravery and will to win.

I remember seeing Michael lying there with his head cradled on the canvass. I thought he was just exhausted. I said good-bye to his mother Joan and his uncle Joe as there were too many people at ringside and mentioned that I'd see them later. I kissed good-bye to Mike's then girlfriend and asked her to give a hug to their daughters for me.

I got into a friend's car, feeling deflated but extremely proud of Michael. Talking endlessely about the fight and how brutal it was. I have to admit we all got the fight we wanted. But did we get the ending we wanted? A brave young man went out on his shield.

When we reach near home we heard on the radio that Michael was rushed to Barts with a serious brain injury. I felt totally deflated. The sport I loved was about to take another life. This time the life of a close friend of mine.

As the days went by I couldn't watch another boxing fight. It took me over a year before I could watch another fight. I totally lost interest in boxing.

Did the crowd and watching public get what they wanted to see? In gladiatorial times, people fought to the death if the emperor wanted it. The crowd wanted to see the final kill. Deep down, do we want that? Is there a primevil trait in humans that have such blood-lust that we will scream in excitement as two guys punch the life out of each other. Boxing. Showbusiness with blood. How much blood do we want.

When a boxer takes a knee we call him a quitter. What more do we want?

Nigel Benn said that "You (the public) got what you wanted to see". How correct was he?

Great article, and poses a hard question to answer honestly- while i love watching an artful boxer like Whitaker or Mayweather, i also love a tear up, and was out of my chair cheering when Eubabnk landed that punch. No I didn't want Michael to suffer the injury he did- of course I didn't, but by watching and cheering I certainly expected and wanted him to take that risk, however slim, that he could get hurt. I justify this to myself by arguing that as an ex boxer myself (though only a pretty poor amateur one) I had accepted the risk, and understood what it means to get in the ring and get hit for the entertainment of others, and therefore it was ok to watch others do it for my enterainment. it 's not a very convining arguement, and if I'm honest I don't think that boxing is really defendable at all- that to ask young men to pay the price that Michael paid is acceptable-even if they accepted it themselves, but It doesn't stop me loving boxing. Hypocritical? yes, certainly. But Benn was in essence correct- if you pay to watch boxing there is allways arisk that you are going to be paying for a man to be seriously injured, and to try and hide from that, or to deny that is cowardly.

Very good article and thought provoking. It is the fights that show the boxers with heart we love to see, even though we appreciate the skills that others bring. You can understand why people ask the question if the price to the individual is too high as entertainment for the rest of us and, though it causes spirited debate, such questions must continue to be asked.

Very interesting read Azania. It's difficult isn't it, because Benn is right, we got what we wanted an action packed all out war, two men showing all the heart in the world, that is what we wanted to see.

However we didn't want to see any repurcussions, we didn't want to see anyone hurt for life and if you did then that's a sick individual. We got what we wanted but paid a heavy price for it.

I think it's quite simple. We, the fans, want to see wars, it is in our nature and it is what makes the sport exciting.

However, nobody wants to see someone permanently maimed, damaged or killed. That is beyond the responsibility of the fans, though. We want to see that war, but it is then up to the officials and the cornermen to know when it needs to be stopped.

So yes we did get what we wanted to see, however the cornermen (and possibly referee to a smaller extent) got it completely wrong which led to further damage. We wanted a war and we got one, so the fans don't have to feel guilty about anything, given that it isn't us that is responsible for the fighters welfare.

Fantastic article.

It seems to me that we boxing fans, ( along with many fans of other extreme pursuits, ) are facing the same dilemma as, for example, a smoker. We know the risks involved, ( even though, in the case of boxing, we ourselves are not the ones shouldering those risks, ) and everything is fine and dandy until one of those risks comes home to roost.

I believe that azania has also highlighted the fact that, where there is a connection between ourselves and a victim of the sport we love, we will feel the horrors more keenly. Sadly, that seems to be part of human nature, and there probably isn't much we can do about it. From my own experience, I recall with great sadness the death of Johnny Owen, and this would highlight azania's point.

By the time Owen fought Lupe Pintor in 1980 I had been a boxing fan for many a year already, and was aware of the Benny Paret tragedy and others which had occurred during those years. Naturally, each one of those tragedies had saddened me but, perhaps to my shame, none of them had ever hit me so deeply and for so long as would the death of Owen.

The reason was a simple one.

A newspaper had run an in depth feature dedicated to Owen, spread over several issues, in the build up to the fight. It told the tale of a simple, unassuming, humble young man who wanted only to buy his mum and dad a house with the proceeds of the Pintor fight. Johnny Owen came into our homes as ' one of us ' and an entire nation, or so it seems, came to know him almost on a personal level. I, for one, had never heard of him until the newspaper features, but by the day of the fight I felt as though he had been a long time friend. Moreover, it was clear that countless others felt the same about him and had been touched by his humility. Colleagues at work who erstwhile had shown no interest in boxing were talking about him and rooting for him and it seemed to me that not since Cooper's second fight with Ali had a British fighter so captivated the nation.

In the aftermath of the fight it seemed that everybody I met was talking about Owen and praying he would pull through. Then, one morning, I arrived at work and a colleague, ( and non boxing fan, ) looked across at me and, without saying ' good morning ' simply said ' Johnny Owen died. ' Over thirty years on I remember that moment as though it had been frozen on film. The shock went down to my legs - yes, I know it sounds silly and over dramatic, but it's true - and I couldn't speak a word. It was as though a family member had passed. Owen's death prompted in me, for the first time, to consider whether or not I really should be such a fan of boxing, and it took quite a while before I could again raise any enthusiasm for the sport.

All these years later, I am still a hopeless boxing addict even though the horror of Owen's death still haunts me from time to time. Does all this mean that I am a hypocrite? Very possibly it does, and I can't say I'm altogether comfortable with the idea. However, we are what we are, human nature is complicated, and I truly believe that there is something inherent and primal about the sport of boxing which leaves us very little choice in the matter.

I suppose the reality for me is that I do ' get what I wanted ' from boxing most of the time but that every so often it brings me something which prompts me to question whether it is morally right to want it in the first place.

Excellent post, Windy, and a far more intricate view of the matter than my own. However, hopefully mine makes sense in its simplest form.

Good article Az, although I have never known anyone who has suffered personally, like yourself I have been ringside when someone has suffered a near fatal injury (Paul Ingle) and it is tough to have to confront what can be the unfortunate reality of the sport we love. Remember watching the Benn Mclellan fight like it was only yesterday and seems odd to say it was one of the most exciting fights I have ever seen when one considers the outcome, but suspect we would all be lying if we said otherwise.

Benn is right to a degree, we all love a fight of such drama and thrills and spills but it is the eternal contradiction of the sport, we all love to see big punchers and KO's but as Alex says no fan wants to see any fighter hurt.

Was a bit young to have been a fan of Owen at the time Windy but read some time ago the Big If by Rick Broadbent about the Owen tragedy and, whilst one always has to guard against the natural desire to deify anyone who suffers tragedy in the ring in the case of Owen it does seem clear the sport lost a good un in Johnny, have also read biographies of guys like Magri who were contemporaries of Owen and am yet to see anyone with a bad word to say about Johnny or his family. The dignity his family have shown in dealing with the tragedy is truly humbling.

Fists of Fury wrote:Excellent post, Windy, and a far more intricate view of the matter than my own. However, hopefully mine makes sense in its simplest form.

Thank you, Fists, but the plaudits belong to az, and your comment made perfect sense to me.

rowley wrote:Was a bit young to have been a fan of Owen at the time Windy but read some time ago the Big If by Rick Broadbent about the Owen tragedy and, whilst one always has to guard against the natural desire to deify anyone who suffers tragedy in the ring in the case of Owen it does seem clear the sport lost a good un in Johnny, have also read biographies of guys like Magri who were contemporaries of Owen and am yet to see anyone with a bad word to say about Johnny or his family. The dignity his family have shown in dealing with the tragedy is truly humbling.

As I say, jeff, I didn't know him from Adam until the newspaper coverage.

He really did seem to be a lovely fella, though ; natural, unassuming and humble. Your comments regarding his family and their dignity would only serve to confirm that view.

Boxing is a dangerous sport. Sometimes we get carried away and want fighters to fight to the end or they get called "quitters". That is another way of calling them cowards, lets be frank about it. I have seen many here refer to Cotto as a quitter/coward because he took a knee after literally going to the well against Marg (ignore the loaded gloves issue). Many have called Ortiz a quitter with some saying that he quit like a dog on this board. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone because to my shame I have called Vit a quitter also.

With what happened to Mike and Gerald, Owen, Peret and so many others, how any of us can refer to a professional boxer to decides for whatever reason to stop mid fight a coward is beyond me. Yes we get caught up in the excitement especially if its a blood and guys fight. We know the repercussions and what can happen in boxing, yet we boo them when they decide that enough is enough. I believe that deep down we want to see a KO. A fighter go out on their shield so to speak. The more brutal, the more savage the better. Our blood lust will then be almost quenched. We know the effects and what can happen when a boxer receives a sustained beating with blows to the head, yet we call them quitters or cowards and claim some quit like a dog to protect their looks.

Benn was correct. We got exactly what we wanted in every possible way. On reflection and after the fight we claim that we didn't. But during the fight we simply dont care what happens to them as long as we are excited.

Great article.

I think the most compelling case for boxing is that even the injured boxers would do the same if given another chance, and are to an extent grateful for what boxing has done for them. The highs it gave them. It has changed so many lives for the better in cultures another sport couldn’t reach. That said, I don’t like to see anyone downplay the case against boxing, and would like to think every boxing fan has wrestled with the morality of it at one point.

I've spokem to Mike many times about it and his response hasn't changed one iota. Given another chance he woul dlace them up and do it all over again. Boxers are aware of the risks involved. I for for one dont blame them for seeking the highest purse and fight for money as opposed to legacy. Legay dont pay bills or cure brain damage.

I've spokem to Mike many times about it and his response hasn't changed one iota. Given another chance he woul dlace them up and do it all over again. Boxers are aware of the risks involved. I for for one dont blame them for seeking the highest purse and fight for money as opposed to legacy. Legacy dont pay bills or cure brain damage.

"I've spoken to Mike many times about it and his response hasn't changed one iota. Given another chance he would lace them up and do it all over again. Boxers are aware of the risks involved. I for for one dont blame them for seeking the highest purse and fighting for money as opposed to legacy. Legacy doesn't pay bills or cure brain damage"

That's what you were looking for.

Was a good documentary which made some very valid points which has indeed been followed by some excellent posts here this morning.

The point id like to touch on though is that i dont think enough thought is given to the guys at the other end of the ring to thier tragic counterpart. The part of the documentary where Nigel sees Gerald in the wheelchair at the dinner is very moving. Nigel is cut to pieces and i know Eubank was the same regarding the Watson incident.

These guys have to live with what happened for the rest of their lives. I know all fighters step through those ropes knowing something bad could happen but nothing can possibly prepare them for when it does. Boxing is a sport full of respect and to know that they gave one of thier fellow professionals brain damage and other serious injury's will kill these guys inside and i dont think enough is made of that.

In most cases the fighters in question have to continue fighting aswell which must be incredibly hard as it going to play on thier minds and effect there mindset. To see Nigel's fights after the Mcclellan tragedy really brings this home. He lost 3 out of his last 4 fights post Gman and was never the same fighter. Chris Eubank was similar as he became more gun shy after the Watson tragedy and im sure some of the more knowlegable guys on here will point out more cases of this in past-era's.

So in short obviously the guys who end up tragically injured come off worse and deserve all the support they get from various boxing foundations and fans alike but i think its very important that we dont forget just what catastrophic effect the fight has on the fighter who landed the punches which played a part in the injury.

Well put, Haito. The mention of Benn's suicidal tendencies and general coming off the rails post that incident really brought it home the effect it'd had on him.

Haito wrote:
In most cases the fighters in question have to continue fighting aswell which must be incredibly hard as it going to play on thier minds and effect there mindset. To see Nigel's fights after the Mcclellan tragedy really brings this home. He lost 3 out of his last 4 fights post Gman and was never the same fighter. Chris Eubank was similar as he became more gun shy after the Watson tragedy and im sure some of the more knowlegable guys on here will point out more cases of this in past-era's.

.

Good point about how this affects the other guys, whilst it would be insensitive to compare the suffering of Chris or Nigel to Watson or Gman they suffer in their own way, particularly when they have to hear idiots like Mclellan's trainer suggesting Benn was juicing with no evidence to support their claims must only pile on the hurt. And to show how smart I am apparently Ezzard Charles also became somewhat gunshy after a similar tragedy.

Good thread Az and a very good post Windy that sums up most of my feeling on the matter.

One thing that the wife said last night on this made me think. She mentioned that the boxers are aware that they put themselves on the line in every fight, this is true.

It also made me think however that they are prepared for the damage being done to themselves but don't pay any thought to the other guy. They may well be prepared to die in the ring but I don't think they are ready to kill there.

I have changed with age and at the time of the Benn fight I would have been screaming at the telly for Benn to kill him. Now I am a little different.

Back then I loved a slugger that could hurt people, now I prefer a skilled technician that doen't get hit.

When a fighter I'm watching is in a bad way - even if I want the other to win I'll be willing the ref to stop it.

There are parts of boxing I hate yet it is the parts of boxing I love that keep me coming back.

One of my points is quite simple. What do we expect from boxers?

It's completely opinionated Az, in my opinion boxers should go as far as they feel they can go, say Cotto for example, went as far as he felt he could in the first fight with Margarito. However, the fact that he quit, because he did give up in the end, he should have to suffer the backlash as possibly undeserving as it is. There will always be understanding folk and there will always be guys that want to tear someone apart, sadly there are far fewer understanding people about.

All I expect is that a boxer gives his all, however you could then move into not just having a physical limitation what about a mental limitation in terms of perhaps not being able to get yourself up for the fight, or not having the right mentality for a big fight... It's tough really.

Adding on from that I actually think my view isn't quite a whole view, and I have certain expectations that differ from fighter to fighter as unfair as that may be.

Great article Azania.

My views on the matter are in keeping with the majority of posters. When a boxer steps into the ring I think its a case of "it'll never happen to me". They know the risks involved but they don't think theyl ever have to deal with it or the aftermath on a personal level. Boxing by nature is the art of hitting and not getting hit. The winner will inflict more damage than the loser usually and boxers will do whatever they can to achieve this. They are prepared to go to the ends of the earth at times but they just don't and can't prepare themselves for a true tragedy like a death or serious injury. Doing that to a fellow professional would have serious psychological implications and effects a mans life as well as his career.

We as fans want to see the wars of fights and we don't consider the worst case scenario. Thankfully cases like Watson, Owen and mc Lellan are few and far between and I think that's part of the reason why so many can just look at it as a freak accident that won't happen again and delude ourselves that its not going t happen again rather than accept the fact that its a distinct possibilty in every fight. Hope this makes sense as I'm just typing it out very quickly. Apologies oif its unclear as to my meaning.

Great article Azania.

My views on the matter are in keeping with the majority of posters. When a boxer steps into the ring I think its a case of "it'll never happen to me". They know the risks involved but they don't think theyl ever have to deal with it or the aftermath on a personal level. Boxing by nature is the art of hitting and not getting hit. The winner will inflict more damage than the loser usually and boxers will do whatever they can to achieve this. They are prepared to go to the ends of the earth at times but they just don't and can't prepare themselves for a true tragedy like a death or serious injury. Doing that to a fellow professional would have serious psychological implications and effects a mans life as well as his career.

We as fans want to see the wars of fights and we don't consider the worst case scenario. Thankfully cases like Watson, Owen and mc Lellan are few and far between and I think that's part of the reason why so many can just look at it as a freak accident that won't happen again and delude ourselves that its not going t happen again rather than accept the fact that its a distinct possibilty in every fight. Hope this makes sense as I'm just typing it out very quickly. Apologies oif its unclear as to my meaning.

Great article Azania.

My views on the matter are in keeping with the majority of posters. When a boxer steps into the ring I think its a case of "it'll never happen to me". They know the risks involved but they don't think theyl ever have to deal with it or the aftermath on a personal level. Boxing by nature is the art of hitting and not getting hit. The winner will inflict more damage than the loser usually and boxers will do whatever they can to achieve this. They are prepared to go to the ends of the earth at times but they just don't and can't prepare themselves for a true tragedy like a death or serious injury. Doing that to a fellow professional would have serious psychological implications and effects a mans life as well as his career.

We as fans want to see the wars of fights and we don't consider the worst case scenario. Thankfully cases like Watson, Owen and mc Lellan are few and far between and I think that's part of the reason why so many can just look at it as a freak accident that won't happen again and delude ourselves that its not going t happen again rather than accept the fact that its a distinct possibilty in every fight. Hope this makes sense as I'm just typing it out very quickly. Apologies oif its unclear as to my meaning.

Opinionated arent you

It was unclear until I read through the third time

AlexHuckerby wrote:It was unclear until I read through the third time

You would've thought by the third time he'd managed to spell McClellan properly....

It may be hit and not get hit, but the quickest way to end a fight is to render your opponent unconscious. Fans want to see guys beat themselves to a pulp before rendering one unconscious. The better you are at seperating your opponent from his senses, the more fans will want to see you and the more you get paid. That's why Tyson became very popular. He tapped into our primevil instincts. He became the embodiment of what people expect from the World's HW Champion.

That to be honest is true and is one of the reasons that Evander Holyfield wasn't very popular when he first became Heavyweight Champ, people didn't like the fact that he didn't seem to have one punch knockout power and it took the incredible (Think it was tenth) round in which Holyfield got rocked by Bowe and came raring back for people to actually change there tune about him at the time.

alma wrote:All true, although I think a fighter's charisma has a lot to do with their popularity also, Ali being a prime example. Never as murderous a fighter as Tyson, but every bit as popular

True. But many went to see Ali fight to see him get beat. Many or most go to see Tyson fight to see a KO and a brutal one at that.

Personally I find it very simular to F1. The one bit every loves to watch is the start of a Grand Prix which most of the time is where the accidents happen (at low speed mind). We dont enjoy it for danger. We enjoy it for the excitment. Same as people who do parachuting and Bungee Jumping etc. My brother infact is a skiing fanatic and knows lot of people who have broken their legs and ankles but it has never put him off

My bad. Kept saying it hadn't send so obviously the phones lying to me now. McClellan. Got it right in the end? You've got me all paranoid thinking this message is gonna send 3 times haha.

It's a superb article Azania..one of the best I've read on here and in knowing Michael Watson you certainly are privileged...

1. I think the wars with Mccallum, Benn and Eubank 1 all attributed...

2. I certainly enjoy watching a good vicious ko or a toe to toe slugfest more than say a lesson by Michael Nunn..I think we all have the beast in us who like Boxing...hence Hagler-Hearns being top of a lot of lists....

Certainly makes you feel ashamed sometimes watching a battering and enjoying it....... when you consider yourself to be caring and have humanity at least 99% of the time..

3. Although i don't get on to well with my eldest the thought of him fighting in a contest and hurting or being hurt would fill me with horror..

Sometimes forget these guys are human beings with families of their own...

Boxing can bring out the worst in all of us....Certainly my Wife gave up watching fights with me because of my behaviour when I had an interest...

It's alright saying these guys know the risks but in fairness it's the families who's lives change just as much as the fallen Boxer..like a pebble in a pond!! (the ripples fall out wide..)

It's a very thought-provoking article......and nice to see one from you...at last!!

I don't think there are many sadder and more frightening sights in sport than seeing a fighter collapsing and having to receive medical treatment. I think it brings on a sense of guilt that you just don't get when, for excample, you see a footballer being stretchered off with a broken leg. I guess it comes down to the fact that ulitmately you are watching the fight to watch two men hurt each other. When one of them is badly injured and needs medical attention it brings home the brutality of the sport.

On Saturday I watched the Benn v McLellan fight for the first time since I saw it live. I think my memory had made it more brutal that it was but it is still very tough to watch it knowing the outcome and seeing the signs of McLellan's brain damage long before he took a knee. Knowing what i know now, I found the accidental head butt particularly distressing.

Absolutely agree with this stateent:

Certainly makes you feel ashamed sometimes watching a battering and enjoying it....... when you consider yourself to be caring and have humanity at least 99% of the time..

I love Ali. My favourite boxer of all time. I've seen his fights with Williams which I believe is almost poetry in motion. But give me his slugfest with Frazier anyday in Manilla. Give me Hagler v Hearns but for goodness sake let it go at least 10 rounds. The more brutal the better.

As Aaron Pryor's manager said when she was told be was blind in one eye. "He has another eye". Frazier was blind in one eye, near blind in another. He wanted to go on. And we would have loved for him to continue. Those extra minutes would have given us more of our money's worth.

Boxers should be given more respect. Even the so called bums whose job it is to ship punishment from prospects and dont complain.

Last night watching the Benn McClellan documentary all I felt was sadness looking at Gerald McClellan and his family.
Its easy to say in hindsight but listening to Manny Steward,Brendan Ingle and Barry McGuigan it was like a catalogue of errors.
1. Sacking Manny Steward before the fight who believes he could have prevented the tragedy was a huge mistake.
2. Ingle(as the bucket man) stating it was obvious from the start the corner didn't have a clue what they were doing.
3. How can McGuigan at ringside see McClellan blinking repeatedly and know somethings wrong and not 5 ringside doctors surely they should have known something wasn't right.
4.McClellan blinking in training before the fight maybe someone with Manny Stewards experience may have asked why are you blinking all the time during training what's wrong.
We will never know whether any of this would have saved Gerald McClellan from the life his having to lead now but I personally think it just might have done.

Nico

I thought it was a bit rich of Manny to say that had he been in the corner G-Man would be ok today or the incident would not have happened. This is the same man who cornered Hearns well into his 40s. Also there were ringside doctors who saw nothing wrong.

His blinking could have been a habit. Who knows. Brain injuries are hard to spot at the best of times. Its like the Watson fight. In hindsight Tibbs shouldn't have allowed Watson out in the 12th. But the will to win is strong. Listen to the boos when the ref stopped it.

I cant blame anyone for what happened to G-Man. Its part and parcel of boxing.

He didn't corner Hearns well into his 40's......

Hearns left Steward well before the Virgil Hill fight...A fight and a win against a great light heavy..

Check your facts please..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He didn't corner Hearns well into his 40's......

Hearns left Steward well before the Virgil Hill fight...A fight and a win against a great light heavy..

Check your facts please..

Didn't he corner hearns after that fight? I recall hearns wearing the yellow shorts in one of his last fights.

Think he took Prentiss byrd or someone with a name like that from the Kronk gym to be his trainer..

Steward left before Hill.....or he left Steward..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think he took Prentiss byrd or someone with a name like that from the Kronk gym to be his trainer..

Steward left before Hill.....or he left Steward..

I stand corrected and retract the comment above about Manny. But the point remains that head injuries are hard to diagnose until its often too late.

Afrikaan......very good!!

Good to know a little of different languages.....but hey...

je n'ai pas toujours raison mais de n'ai jamais tort.....will always describe me..

Of course not Truss. When are Americans ever wrong