Best UK & Irish player of the last 11 years?

Who has been the best UK & Irish player during the last 11 years?

I'm guessing its a WUM

not quite stag,

Its a very poor WUM

If you look at the positions of the players in the list I would say it's pretty accurate.

westernosprey wrote:If you look at the positions of the players in the list I would say it's pretty accurate.

Lets speak plainly. England win the Rugby World Cup and a few Grand Slams and surprise surprise there are no Englishment in the team.

You've fooled us all.

very subtle

Out of that list only BOD and possibly Ickle have been at the top of their game consistently over last 11 years.

If you remember back to 05 Jenkins wasn't even first choice for Wales and it was only injury to Duncan Jones that allowed him his chance which he took with both hands.

You are missing some pretty big names there mate...

Add those and this thread might be worthwhile reading

maestegmafia wrote:You are missing some pretty big names there mate...

George North and Chris Ashton?

Martyn Williams.

Agree with bedfordwelsh. Only BOD and ickle Shane are worthy.

At best an incomplete list ...

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:At best an incomplete list ...

+1 Out of that list only BOD and Shane Williams would be in contention. Some WUMS are good but this one is C- must do better.

No, no. no. You all have it wrong. The OP is aimed to ensure that BOD is voted in. So not a WUM, consider it Stalker FanFic.

When I read down the list I was conviced this was a WUM - then I saw the right answer at the bottom.

beshocked wrote:Martyn Williams.

Agree with bedfordwelsh. Only BOD and ickle Shane are worthy.

You could argue for Stephen Jones belonging in there on merrit of his two Lions tours and starting most of the Lions test matches.

Stephen Jones and Martyn Williams - most overrated international players ever? Both part of a Welsh side that got regularly humped during the 90s and early 2000s.

roddersm wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:You are missing some pretty big names there mate...

George North and Chris Ashton?

I'm guessing it's the guy that was voted player of the decade.

I know 11 is greater than 10, but it's close enough.

To answer the original question, I'd say it's between Richard hill and BOD

Clearly a desparate WUM attempt. Everyone knows Andy Farrell was the best Union player in the UK.

More seriously, if you were doing this seriously and not just going for a WUM, who should be included?

Clearly BOD and Shane would be there or thereabouts. I'd also make a case for Gethin Jenkins being considered.

Other Irish guys? O'Connell, David Wallace. Not sure ROG would quite make the cut.

England: Vickery, Johnson, Hill, Dayglo, Wilkinson, Robinson.

BOD would probably still be a worthy winner overall, but at least you'd be asking the right question (MJ and Hill lose out because they only played for a short period of ths 11 years quoted, Wilkinson because of his huge drop in form after 03).

What about Gavin Henson or Danny Cipriani?

I'd still give it to Wilkinson, his kick won the WC in 03 and it was his reappearance in the group stages in 07 which coincided with England turning their fortunes around (note that England have the best record of any nation over the last three WCs - ie last 11 years). How much of this is down to Wilko himself we don't know, but there's no doubt England would not have got to the final without him IMO.

BOD a close second, followed by Shane Williams.

beshocked wrote:Stephen Jones and Martyn Williams - most overrated international players ever? Both part of a Welsh side that got regularly humped during the 90s and early 2000s.

Mods - I've been looking at the emoticons and see that we have quite a few new ones (love the drool one !). Can't find one for "ignorant tw*t" though - can you please add?

dummy_half wrote:More seriously, if you were doing this seriously and not just going for a WUM, who should be included?

My Shortlist:

- Shane Williams

- Jason Robinson

- Brian O'Driscoll

- Will Greenwood

- Jonny Wilkinson

- Paul O'Connell

- Martin Johnson

- Richard Hill

Bloomin eck this took off quickly!

Stag - that's a good list. I still think BOD stands out with Hill a close second.

Ok heres a one...

Where would Patterson fit in? He's been the main man for Scotland for so long....

For me it has to be Brian O'Driscoll. However despite his achievements with Leinster and Ireland, I think he will be bitterly disapointed to have not been involved with a winning Lions tour and a better showing in their RWC tours.

Honourable mentions to Richard Hill and Shane Williams.

offload now now. No need to be upset. I am entitled to an opinion just like you are. I have never rated either that highly. Certainly when two English players completely overshadow them both in quality - Wilkinson and Hill.

I think Adam Jones,Shane Williams,BOD and Gethin Jenkins are excellent players.

Martyn Williams and Stephen Jones? Pretty good players but never going to go down as all time greats!

I like red stag's list.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok heres a one...

Where would Patterson fit in? He's been the main man for Scotland for so long....

Well - he might do well if its a list of goal kickers

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok heres a one...

Where would Patterson fit in? He's been the main man for Scotland for so long....

A fantastic player and one of Scotlands best ever utility players. However he has been involved in a Scotland side that is utterly gash and has also been a victim of his own versatility.

The stats speak for themselves though :

Games 109
Tries 22
Started 96
Conversion 90
Penalty Goals 170
Drop Goals 3
Points 809

Patterson is a player who was/is very good but has never had the recognition he deserves.

However as I said there have been players in the UK & Ireland who have achieved more, and would be more worthy of the title in the OP.

beshocked wrote:offload now now. No need to be upset. I am entitled to an opinion just like you are. I have never rated either that highly. Certainly when two English players completely overshadow them both in quality - Wilkinson and Hill.

I think Adam Jones,Shane Williams,BOD and Gethin Jenkins are excellent players.

Martyn Williams and Stephen Jones? Pretty good players but never going to go down as all time greats!

I like red stag's list.

OK I was a bit quick off the mark. Hill is one of my all time favourites so no argument there. However MW and SJ might not be all time greats but they were hardly overrated. Very good international players and not just because they played too often in average test teams.

Apologies too offload. Overrated is the wrong word. They are very good players but it's hard to rate them as the OP would suggest certainly when comparing to their contemporaries like Hill and Wilkinson. Also you warm more to your countries' players. I am sure as a Welshman you appreciate your players more than someone outside Wales would.

Surely Will GreenWood should be on that list.

Jamie Nooooooooooooooooon!

Its a wind up - 5 Welshmen out 6 .

Sorry even they most blinkered man in Red can't believe that

If the question was "Best UK & Irish player 11 years ago" I think Wilkinson would stand a chance but I think "over the last 11 years" hasn't he been injured for 10 of them? Can't really recall what he looks like....

offload wrote:If the question was "Best UK & Irish player 11 years ago" I think Wilkinson would stand a chance but I think "over the last 11 years" hasn't he been injured for 10 of them? Can't really recall what he looks like....

bit harsh as
1) he's only really been injured for 8 of the last 11 years (up until 03 he was fine)
2) he's still found time between injuries to play in two WC finals, which is two more than anyone on the OP's shortlist played in

If you are to include HC exploits, then ROG's performances for Munster nudge him up into the list to go with a grand slam winning drop goal, etc. I wouldn't argue for him to be the winner, but definitely worthy of consideration and to be on the shortlist.

BOD
Richard Hill
Wilkinson
Shane Williams
Greenwood
David Wallace

I struggle to compare past and present players but by positions, the names that I tend to compare current players to as the true elite benchmark are;
Hookers - Thompson would be to the fore
Props - Euan Murray, Adam Jones, Jenkins, Vickery
Second row - MJ, POC
Backrow - Richard Hill, David Wallace, Dayglo, M Williams
Scrumhalf - Dawson, Philips, Blair, Stringer
Outhalf - Wilkinson, ROG, Stephen Jones
Centres - BOD, Greenwood, Roberts
Wings - Shane Williams, Shaggy (a purely Leinster choice)
Fullback - Jason Robinson, Lewsey, Paterson

Offload
Harsh - WIlko's only been crock for 7.5 years in the last 11...

I did consider putting Greenwood in my list, but thought I was already over-doing it with English players (I put Larry Dayglo in instead because he played for more of the 11 year period being considered, although I would reckon Greenwood was the better player.

Martyn William has been a very fine international player for Wales for ages, but falls just a bit below world class when considered against his contemporaries. Stephen Jones I would rate a level below that - good professional player and a persectly sound international, but without that X factor that makes him stand out.

Patterson is an intersting on - imagine how good a career he'd have had if the coaches had ever been able to identify his best position? Problem is that he's never been a great straight-on tackler (although is a good cover defender), so has never played at 12, where his other attributes would best fit (in a 2nd 5/8th type role (Mike Catt-esque).

I think you have to look at players and say who has redefined the position they play in. On that basis for me:

Front Row - Keith Wood
Second Row - Martin Johnson
Back row - Richard Hill
Half Back - Johnny Wilkinson
Centre - Brian O'Driscoll
Wing - Shane Williams
Fall Back - Jason Robinson


If I have to pick one it simply has to be BOD

If this is based on someone playing for most of the 11 years then....

...God I actually feel dirty saying this but....

Dayglo.

RWC winner, grand slams winner, premiership titles etc, HEC cup winner and played for most of the 11 years in question.

I think I need to go and wash now.

If this is based on the greatest player IN the last 11 years....

Martin Johnson

RWC winning Captain,
Winning Lions Captain,
a couple of grand slams,
numerous premiership titles,
2 back to back HEC titles,
but only played for about half of the 11 years in question.

Has any player achieved what he has in the last 11 years?

Metal Tiger how do you define best? From your two selections it looks like you have picked two players have achieved the most in 11 years.Does achieving the most make them the best? Probably

All about definition.

Metal Tiger wrote:
If this is based on the greatest player IN the last 11 years....

Martin Johnson

RWC winning Captain,
Winning Lions Captain,
a couple of grand slams,
numerous premiership titles,
2 back to back HEC titles,
but only played for about half of the 11 years in question.

Has any player achieved what he has in the last 11 years?

Beep beep, sorry Metal Tiger I'm going to have to pull you up on this one!

The Lions victory was in 1997 so doesn't count.

Johnson won 1 GS(2003) within the allocated timeframe.

We can allow the RWC, back to back HEC's and 2 Prem titles but lets not embellish the mans career here!

Backs always seem to win best ever awards, but without us piano carriers they are nothing. NOTHING I TELL YOU!

Best player for me would be O'Driscoll.

One of the best and most successful would probably be Dayglo (not the best England player though in my opinion). In the last 11 years:

1 WC title and an additional final
3 6N titles
2 HC titles
4 domestic titles
1 Amlin
1 Anglo-Welsh
2 Lions tours
Highest ever scoring England forward

Brian O'Driscoll was Shane Williams and Martin Johnson rolled into one. That's why he's the best.

LondonTiger wrote:Backs always seem to win best ever awards, but without us piano carriers they are nothing. NOTHING I TELL YOU!

LondonTiger, I have a little book of rugby quotes. You might like this one from Australia's Peter Fitzsimons

Rugby backs can be identified because they generally have clean jerseys and identifiable partings in their hair... Come the revolution the backs will be the first to be lined up against the wall and shot for living parasitically off the work of others.

Not taking the original list seriously but there have been some good lists.

Even as an Irishman i have some great admiration for Patterson, horribly under rated because of a woeful Scottish team. Another that falls into that category is Jason White. He has still got some of the bigest hits i have seen in rugby, class player also done in by playing for a poor Scottish side.

OK the list looks ridiculous but if you talk about erformances over the last 11 years how many EDnlglish players deserve to be near it? Sure we havd some that were arguably better than any of those 11-8 years ago...but for the last 8 those have either been retired or mostly useless,....Wilko being a prime example.

Shane and BOD have been at or near the top of the European player lists for most of the last 11 years, you cant say that about any individual English player.