Irish provinces and their player costs

by Chunky Norwich Thu 01 May 2014, 2:46 pm

Interesting reading this:

Gerry Thornley, 29 April 2014 “That there is likely to be more money for players is overdue and the Irish provinces have a proven culture, sense of identity and loyalty, as well as competitiveness, which their fellow Celts would covet. They’ve defied the odds before.”

On 3 March 2014, Andy Howell, rugby correspondent of the Western Mail, supposedly Wales’ No.1 rugby journalist, claimed that the Leinster Rugby team had a budget of £4.1m, including its academy players. In the quote above, the archetypal Irish rugby journalist, Gerry Thornley, implies that Irish players stay with their provinces due to loyalty, not money. That would be true if Howell’s budget was correct.

But is Howell correct? What did he do to verify the figure given to him, presumably by Leinster.

The first thing is to layout the structure of Irish Rugby at professional level. It is entirely controlled by the Union. The IRFU own the professional teams. Munster, Ulster, Leinster & Connacht Rugby are all entities it seems who are owned 100% by the IRFU. It is those entities that operate the relevant provincial sides. There are limited companies set up that protect those names, but they are dormant. Those businesses appear to be ‘branches’ of the IRFU.

Reason for arriving at those conclusions? The IRFU accounts. These account for the competition monies for those sides, but unlike the WRU, the outgoings do not go to the four teams, but appear to be spent on players wages (of which more later).

Alongside the rugby sides there, provinces also have Branches that are owned, it seems, by their constituent clubs. The accounts of the branches are not made publically available, but are commented on in the press following AGM report. I have also had a copy of the Leinster Branch Accounts sent to me, which help enormously to understand how professional rugby in Ireland works, and crucially how much money they spend on player wages.

In terms of income, the IRFU appear to account for all the competition monies the 4 provinces get. This totals approximately €11m. The other income of the IRFU appears to derive out of the international game only. Then in schedule 3 to the accounts we are told that player and management costs come to €28.5m. This excludes academy players and coaching support staff (such as U20 coach Mike Ruddock) as they appear to be included in the costs laid out in schedule 4.

So the wage bill for pro players in Ireland is €28.5m, less say €1m for the senior side coaching team.

At the moment in Wales, RRW are asking for £10m between the 4 sides. The four Irish provinces, in 2013 (with similar figures for previous years) received approximately €16.5m over and above competition income. This does give the IRFU MORE control than RRW appear to be happy with, but it does indicate the funding difference.

The remainder of the income for the branch accounts that I have seen for Leinster, states that all other income such as provincial income and ticket monies go through the branch accounts. The Leinster turnover, even without competition monies remember, is over €12m. This is in excess of the top welsh pro team, where competition monies are included.

So if the IRFU pay the players, where does this money go? Well, it seems that the Leinster branch also pay the players (senior ones) to the tune of €2.7m. The coaching staff expense is elsewhere in the accounts.

So, if we stay with Leinster at the moment, if we say the split of the €27.5m between the four provinces is that Connacht get half the other 3. That means that Leinster get the wages of 2/7ths of €27.5m. This is approximately €7.85m. Add in the €2.7m, and you get €10.55m. Or £8.75m. Or more than double the RRW salary cap, and significantly more than the PRL clubs.

I even think it is above the French salary cap.

#foodforthought’ndy

Conclusions:

1- The Irish provincial sides are not overperforming. They are performing on par with their funding. Maybe even below it.

2- Where the Irish are performing is income generation. The Munster branch turnover is apparently more like €17m.

3- RRW demands for £10m do not seem unreasonable.

4- RRW need to improve their income streams. The WRU should be helping them with this, not hindering them. Part of this would be to empower regions to build relationships with clubs. In Ireland, the branches award significant grants as well as the Union.

5- To make it clear, the Lenister playing wage bill is obviously not £4.1m, Andy. According to official audited accounts.

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

by Chunky Norwich Thu 01 May 2014, 3:02 pm

Interesting read this:

Gerry Thornley, 29 April 2014 “That there is likely to be more money for players is overdue and the Irish provinces have a proven culture, sense of identity and loyalty, as well as competitiveness, which their fellow Celts would covet. They’ve defied the odds before.”

On 3 March 2014, Andy Howell, rugby correspondent of the Western Mail, supposedly Wales’ No.1 rugby journalist, claimed that the Leinster Rugby team had a budget of £4.1m, including its academy players. In the quote above, the archetypal Irish rugby journalist, Gerry Thornley, implies that Irish players stay with their provinces due to loyalty, not money. That would be true if Howell’s budget was correct.

But is Howell correct? What did he do to verify the figure given to him, presumably by Leinster.

The first thing is to layout the structure of Irish Rugby at professional level. It is entirely controlled by the Union. The IRFU own the professional teams. Munster, Ulster, Leinster & Connacht Rugby are all entities it seems who are owned 100% by the IRFU. It is those entities that operate the relevant provincial sides. There are limited companies set up that protect those names, but they are dormant. Those businesses appear to be ‘branches’ of the IRFU.

Reason for arriving at those conclusions? The IRFU accounts. These account for the competition monies for those sides, but unlike the WRU, the outgoings do not go to the four teams, but appear to be spent on players wages (of which more later).

Alongside the rugby sides there, provinces also have Branches that are owned, it seems, by their constituent clubs. The accounts of the branches are not made publically available, but are commented on in the press following AGM report. I have also had a copy of the Leinster Branch Accounts sent to me, which help enormously to understand how professional rugby in Ireland works, and crucially how much money they spend on player wages.

In terms of income, the IRFU appear to account for all the competition monies the 4 provinces get. This totals approximately €11m. The other income of the IRFU appears to derive out of the international game only. Then in schedule 3 to the accounts we are told that player and management costs come to €28.5m. This excludes academy players and coaching support staff (such as U20 coach Mike Ruddock) as they appear to be included in the costs laid out in schedule 4.

So the wage bill for pro players in Ireland is €28.5m, less say €1m for the senior side coaching team.

At the moment in Wales, RRW are asking for £10m between the 4 sides. The four Irish provinces, in 2013 (with similar figures for previous years) received approximately €16.5m over and above competition income. This does give the IRFU MORE control than RRW appear to be happy with, but it does indicate the funding difference.

The remainder of the income for the branch accounts that I have seen for Leinster, states that all other income such as provincial income and ticket monies go through the branch accounts. The Leinster turnover, even without competition monies remember, is over €12m. This is in excess of the top welsh pro team, where competition monies are included.

So if the IRFU pay the players, where does this money go? Well, it seems that the Leinster branch also pay the players (senior ones) to the tune of €2.7m. The coaching staff expense is elsewhere in the accounts.

So, if we stay with Leinster at the moment, if we say the split of the €27.5m between the four provinces is that Connacht get half the other 3. That means that Leinster get the wages of 2/7ths of €27.5m. This is approximately €7.85m. Add in the €2.7m, and you get €10.55m. Or £8.75m. Or more than double the RRW salary cap, and significantly more than the PRL clubs.

I even think it is above the French salary cap.

#foodforthought’ndy

Conclusions:

1- The Irish provincial sides are not overperforming. They are performing on par with their funding. Maybe even below it.

2- Where the Irish are performing is income generation. The Munster branch turnover is apparently more like €17m.

3- RRW demands for £10m do not seem unreasonable.

4- RRW need to improve their income streams. The WRU should be helping them with this, not hindering them. Part of this would be to empower regions to build relationships with clubs. In Ireland, the branches award significant grants as well as the Union.

5- To make it clear, the Lenister playing wage bill is obviously not £4.1m, Andy. According to official audited accounts.

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 01 May 2014, 3:16 pm

Don't know if those figures are correct or not as there is a fair bit of guesswork in there.

But. They are the kind of synergies you can generate when all the provinces are under the control of the Union.

It's not for everyone, and there are downsides, like not having our players in the provinces as much as we'd like, and having to be occasionally told by HQ what positions to play them etc. but the upsides are pretty decent.

I would love to wave a magic wand over Welsh Rugby and make all parties want to row in the same direction but I don't have a magic wand.

Not saying that it should be controlled by the Union in Wales, different strokes etc. but if they could all just work for the good of Welsh rugby at all levels that would be enough.

Teams would all get stronger and it would improve the Celtic League.

by GunsGerms Thu 01 May 2014, 3:21 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

Surely this isnt a very reliable source?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 01 May 2014, 3:22 pm

Having looked through the IRFU accounts http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_ANNUAL_REPORT_20122013.pdf I must point one thing out - the 27.5m euros as player wages mentioned is not just handed to the Provinces to pay as wages. A large chunk will be payments to international players for playing for Ireland - and as such is not counted as part of salary Caps in England or France.

Are leinsters players paid more than 4.1m Euro for representing Leinster - it certainly looks like that. however it will be some way below the 10.55m Euro the author comes up with.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 01 May 2014, 3:23 pm

BTW. 4.1 Mil on players is credible when you factor in Central contracts.

Jamie Heaslip........2017
Gordon D'Arcy........2014
Bod........2014
Mike Ross........2015
Rob Kearney........2015
Cian Healy........2016
Sean O'Brien.......2016

That's a fair bit of Wonga right there

by lostinwales Thu 01 May 2014, 3:26 pm

So it may be that the 4.1m is the budget but doesnt include players on central contracts. So many different ways of reading the numbers

by **LondonTiger** Thu 01 May 2014, 3:33 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:BTW. 4.1 Mil on players is credible when you factor in Central contracts.

Jamie Heaslip........2017
Gordon D'Arcy........2014
Bod........2014
Mike Ross........2015
Rob Kearney........2015
Cian Healy........2016
Sean O'Brien.......2016

That's a fair bit of Wonga right there

As I said I suspect that the Leinster players are paid a fair bit more than 4.1m purely for representing Leinster - just a lot less than the amount quoted in th earticle.

by quinsforever Thu 01 May 2014, 3:45 pm

those irish players are all mercenaries. they only stay in ireland for the big bucks, Smile

by **profitius** Thu 01 May 2014, 3:48 pm

I'm sure the money Leinster gets does not just pay for the players. That has to go to support the game all around Leinster and that possibly includes things like womens rugby etc. They also have to rent out the RDS.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 01 May 2014, 3:50 pm

What I was saying was that those players don't come out of Leinster's budget, so 4.1 Mil would probably cover the rest of the squad and academy handy enough.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 01 May 2014, 3:53 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:What I was saying was that those players don't come out of Leinster's budget, so 4.1 Mil would probably cover the rest of the squad and academy handy enough.

Indeed we are not disagreeing.

the point is the Western Mail journalist who suggests you can run a team like Leinster on a 4.1m wage bill is perhaps in error.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 01 May 2014, 3:56 pm

profitius wrote:I'm sure the money Leinster gets does not just pay for the players. That has to go to support the game all around Leinster and that possibly includes things like womens rugby etc. They also have to rent out the RDS.

No. these figures are covered by the "branch".

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 01 May 2014, 3:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:What I was saying was that those players don't come out of Leinster's budget, so 4.1 Mil would probably cover the rest of the squad and academy handy enough.

Indeed we are not disagreeing.

the point is the Western Mail journalist who suggests you can run a team like Leinster on a 4.1m wage bill is perhaps in error.

Fo sho!
The 6 I listed wouldn't be a kick in the boll1x away from half that on their own

by **LondonTiger** Thu 01 May 2014, 3:58 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:What I was saying was that those players don't come out of Leinster's budget, so 4.1 Mil would probably cover the rest of the squad and academy handy enough.

Indeed we are not disagreeing.

the point is the Western Mail journalist who suggests you can run a team like Leinster on a 4.1m wage bill is perhaps in error.
Fo sho!
The 6 I listed wouldn't be a kick in the boll1x away from half that on their own

You named 7 Very Happy

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 01 May 2014, 3:59 pm

Not to mention the tax breaks

by **Notch** Thu 01 May 2014, 4:00 pm

I really, really hope RRW do improve their revenue streams and the WRU do help them to the point the Welsh sides are every bit as well resourced as the provinces. That can only be a good thing for Irish Rugby. The thing with the Pro12 is the better the other three nations are, the better your own nation will be. The level of competition going up in the Pro12 would be a massive, massive boon for Ireland. I don't have much opposition that the game in Wales will improve short term. Both the Union and the Regions seem really clueless.

When it comes to sums I'm not sure I'd trust anyone on Gwlad... sometimes I go over there and read it for a laugh. It's not exactly populated by the winners of the genetic lottery, put it like that!

by Mickado Thu 01 May 2014, 4:00 pm

It's an interesting piece of digging, there are no references listed in the article so I'll reserve judgement on his accuracy, but the conclusions drawn are a bit fallacious.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 01 May 2014, 4:09 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:What I was saying was that those players don't come out of Leinster's budget, so 4.1 Mil would probably cover the rest of the squad and academy handy enough.

Indeed we are not disagreeing.

the point is the Western Mail journalist who suggests you can run a team like Leinster on a 4.1m wage bill is perhaps in error.
Fo sho!
The 6 I listed wouldn't be a kick in the boll1x away from half that on their own

You named 7

indeed. makes the kick in the boll1x even smaller.....

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 01 May 2014, 4:11 pm

Mickado wrote:It's an interesting piece of digging, there are no references listed in the article so I'll reserve judgement on his accuracy, but the conclusions drawn are a bit fallacious.

Who's been drawing felatios? It's not big and it's not clever!

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 01 May 2014, 4:19 pm

Digging not dogging, Jen.

Although

Mickado wrote:It's an interesting piece of digging, there are no references listed in the article so I'll reserve judgement on his accuracy, but the conclusions drawn are a bit fallacious.

How can you be certain they are fallacious?
A fact can't be dismissed as a fallacy without some sort of evidence one way or t'other.

[ed] Well not in the real world.
Except in Ireland where other T&Cs apply...

by Sin é Thu 01 May 2014, 5:22 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Having looked through the IRFU accounts http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_ANNUAL_REPORT_20122013.pdf I must point one thing out - the 27.5m euros as player wages mentioned is not just handed to the Provinces to pay as wages. A large chunk will be payments to international players for playing for Ireland - and as such is not counted as part of salary Caps in England or France.

Are leinsters players paid more than 4.1m Euro for representing Leinster - it certainly looks like that. however it will be some way below the 10.55m Euro the author comes up with.

Spot on. He is also incorrect in his assertion that Munster Rugby's turnover is 17m - it was 14.5m last year (bear in mind that Munster Rugby has two training bases and 2 stadia for starters and have just redeveloped one, all of which would put a hole in anyone's finances.

I think he has also excluded the Provincial coaching, S&T & admin costs in the Provinces (i.e., x 4 lots) who are also employees of the IRFU in the professional game. Last season, Munster's Scrum Coach was let go because of cut-backs. Bear in mind that the Provinces don't spare the cash on their coaching staff either - i.e., Connacht have a former Super Rugby coach at the helm.

Also, Connacht are probably getting more than the other provinces now. Their problem is that they don't have the support base that the others have to supplement their income.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 01 May 2014, 6:54 pm

Sin é wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Having looked through the IRFU accounts http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_ANNUAL_REPORT_20122013.pdf I must point one thing out - the 27.5m euros as player wages mentioned is not just handed to the Provinces to pay as wages. A large chunk will be payments to international players for playing for Ireland - and as such is not counted as part of salary Caps in England or France.

Are leinsters players paid more than 4.1m Euro for representing Leinster - it certainly looks like that. however it will be some way below the 10.55m Euro the author comes up with.

Spot on. He is also incorrect in his assertion that Munster Rugby's turnover is 17m - it was 14.5m last year (bear in mind that Munster Rugby has two training bases and 2 stadia for starters and have just redeveloped one, all of which would put a hole in anyone's finances.

I think he has also excluded the Provincial coaching, S&T & admin costs in the Provinces (i.e., x 4 lots) who are also employees of the IRFU in the professional game. Last season, Munster's Scrum Coach was let go because of cut-backs. Bear in mind that the Provinces don't spare the cash on their coaching staff either - i.e., Connacht have a former Super Rugby coach at the helm.

Also, Connacht are probably getting more than the other provinces now. Their problem is that they don't have the support base that the others have to supplement their income.

Careful now. You might be justifying unfavourably balanced set-ups elsewhere.

p.s. Why do the Irish prefer ASM over Toulon?

A question I've often put, but never had a reply.

by HammerofThunor Thu 01 May 2014, 6:58 pm

He was looking at the money that is recorded as paying for player fees. The running costs, coaching, etc comes out elsewhere...apparently.

To be honest it seems like the guy is looking at two different things and pretending they're the same.

I'll be back

Edit: I'm back.

The 2013 WRU annual report has the WRU giving the regions £16.9M. This doesn't include international player wages that come under "Direct costs" listed as £13.7M. There was a decrease in player wages of £3M due to there not being a World Cup. So for the previous financial year there were: 4 games pre World Cup, 4 pool games, QF, SF, playoff, post World Cup game and 5 6 nations games = 17 games

That year there were: 4 games during the summer, 4 in the AI and 5 in the 6 nations, so 13.
I make that £3M reduction for 4 less games so £0.75M per game. Normal season has 12 games, so £9M over a year. So really we have the €28M he quoted being more like the £25.9M

Not sure where I went wrong but I'm sure I did somewhere.

by Sin é Thu 01 May 2014, 7:06 pm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Having looked through the IRFU accounts http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_ANNUAL_REPORT_20122013.pdf I must point one thing out - the 27.5m euros as player wages mentioned is not just handed to the Provinces to pay as wages. A large chunk will be payments to international players for playing for Ireland - and as such is not counted as part of salary Caps in England or France.

Are leinsters players paid more than 4.1m Euro for representing Leinster - it certainly looks like that. however it will be some way below the 10.55m Euro the author comes up with.

Spot on. He is also incorrect in his assertion that Munster Rugby's turnover is 17m - it was 14.5m last year (bear in mind that Munster Rugby has two training bases and 2 stadia for starters and have just redeveloped one, all of which would put a hole in anyone's finances.

I think he has also excluded the Provincial coaching, S&T & admin costs in the Provinces (i.e., x 4 lots) who are also employees of the IRFU in the professional game. Last season, Munster's Scrum Coach was let go because of cut-backs. Bear in mind that the Provinces don't spare the cash on their coaching staff either - i.e., Connacht have a former Super Rugby coach at the helm.

Also, Connacht are probably getting more than the other provinces now. Their problem is that they don't have the support base that the others have to supplement their income.

Careful now. You might be justifying unfavourably balanced set-ups elsewhere.

p.s. Why do the Irish prefer ASM over Toulon?

A question I've often put, but never had a reply.

At least ASM don't recruit world class players to sit on the bench. Also, Toulon's owner/chairman is a complete spacer. I think their fans are very passionate and apart from Delon Armitage, their players are very likeable and work hard.

by **Notch** Thu 01 May 2014, 7:24 pm

I love Toulons Pilou Pilou guy.

No Ideal rugby dinner party would be complete with that guy and the Honey Badger

by Hound of Harrow Thu 01 May 2014, 8:07 pm

The tax exemption that home based Irish players enjoy is a huge part of the 'loyalty' thing. The large salaries on offer in France keeps their players at French clubs.

Still, it's up to other unions to reward their players adequately to keep them in their own country. Whether that is by increasing direct payments from unions to clubs, or by relaxing salary caps, is another issue.

by quinsforever Thu 01 May 2014, 8:19 pm

Will be interesting to see what impact the big new french tv deal AND new LNR rules on JIfF players will have on poaching of irish and welsh players.

The new 12 man average JIFF rule for french teams should mean less foreign players in their league but better paid on average. And players who have retired from intl rugby or made themselves unavailable will continue to be attractive, just like for the AP.

I suspect it means that only the very best will be lured to France, a la Sexton, and they will be paid very well, and paid even better if they don't have international commitments that reduce their top14 game time.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 01 May 2014, 8:29 pm

quinsforever wrote:Will be interesting to see what impact the big new french tv deal AND new LNR rules on JIfF players will have on poaching of irish and welsh players.

The new 12 man average JIFF rule for french teams should mean less foreign players in their league but better paid on average. And players who have retired from intl rugby or made themselves unavailable will continue to be attractive, just like for the AP.

I suspect it means that only the very best will be lured to France, a la Sexton, and they will be paid very well, and paid even better if they don't have international commitments that reduce their top14 game time.

I imagine teams will just ignore the JIFF rules. Neither the salary cap or the JIFF rules seem to affect Toulon at all.

by Hound of Harrow Thu 01 May 2014, 8:51 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Will be interesting to see what impact the big new french tv deal AND new LNR rules on JIfF players will have on poaching of irish and welsh players.

The new 12 man average JIFF rule for french teams should mean less foreign players in their league but better paid on average. And players who have retired from intl rugby or made themselves unavailable will continue to be attractive, just like for the AP.

I suspect it means that only the very best will be lured to France, a la Sexton, and they will be paid very well, and paid even better if they don't have international commitments that reduce their top14 game time.
I imagine teams will just ignore the JIFF rules. Neither the salary cap or the JIFF rules seem to affect Toulon at all.

+1 as far as Toulon are concerned.

There is a lot to be admired in the IRFU way of doing things. Trying to maximise your player resources at club and international level.

It has helped produce a strength in depth in a wider squad sense than they have ever had before. A couple of positions excepted, but even NZ have that issue.

Things are a bit more difficult in a country where clubs carry more clout.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 01 May 2014, 8:56 pm

Hound of Harrow wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Will be interesting to see what impact the big new french tv deal AND new LNR rules on JIfF players will have on poaching of irish and welsh players.

The new 12 man average JIFF rule for french teams should mean less foreign players in their league but better paid on average. And players who have retired from intl rugby or made themselves unavailable will continue to be attractive, just like for the AP.

I suspect it means that only the very best will be lured to France, a la Sexton, and they will be paid very well, and paid even better if they don't have international commitments that reduce their top14 game time.
I imagine teams will just ignore the JIFF rules. Neither the salary cap or the JIFF rules seem to affect Toulon at all.

+1 as far as Toulon are concerned.

There is a lot to be admired in the IRFU way of doing things. Trying to maximise your player resources at club and international level.

It has helped produce a strength in depth in a wider squad sense than they have ever had before. A couple of positions excepted, but even NZ have that issue.

Things are a bit more difficult in a country where clubs carry more clout.

I think when it comes to clubs, the AP has it almost perfect with the salary caps (to allow teams be competitive) and a great balance between foreign and English players. But with the way the French are going, it means the AP has had to act in a way as to not get left behind.

by quinsforever Thu 01 May 2014, 8:58 pm

To be fair hound, the regional setup was always more likely to garner support in a country easily divided into regions (along GAA or other lines so I am led to believe?)

Wales messed it up.

Scotland cut the borders.

And England and France have too many players to simply be divided into regions.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 01 May 2014, 9:02 pm

Plus they had the viable clubs and international teams that could resist the obvious exit doors.

by Hound of Harrow Thu 01 May 2014, 9:22 pm

LF4L - England under Lancaster have realised the benefit of having home based players who are available for squad/training weeks. It might not be enough to develop 35+ players delivering the RWC (way behind Woodward's 2003 squad) but we're going the right way.

quins - I have lots of Irish pals and I can say that sport there is very much 'village v village' 'town v town' and 'County v County'.

I love the hurling - great game to watch, and I'll probably be in one of my local Irish bars to watch the games over the summer.

by **Notch** Thu 01 May 2014, 9:59 pm

quinsforever wrote:To be fair hound, the regional setup was always more likely to garner support in a country easily divided into regions (along GAA or other lines so I am led to believe?)

Hound of Harrow wrote:quins - I have lots of Irish pals and I can say that sport there is very much 'village v village' 'town v town' and 'County v County'.

Gentlemen, the reason the provinces work so well for Ireland is the way club rugby was organised in Ireland. Ireland had no All-Ireland club rugby competition until the 90s- the leagues were organised by the four branches. So the very best players in the Ulster league would be selected to play for the Ulster provincial side etc. With no direct competition between sides from each province other than the inter-provincial games, the fixtures between the four provinces basically became the basis for international selection. The old inter-provincial Championship was held before the Five Nations and they were unofficial Ireland trials. As well as that the provincial sides would normally be selected to play touring international teams and those were the games they'd play every season- they didn't have many fixtures but the ones they had were basically the most prestigious, competitive games in Irish Rugby outside international test matches.

Anyway getting selected for your province was a massive honour and the gateway to international representation, so when the provinces were basically repurposed into professional club sides they already had a lot of prestige and history attached to them. The supporter base was initially small but took off rapidly as there was no bitterness over some clubs being favoured over others to push people away and you already had the history of Munster beating the All Blacks, Ulster beating Australia which were massive moments in history of Irish Rugby.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 01 May 2014, 10:05 pm

Repurposed is it? That's an interesting niblet of Business-Speak (aka utter bollix).

by ME-109 Thu 01 May 2014, 10:14 pm

Notch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:To be fair hound, the regional setup was always more likely to garner support in a country easily divided into regions (along GAA or other lines so I am led to believe?)

Hound of Harrow wrote:quins - I have lots of Irish pals and I can say that sport there is very much 'village v village' 'town v town' and 'County v County'.

Gentlemen, the reason the provinces work so well for Ireland is the way club rugby was organised in Ireland. Ireland had no All-Ireland club rugby competition until the 90s- the leagues were organised by the four branches. So the very best players in the Ulster league would be selected to play for the Ulster provincial side etc. With no direct competition between sides from each province other than the inter-provincial games, the fixtures between the four provinces basically became the basis for international selection. The old inter-provincial Championship was held before the Five Nations and they were basically Ireland trials. As well as that the provincial sides would normally be selected to play touring international teams and those were the games they'd play every season- they didn't have many fixtures but the ones they had were basically the most prestigious, competitive games in Irish Rugby outside international test matches.

Anyway getting selected for your province was a massive honour and the gateway to international representation, so when the provinces were basically repurposed into professional club sides they already had a lot of prestige and history attached to them. The supporter base was initially small but took off rapidly as there was no bitterness over some clubs being favoured over others to push people away and you already had the history of Munster beating the All Blacks, Ulster beating Australia which were massive moments in history of Irish Rugby.

Plagiarism.... Whistle

by ME-109 Thu 01 May 2014, 10:23 pm

RE Portnoys question...

Its rugby snobbery due to the locality thing and our holier than thou attitude (and rightly so)...Toulon are johnny come lately's with loadsamoney and buying success. In Munster we like/respect Toulouse and other traditional clubs (i.e Northampton/Leicester/Gloucester etc - might not like but respect). Sale for example were seen as another jumped up moneyed club (as were Sarries even circa 2000).

ASM ...hmmm no love lost with them and Munster due to the hard games with them back in the day...and again the money bit but also no real respect...

The goys (Leinster) like ASM because of the fact Clermont is a dump with a never ending tyre bonfire so it reminds them of Dublin.

Ulster like nobody...

by Hound of Harrow Thu 01 May 2014, 10:27 pm

Notch - England also had a strong County Championship in the amateur era. From there players went on to the four Divisional sides.

The North, The Midlands, The South West and London and The Souh East.

Out of that came the likely internationals. So we've had a similar situation in England in terms of regional representative honours, but it met its demise with 1) the club (Courage) league in 1987, and 2) professionalism 8 years later.

I saw L&SE play NZ back in the 80s at Twickenham. A huge game at the time.

by ME-109 Thu 01 May 2014, 10:42 pm

The difference is in the organisation though. The Provincial Branches are mini IRFUs subservient to them. The club affiliation, organisation of Rugby in the provinces (club, school, junior etc) and development responsibility. In effect the change to professionalism hasnt made a blind bit of difference to the organisation of the game in Ireland..

by Hound of Harrow Thu 01 May 2014, 10:52 pm

Exactly, Ireland have utilised what they already had in a country where rugby is not the primary sport by a long way.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 01 May 2014, 11:11 pm

Erm. The current English leagues are still based on the Divisions.

From the sub-basement up, it remains theoretically possible for any team to compete in the Jeff.
Not if the PRL were given full sway in carving up the game between themselves as an effective cartel.

But theoretically, technically possible.

There's the team I used to play for
Greene King IPA Eastern Counties 2
Team P W D L F A Diff B Pts Pts Adjust
Thetford 18 16 0 2 635 195 440 11 77 0
Thurston 18 15 0 3 595 225 370 13 73 0
Norwich Medics 18 13 1 4 588 234 354 13 67 0
Hadleigh 18 12 0 6 632 306 326 14 62 0
Mistley 18 9 1 8 442 462 -20 9 47 0
Fakenham 18 8 0 10 385 509 -124 6 38 0
Norwich Union 18 6 0 12 322 361 -39 10 34 0
Haverhill & District 18 5 0 13 291 559 -268 5 25 0
Mildenhall Red Lodge 18 3 0 15 199 694 -495 4 16 0
Felixstowe 18 2 0 16 204 748 -544 5 13 0
Last Updated: Apr 5 2014 5:33PM

And still yet there's hope!

[ed] And note that Norwich Union are still called Norwich Union.
No commercial sell outs to poncy re-branded gits there - unlike other organisations each side of the Irish Sea.

by Guest Thu 01 May 2014, 11:16 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:What I was saying was that those players don't come out of Leinster's budget, so 4.1 Mil would probably cover the rest of the squad and academy handy enough.

Indeed we are not disagreeing.

the point is the Western Mail journalist who suggests you can run a team like Leinster on a 4.1m wage bill is perhaps in error.

Andy Bowell isn't interested in top notch journalism mind

by ME-109 Thu 01 May 2014, 11:20 pm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
From the sub-basement up, it remains theoretically possible for any team to compete in the Jeff.
Not if the PRL were given full sway in carving up the game between themselves as an effective cartel.

But theoretically, technically possible.

And still yet there's hope!

In reality didnt that go out the window years ago. Havent the top clubs in effect had that cartel in place. Dont you remember the old arguments about clubs being promoted from the first division (Championship)..

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 01 May 2014, 11:25 pm

There are Cartels over the place, ME. viz the 6Ns.

Only some cartels are de facto pure market monopolies and worse - some are both monopolies and monopsonies.

by ME-109 Thu 01 May 2014, 11:27 pm

Yeah but its whether they are "ours" or "theirs"....depending on your preferences...

by ME-109 Thu 01 May 2014, 11:32 pm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote: monopsonies.

Now thats a blast from the past..havent heard that term being used since doing my degree (long time ago)...theory of imperfect competition...even more surprised I remembered it.

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 01 May 2014, 11:42 pm

Yup. Monopsony - a single buyer in a market.

Dear old Imperfect Competition and Joan Robinson's brilliance.

by ME-109 Thu 01 May 2014, 11:46 pm

I would certainly be impressed if you knew her (I only mention that given your age profile)

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 01 May 2014, 11:49 pm

Way before my time. But at one point I did try to fill my (6th form) students' heads with her imparted wisdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Joan_Robinson_Ramsey_Muspratt.jpg

Imperfect competition embraces nearly all parts of the rugby market.

wiki wrote:In economic theory, imperfect competition is a type of market structure showing some but not all features of competitive markets.[1]

Forms of imperfect competition include:

Oligopoly, in which there are few sellers of a product.
Monopolistic competition, in which there are many sellers producing highly differentiated products.
Monopsony, where there are many sellers but only one buyer, and oligopsony, where there are many sellers but few buyers.

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