Talent

First topic message reminder :

I've heard quite a few European players say Rory is more talented than Woods with Luke Donald lending his weight to the assertion recently.

Now, being a casual fan of golf, I hold no pretensions to being well schooled in its nuances and intricacies but I was just curious as to how it's quantified.

Golf is a game of great skill with a pretty deep skill-set testing an eclectic range of qualities but I suspect a lot of people lend probably too much credence to swing technique alone as indicative of talent.

Anyway, how would you define and measure talent in golf and do you think Rory is more talented than Tiger?

I'd disagree McIlroy being best driver, the best driver of the ball in world golf for quite sometime now has been Lee Westwood

GWR-Golfer wrote:...Best Driver - Rory (unquestionably)...

Eh? The stats don't bear this out what-so-ever. Rory is currently 68th in driving accuracy on the European Tour. Hardly "the best (unquestionably)" now is it?

his driver also lost him the masters

Just watched an interview with Lukey and I think part of "talent" is an incredible belief that they can be the best. Confidence is such an important factor,whether modest or not. These players have such a steely determination and there isn't a great deal of difference in ability to the play the game between the top players but those successful seem to possess this. S_r described it perfectly in an earlier post.

Diggers wrote:So basically ... you don't watch it. Pretty much says it all really.

I don't have to watch 'the only way is Essex' to know its garbage diggers, x factor also.

Shotrock wrote:From my limited observation of Rory, I think he may be the best driver of golf ball in today's game. He finishes on balance off the tee box just about all the time. Mechanically, he seems to be a freak.

But then there's the intangible "get it done when it absolutely needs to get done". Tiger did a bit of it this past weekend, going birdie, birdie. He sure did it at Torrey Pines, the time he won a major. I think Rory will become this sort of golfer, too.

So what separates these guy? I would expand on what Adam states -- "application of technique and results under pressure".

You ever seen Westwood Drive??

super_realist wrote:

Diggers wrote:So basically ... you don't watch it. Pretty much says it all really.

I don't have to watch 'the only way is Essex' to know its garbage diggers, x factor also.

I don't think you can be 100% sure it is garbage unless you have watched it

Maverick wrote:I'd disagree McIlroy being best driver, the best driver of the ball in world golf for quite sometime now has been Lee Westwood

Ok Mav - your right I was getting caught up in the Race to Dhubai

GWR-Golfer wrote:

Maverick wrote:I'd disagree McIlroy being best driver, the best driver of the ball in world golf for quite sometime now has been Lee Westwood

Ok Mav - your right I was getting caught up in the Race to Dhubai

Also apologies to Number 1 & NBS and everyone else

Tiger has said himself that there are players on tour - John Daly specifically - who have more natural talent than him. He has said that he has to work much harder on his game than others (obviously it paid off).

Talent is very difficult to define...

Are we talking about natural hand/eye co-ordination? The reason why some golfers have such great looking swings, and can effortlessly send the ball miles.

Athletic ability? Not so important in golf compared to many other sports but still relevent.

Vision? The ability to see a shot, read a putt, make the right decision to lay up or go for it. Hugely important in golf, a bit like that Zidane ability to put your foot on the ball in a crowded midfield and play the killer pass.

Temperament? Being able to handle the pressure, and respond to it when it counts. Also the temperament to learn from your mistakes, put in the hours of practice, lead the right lifestyle. Tiger had (has?) this in spades, everyone talks about him being able to will the ball into the hole, but the fact he was able to carry on with multiple affairs at the same time, while winning golf tournaments, just shows how focussed he was. Although not particularly admirable, it is incredible how he managed to juggle wife, family, mistress, extra mistress, one night stands, sponsorships, media interviews, golf practice, intensive fitness regime... and still have time, energy and focus to go out and win golf tournaments.

Best Driver?

Rory (unquestionably) Really?

Sergio is better, as are a few other I imagine.

Personally I am getting bored of Rory already, he has won what 4, 5 tournements, lets not get too carried away just yet, he has a few major things to work on, his putting and his attitude!

I think it's sport in general, particularly in this country that builds up each sports best exponents and over exposes them to such a ridiculous extent that you are sick of the sight of them, e.g. Woods, McIlroy, Federer etc.

In general I agree s_r.

Sadly in Rory's case he seems to have brought a lot of it onto himself rather than being an innocent victim of the fickle media

Great point about Daley and his natural talent, as it was obviously his head and lifestyle that killed him. Luke's a talent without a doubt, but has realised recently that talent alone doesn't get it done, as its a mix of self belief, tanacity, able to grind and be single minded and fully focused. Those things are difficult especially when the breaks go against you. The finish that Tiger put on in the Chevron was exactly what makes the difference on day 4. A card littered with errors and a fragile putting stroke sees him go one behind with two to play. Was that self belief or dogged never say die determination?

You can go through every sport and pick out certain unusual people, who have got all the natural talent in the world, but hardly any reach the top. It has to be a certain formula including arrogance put into the mix to reach the pinnacle of any sport. Harrington had it a couple of years ago, Tiger had it for years, Messi has it, Henry had it.

I'm hoping to get it this weekend, just for a couple of hours.

Certain peoples talent has outshine their work ethic, such as Best, Gascoigne, Le Tissier etc whereas in other people work ethic is an integral part of their game such as Donald.

Does Rory really have an attitude problem? I've heard quite a few say this but I doubt it's veracity. He obviously has great passion for the game and was indoctrinated into from childhood like Tiger and you can see 'Rory has got the drive of a man who wants to make history.

I also don't buy what many keep saying about Tiger's ethic considering he's been a prodigy at all levels of the game dating back to when he was big enough as a toddler to wield a club. I don't believe the likes of Daly or Garcia are any more talented. I can't think of any greater indicator of golf talent than getting a ball into a hole with a club in as few shots as possible.

Agree totally SR

IMHO in the golf world.

Snead had it but not Hogan
Watson/Palmer not Nicklaus
Seve not Faldo
Rory not Tiger

It is playing your sport to a very high standard without looking like you are making much effort. Higgins and O'Sullivan in snooker and Bolt in athletics are other good examples

mthierty To get right to the very top you need a little bit of arrogance, so nothing wrong with it. It just gets a bit annoying when someone like Poulter (Who I've always liked) shows too much arrogance as he has no natural talent, but works hard. I think Poults was a 7 handicap when he went to tour school, but got to where he is because of the work ethic, self belief and arrogance etc. he'll never be seen as world beater, just a good player. Rory can be arrogant because he can back it up now.

Doon the Water wrote:Agree totally SR

IMHO in the golf world.

Snead had it but not Hogan
Watson/Palmer not Nicklaus
Seve not Faldo
Rory not Tiger

It is playing your sport to a very high standard without looking like you are making much effort. Higgins and O'Sullivan in snooker and Bolt in athletics are other good examples

O'Sullivan is a great example Doon. All the natural talent you could possibly have, yet just seems to lack something upstairs. You'd have to think with his ability, and say Steve Davis or Hendry's mind, he would win every tournament he entered!

Doon the Water wrote:Agree totally SR

IMHO in the golf world.

Snead had it but not Hogan
Watson/Palmer not Nicklaus
Seve not Faldo
Rory not Tiger

It is playing your sport to a very high standard without looking like you are making much effort. Higgins and O'Sullivan in snooker and Bolt in athletics are other good examples

I guess the next question is what would rather have the talent of the Snead's, Palmer's etc or the Work ethic of the Hogan's Nicklaus' etc.

I'd go for the latter.

Doc wrote:mthierty To get right to the very top you need a little bit of arrogance, so nothing wrong with it. It just gets a bit annoying when someone like Poulter (Who I've always liked) shows too much arrogance as he has no natural talent, but works hard. I think Poults was a 7 handicap when he went to tour school, but got to where he is because of the work ethic, self belief and arrogance etc. he'll never be seen as world beater, just a good player. Rory can be arrogant because he can back it up now.

Apparently by his own admission when he was playing junior matches and was shaking his opponents hand at the start Rory would something along the lines of youve already lost, something like that anyway.
So clearly he has always had a bit of an arrogant streak in him off the back of an absolute belief in his own ability.

Doon the Water wrote:Agree totally SR

IMHO in the golf world.

Snead had it but not Hogan
Watson/Palmer not Nicklaus
Seve not Faldo
Rory not Tiger

It is playing your sport to a very high standard without looking like you are making much effort. Higgins and O'Sullivan in snooker and Bolt in athletics are other good examples

I remember Christina Ohuruogo spending a winters training at Bolts camp in Jamaica. She said she could not believe the work they all put in and in particular Bolt who would always have to be that much better than every in training.
Bolt has plenty of talent but he has a massive work ethic as well, the reason he makes it look so easy is because of both factors. I think last year he slacked off a bit and he looked almost human again.

Has anyone read Bounce by Matthew Syed? It's about the "myth" of talent.
Not sure where I stand on the issue.

Not a fan of Syeds writing to be honest, or Stuart Barnes which is annoying as they are both columnists for my daily read.

Diggers wrote:
Apparently by his own admission when he was playing junior matches and was shaking his opponents hand at the start Rory would something along the lines of youve already lost, something like that anyway.
So clearly he has always had a bit of an arrogant streak in him off the back of an absolute belief in his own ability.

I'd love to know if that was true Diggers! (no I'm not doubting you, just would like to see it a little more definitive)

Whenever I see Rory now I always think back to when he appeared on the scene at The Open a few years ago (as an amateur?). I know the old adage of "never judge a book by its cover", but I remember thinking at the time what an unpleasant little oik he looked. Then, after seeing a few interviews with him I revised my judgement and chastised myself for judging purely on superficial looks.

As time has gone on however, I'm begining to wonder if my first impression was actually correct

For me it is clear.

I practise very little, have a strange swing that is technically wrong, but have played to and still play at a decent level, it has been described as raw talent.

Whereas, there is another guy at our club, who really had no game at all as a junior, but he is now +1, he is able to apply himself to practise, whereas I find it the most tedious of ordeals.

As someone says, although I am sure Ronnie O'Sullivan does practise, he has a much more natural approach than the likes of Hendry, or more recently John Higgins.

Davie I think it was in one of those big Sunday Times interviews. As I remember Hh was very honest about it, it wasnt written in a stitch up sense. Very matter of fact that he said he could be arrogant as a kid but wouldnt act that way now.
Fair play for him to admit it really.

I think there's a fine line between confidence in your own ability and arrogance. I actually think Luke strikes this balance pretty well. He's been criticised in the past for being "happy" with top 10 finishes, but I think he's toughened up over the last 2 years, and now believes in his ability to win any event. But then being undisputed #1 (?!), at least statistically, will give the old confidence a boost....

As for Rory, I think he comes across more as arrogant. Or naive, particularly with some of his Twitter rants and faux pas with the media. For a while people were making excuses for him because he was still young, but I think those excuses have run out now. He's still got time to learn though.

Casey is another one that has been accused of arrogance in the past, probably when trying to appear confident and talk up his chances. As I say, I think it's a fine line, and the media will jump on any perceived flaw either way.

JD you sound very much like me, terrible swing technique, hardly ever practice because I'm too busy or can't be arsed. For me to see the handicap tumble to where i think it should be, i'd have to put the work in. I just convince myself that I play golf for pleasure and not fussed about the scores

Doc wrote: For me to see the handicap tumble to where i think it should be, i'd have to put the work in. I just convince myself that I play golf for pleasure and not fussed about the scores

Couldn't put it better myself

I hate pratcising, bores me to death, can sometimes make myself go in the net for 10 minjtes before playing, but on the main, I'll just stand and chat until I tee up, have a couple of swipes and then hit it!

JDandfries wrote:I hate pratcising, bores me to death, can sometimes make myself go in the net for 10 minjtes before playing, but on the main, I'll just stand and chat until I tee up, have a couple of swipes and then hit it!

Im the same, usually takes me a few swipes but I usually hit the ball in the end.

I thought considering all the aggro going on elsewhere this might mellow the vibe a little. Its my personal favourite x factor/pop idol moment but then the song is one of the all time favourites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WWtGpEqpV4

Yep, it certainly is all kicking off, Merc is in the process of 'suggesting' that the Mods have brought in re-inforcements from other boards!

Try reading Bounce by Matthew Syed. It is sometimes sub-titled The Talent Myth. It is a fasinating book from a guy who was UK number 1 table tennis player for 10 years as well as winning Commonwealth golds.

I cannot do justice to a whole book but he realised that when he talked to people about why he was so good that his talents like quick reactions, hand-eye coordination, etc were not really true. Had his parents not given him and his brother a TT table when he was 8, had he not gone to a school where the head of sports was the UK coach, had he not been given the keys to a local club where he met other TT kids, he would never have been a TT player.

He cites many, many examples and studies and the key to being good at something is how many hours you put into it. The rule of thumb is 10,000 hours and you can only really practice 1,000 per year. People like Tiger and Rory started at age 4 so by the time they were in their mid-teens they were years ahead of others.

There are some things that I disagree with him, as I feel there has to be something in you that makes you want to play but it is really challenges conventional wisdom and is one of the most interesting books I have read this year.

As for Luke's comments about Rory - Having read his Twitter where he feels he can get what he said across without someone just picking bits, I agree. Rory makes swinging a golf club look rediculously easy. But (maybe not just now) who would you choose to get the ball in the hole in the lowest number of shots?

I haven't read the book, but is Syed suggesting that the many players who were better than him starting playing when they were 6 and went to a school where someone even better than the UK Coach was at?

There's a degree of nature and nurture in all sports. I reckon I could have started playing golf at any age and I would never have made pro, but on the other hand, current pros wouldn't be where they are now if they hadn't started so young.

Is Syed suggesting that anyone could say, run sub 13 minutes for 5000 metres like Mo Farah, if they start young enough and put the correct amount of training in?

Its not as simple as just putting the hours in, they have to be quality hours. He talks about changing to a Chinese coach who completely changed the way he trained and it took his game on miles. Same hours, different results. He also say that there are some things that genetics mean you cannot do - 5' tall, you're never going to play in the NBA. Obviously Farah is genetically well built for running distance.

As I said, I don't buy into it absolutely but he gives examples of parents who have pushed kids into sports and disciplines they know little about but see opportunity. Williams sisters in tennis and look up the chess grandmaster sisters in hungary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polgár

You have to remember that it considered that the most quality training you can do in a year is 1,000 hrs which is a huge amount to do. So not a simple task. 20 odd hours a week for 10 years. It is a book that challenges accepted wisdom and you may even wonder what you could have been!

I read Bounce, and although it was an interesting read (less so the second half which lacked a bit of cohesion), I found myself disagreeing with most of Syed's key points. The examples he uses are valid but do not prove his points.

The perfect example is table tennis. He got to represent the UK at table tennis because of all the natural advantages handed to him (table in his garage, brother to practice with and compete against, school teacher who was a coach, local club etc) and because of the hard work and practice he put in. This is the central theory to his book.

But so few people in this country grow up wanting to be table tennis champions, if you dedicate your life to it there is a fair chance of success. I doubt this would have worked had he wanted to persue a career in football, where millions of kids grow up dreaming of being the next superstar and the competition is huge. In these situations, hard work is not enough, you need talent as well. That is why top teams send scouts around the world to look for that raw spark of talent that they can harness.

Raycastle
Some good points - I'd also add that to become a footballer you need a couple of other things to go your way:
1 - A bit of luck that the scours are there on the right day
2 - To be an early developer physically.

The same don't really apply to golf, or indeed to most individual sports where you can develop at your own pace a bit.

The whole talent v training question does get a bit over-simplified - you won't turn yourself into a world class competitor without at least a high level of natural talent, but natural talent will only take you so far, and after that you have to work hard at your game. Looking at tennis, someone like Richard Gasquet has probably more natural talent than Rafa Nadal, but Rafa has been prepared to work harder and practive harder, and so is the guy with multiple slam titles. It's only when you get to Federer, with both abundant natural talent and a great work ethic that you get to 'best ever' territory.

I like Tiger's comment about Daly being more naturally talented, and Els might be another one in the 'natural' group - swings so easily and generates plenty of power, yet had great touch on and around the greens. Perhaps not surprising that he was also a top class rugby player in his youth.