Ireland to host Rugby World Cup in 2023?

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Ireland to host Rugby World Cup?

I was listening to a piece on Newstalk on Friday evening about this and it seemed quite serious truth be told. Economist David McWilliams was on, former Irish coach Eddie O Sullivan, IRFU spokespeople and transport and sport Minister Leo Varadkar was on too lending his support.

All spoke about it being a distinct possibility that Ireland would submit an application to host the 2023 RWC.

Many points for and against this obviously.

The main issue seemed to be stadiums of the right quality. NZ spent 300m or something like that on developing their stadiums to make sure they were to a certain standard for the RWC. The people on air recognised early on that without the support of the GAA Ireland's bid would die as they own a lot of stadiums, but more importantly the only stadium in Ireland over 60,000 (a necessity to host a RWC final).

Assuming the GAA would support the bid (which is by no means a sure thing) Ireland's stadiums would include:

Croke Park
Lansdowne Road
Thomond Park
Ravenhill -needs to be developed
The RDS -needs to be developed
The Sportsground- needs to be developed
A GAA stadium in Castlebar can't remember the name
Another GAA stadium in the midlands can't remember the name

There are others like Musgrave Park and Donnybrook etc too.

On the stadiums front, they may be a bit small to host 1/4 and 1/2 finals. Obviously the final would be in Croke but in the 1/4's we'd need 4 big stadiums and we may be a bit short there IMO. I'm not sure what stadiums the kiwi's used for the 1/4's tbh.

Other things that were discussed on the show were, the Irish volunteering spirit. The Kiwi's really bought into the RWC as it's such a huge part of their culture and they really made it a good place for supporters to go. I (like the panel on the show Friday evening) believe we Irish could put on a serious show for the travelling supporters. Our hospitality is renowned and we take rugby seriously. I'd like to think we are a welcoming people and respectful (for the most part). I think the atmosphere at some of the games would be amazing and we could really try an infuse some of our Celtic culture into pre match routines the way the Kiwi's did with the Maori culture. We did a good job with the Special Olympics.

Our infrastructure is quite good now.
There are motorways to the main cities and trains and buses are relatively regular. One thing is for sure, no one would need to fly!

The IRFU said they'd be willing to do it and I think mentioned meeting the government at some point and said it may be an idea to look at doing it with Scotland or Wales as well as an option. The Government said they'd be interested in looking at the opportunity

David McWilliams said that even though RWC 2011 was supposed to be a financial disaster for NZ, they actually have made money off it. Only just but they did and obviously it will do great things for their tourist industry.

Some things that may be an issue:
The GAA not wanting to be involved.
The IRFU making a hames of ticket prices again
The lack 30,000+ stadiums for 1/4+1/2 finals
The IRB may want to send it to a developing nation.

What do people think?
Would you like the 2023 RWC to be in Ireland?
Will Stadiums be a huge problem?
Any other set backs you can think of?

Thats what I thought too Gowales.

Would prefer for either Argentina or RSA to get 2023

I'd love Argentina to get it.

From my point of view I like it when a sporting event is in a place that's a bit exotic (like when the cricket is in the West Indies) and I get to see some of the culture around the country and how the people are getting into the tournament. I think Argentina could put on quite a colourful show.

Ireland is a bit too familiar for me and it would be just like having it in England, Wales or Scotland.

Having said that, all this is based on what I want to see and has no bearing on stadia, transport, infrastructure, funding or other imporant stuff

I know what you mean Sugar and Spice.

I am a bit torn about RWC 2015. On one hand its so easy to get to. On the other its not like ENgland is much different to here.

If we don't get it I'd definitely prefer for Argentina to get it than the others, I've always wanted to go to S.America (and will before 2023 I hope) but going there would be savage and rugby would really benefit from going there and Argentina itself would benefit rugby being there too

Purely for selfish reasons. Argentina is about 1,200 euro o get to... Romania, 100 euro some occasions.

Also, Argentina's soccer stadia will be as busy as Italy's so I am not as sure stadia would be available...

Japan and then Argentina??? Meh....

Is Argentina really that much!!

Thomond wrote:

The GAA don't open Corker if they don't get 1.75 million per game from the FAI and IRFU (think that was the figure). They will do most things for money, they will get a shedload from this probably more gate receipts than the IRFU and then some, your second point isn't really relevant I feel. Antrim would be 30 years repaying the GAA for that money, rugby is far different, more big clashes and more home games.

Yea, the GAA should just let anyone use their facilities for nothing! Forget about all the raffle tickets that were sold by GAA members, the unpaid players - and I bet Padraic Duffy isn't on 400K a year that Delaney is on.

The GAA thought long and hard about opening up Croke Park and grassroots soccer & rugby would only love to be able to use GAA pitches - its more like the GAA will do anything to foster GAA games, rather than do anything for money. soccer in particular would be in a far healthier place in particular if they adopted the gaa attitude to their sport.

for the record - the GAA earned €37m for renting out the stadium for 27 games to soccer & rugby. Don't forget as well that the IRFU & Soccer had an extra 30K capacity of ticket sales when in Croke Park. They both made a killing when using CP.

Casement will be the main stadium in Ulster now (where Ulster finals will be staged). Its just like what Croke Park is to Leinster & Semple is to Munster so its not up to Antrim GAA to fund it on its own.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:If we don't get it I'd definitely prefer for Argentina to get it than the others, I've always wanted to go to S.America (and will before 2023 I hope) but going there would be savage and rugby would really benefit from going there and Argentina itself would benefit rugby being there too

They are soccer mad in Argentina. 20 & 23K turned up for the last two matches Argentina played against France. 10K turned up for the Italy game. Very risky place to stage a world cup if you are depending on the locals to attend matches.

Can't see SA getting it in 2023 - 2 years after a Lions Tour - it would be a bit risky if trying to attract people Ireland & UK. Maybe they could give the Lions Tour to Argentina in 2021 and let SA host the 2023 world cup!

facts are lads - Ireland is the only top 8 country that has never hosted the world cup. I think Ireland should be in the Q before places where you might not even notice that the world cup was going on. People should recognise that holding the soccer world cup in the USA did nothing to develop the sport over there.

Argentina are a different beast to USA though. They are allready in the quad nations. It is getting bigger.

But Ireland do deserve a RWC- no doubts in my mind, but then its also about time Ireland tried to get one... You dont get anything if you dont apply!!

Sin é wrote: - Ireland is the only top 8 country that has never hosted the world cup.....

Your affirmation is false.
What is your criteria for determining the top 8 countries?
And why 8 countries and not 7 or 10?
Because Scotland isn't in the first 8 places in the IRB world ranking.
Argentina is into the 8 first, and never hosted a RWC.

Agrie Fan, the original 8 members of the IRB were the "home" unions and sanzar. That's changing now obviously, but until recently that was the rugby world.

Argentina have never hosted a RWC for very good reasons...

Argie fan wrote:

Sin é wrote: - Ireland is the only top 8 country that has never hosted the world cup.....

Your affirmation is false.
What is your criteria for determining the top 8 countries?
And why 8 countries and not 7 or 10?
Because Scotland isn't in the first 8 places in the IRB world ranking.
Argentina is into the 8 first, and never hosted a RWC.

OK, I'll put it another way - its the only country that isn't a developing nation (as in tours annually, hosts other countries and has teams that play in a professional league). Italy has all those things as well, but its very early days for them and it will be interesting to see if they can maintain their two professional teams for a sustained period of time.

I would love for Ireland to host a world cup, but do they have the money behind them to do it ? What with all the trouble with the eurozone and was'nt the Irish economy up poop creek not so long ago ? I was under the impression that the host country had to stump up quite a lot of money before they could host the tournement, could the Irish government justify hosting a rugby world cup before sorting out other more pressing issues first ? Sincerley though I would really love Ireland to have a world cup and I would hope that Wales were based in Limerick as I absolutley love that place. Also Ireland is a do-able world cup for me as I would not be going to the other side of the world.

Duigers wrote:Agrie Fan, the original 8 members of the IRB were the "home" unions and sanzar. That's changing now obviously, but until recently that was the rugby world.

Is not the same to talk of top 8 nations, who speak of 8 original unions, there is one very important difference.
And as you say, things are changing, then forget the old 8 unions, look ahead and let the rugby expand.

Duigers wrote:Argentina have never hosted a RWC for very good reasons...

I'd like to know those very good reasons.

Because they are relatively late into the sport and havent applied to host before...maybe!

LordDowlais wrote:I would love for Ireland to host a world cup, but do they have the money behind them to do it ? What with all the trouble with the eurozone and was'nt the Irish economy up poop creek not so long ago ? I was under the impression that the host country had to stump up quite a lot of money before they could host the tournement, could the Irish government justify hosting a rugby world cup before sorting out other more pressing issues first ? Sincerley though I would really love Ireland to have a world cup and I would hope that Wales were based in Limerick as I absolutley love that place. Also Ireland is a do-able world cup for me as I would not be going to the other side of the world.

The economy was (and to an extent still is) in a "state of chasis" but justifiably or not the Irish government are going ahead with their bid for sure.

For one Mystiro!

Another reason may be due to the fact that your currency completely collapsed in the recent past...

Lack of interest.... infrastructure... guaranteed turnout.... general interest in the game in Argentina.....

As why Italy have not got one as well and therein you will find the answer...

Lord: Money will be no issue ... it'll be in 10 years time (our economy is growing again... stagnant in the UK at best) ...

Argie fan... may I add that is actually a DREAM of mine to visit Argentina, but I think for a RWC, there are other contenders (Ireland) which should get it 1st...

If Irish tax payers money goes to anything except paying millionaire bankers gambling debts then I'm all for it.

But it does seem hard to justify the expense of hosting a RWC with the banking collapse, property crash, debt crisis, recession thingy.

Feckless, we can't put the country on hold for the next 50 years though. God knows what's going to happen in 10 years.

If that was your thinking, just let France hold it every 4 years and be done with it.

Also, I am not sure what qualifies you (or anyone else) to talk about "costs" when there has been no formal appraisal or CBA done....

there is no is no real cost anyway..

mystiroakey wrote:there is no is no real cost anyway..

I think you will find that there is. Didn't New Zealand have to stump up something like 100 million to the IRB before they could host it? Then there was all the costs of upgrading their facilities and infrastructure and the what not.

It was given to NZ as their last hurray / bash at it...

As mentioned ad nausium on this thread, Ireland would bring in twice the numbers of visitors and the infrastructure is there... it just needs touching up..

Duigers wrote:It was given to NZ as their last hurray / bash at it...

As mentioned ad nausium on this thread, Ireland would bring in twice the numbers of visitors and the infrastructure is there... it just needs touching up..

The "last hurrah" idea did not come from RWC limited, or the IRB, this patronising idea come from the RFU who actually didn't vote for NZ. It's not true at all. Believe me the RWC will back to NZ again. The idea of any other notion is simple absurd. It's like saying the Olympics will never be hosted in Britain again.

dulgers - The NZRU had to stump up 100m to the IRB (underwritten by NZ Gov). The NZRU then sold tickets and earned about 80m so all they were down was 20m (which was easily covered by the extra take in tax from the 133K visitors to NZ for the tournament).

Sin é wrote:dulgers - The NZRU had to stump up 100m to the IRB (underwritten by NZ Gov). The NZRU then sold tickets and earned about 80m so all they were down was 20m (which was easily covered by the extra take in tax from the 133K visitors to NZ for the tournament).

New Zealand only had 133k visitors for the world cup I thought it would be more or less 5 times that much. If Ireland had it you can bet your bottom dollar there would be at least ten times that many visitors. Wales took about 40 thousand to Scotland during the 2005 grand slam campaign, just think how many would go to Ireland for the world cup, and that is without England, France, Scotland and then add everyone else to the mix, I suppose New Zealand is just far to remote for that many people to make the trip, the same could probably said about Japan and Argentina and Australia though.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:dulgers - The NZRU had to stump up 100m to the IRB (underwritten by NZ Gov). The NZRU then sold tickets and earned about 80m so all they were down was 20m (which was easily covered by the extra take in tax from the 133K visitors to NZ for the tournament).

New Zealand only had 133k visitors for the world cup I thought it would be more or less 5 times that much. If Ireland had it you can bet your bottom dollar there would be at least ten times that many visitors. Wales took about 40 thousand to Scotland during the 2005 grand slam campaign, just think how many would go to Ireland for the world cup, and that is without England, France, Scotland and then add everyone else to the mix, I suppose New Zealand is just far to remote for that many people to make the trip, the same could probably said about Japan and Argentina and Australia though.

Does that include or exclude the 51,236 British people who relocated to NZ in 2011 prior to September?

Ireland is so close to wales , england, scotland and france..

Gonna get loads of visitors!

I am not sure about a million- but certainly 300k plus..

That will offset any cost on its own- obviously this isnt on the world cup books- but its still injected back into irelands economy.

BTW I reakon 100k Irish fans will come over from GB before we even think about other nations. But the thing is you have to do it right or it just wont work effectively enough. You also have to factor in the legacy of it all. It gets kinda complex when we work out a 'real' cost to ireland- But I 100% feel it would benefit Ireland.. This isnt like hosting a 10billion pound olympic games!!! And all the same i doubt that will have any real impact on the UK.. Personally i think we will benefit in the long run

Sin é wrote:dulgers - The NZRU had to stump up 100m to the IRB (underwritten by NZ Gov). The NZRU then sold tickets and earned about 80m so all they were down was 20m (which was easily covered by the extra take in tax from the 133K visitors to NZ for the tournament).

Yep. The NZRU paid $10m of the loss, with the remainder covered by the NZ government.

Sin é wrote:dulgers - The NZRU had to stump up 100m to the IRB (underwritten by NZ Gov). The NZRU then sold tickets and earned about 80m so all they were down was 20m (which was easily covered by the extra take in tax from the 133K visitors to NZ for the tournament).

Trying to think back, that would mean the net cost of hosting a rugby world cup in 11 years time could work out less than the minimum debt level of the first round of developers going into NAMA. Or potentially half of the cost of a certain irish bank's computer glitch. Or less than what was handed over to the landlord in rent for having twenty-something sporting events in Croker. If U2 play their next world tour on top of an flatbed trailer it would cover the cost of not carting the 'claw' around the globe.

Sure, if every bar set up a collection pot at the till and for every round ordered they take the price of another pint and put it in the jar then we would save up this money in how many years/months/weekends?

Sin é wrote:facts are lads - Ireland is the only top 8 country that has never hosted the world cup

alternatively:

facts are lads - Argentina is the only country to reach the semis of the RWC that has never hosted the RWC

Yes this world cup bid is for a decade away but if the IRB can choose between taking a gamble on a country limping along economically and one that can definitely have the cash in ten years I don't see them being so keen on Ireland hosting it.

We will definitely have the cash in 10 years and we wouldn't have to spend as much as others (bidders) as our infrastructure is pretty sound and our country pretty small

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:We will definitely have the cash in 10 years

How can you possibly know what way the economy will be in 10 years.

Red if you cant look at an economy as a going concern then there is a massive problem!!

you have the cash today- dont worry about ten years. To win any RWC tender you will have to proove you have the money even if you dont sell any tickets. Your govenment will underwright it! It really is peanuts anyway!!

Mysteriokey,

I agree it is a concern. I wonder how Pete could say that what way the economy will be and how we will "definitely" have the cash in 10 years.

The debate rages on with what to do in an economic down turn- Spend or CUT , stimulate or save, distrubute wealth through low level jobs or pay unemployment!

I am a firm believer in spending at the level affected in an economic slump. That is at the labourforce end of the spectrum, reduce unemplyment and get them out working- Irelands biggest problem is spending in the incorrect way- Your unemployment benefit is double what it is in the UK. This is ludicrous in my eyes. So the debate could be (especially in an age where EU laws state anyone from europe can tender for any contract) Are Irsih contracters gonna to get the redevelopment work anyway!!

Anyway that is another matter probally, But anyway.. Spending on this RWC is basically spending on sport, future tourism and creating jobs at the same time. This is a good thing..

mystiroakey wrote:I am a firm believer in spending at the level affected in an economic slump. That is at the labourforce end of the spectrum, reduce unemplyment and get them out working- Irelands biggest problem is spending in the incorrect way- Your unemployment benefit is double what it is in the UK. This is ludicrous in my eyes. So the debate could be (especially in an age where EU laws state anyone from europe can tender for any contract) Are Irsih contracters gonna to get the redevelopment work anyway!!

Thats comparing apples and oranges, Ireland and the UK have two different currencies and living costs. Unemployment benefit is a red herring when there is no employment, cutting it only succeeds in pushing more people below the poverty line. The time to cut benefit is when there is economic growth not recession imo. Its just a soft target for politicians.

Public sector wages are generally too high in Ireland but that is something that has to be tackled carefully and gradually as creating Greek style social and economic instability isn't in anyones interest.

The Irish economy is still growing though and I think there are plenty of positive signs, more so than in the UK and many other European countries right now.

Irelands biggest problem is that they are very dependant on exports, multinationals and overseas demand, and also how the markets react to Greeces ongoing problems...none of which is within their control.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:We will definitely have the cash in 10 years

How can you possibly know what way the economy will be in 10 years.

Just from what economists are outlining. Fair enough 'definitely' should not feature in the sentence. My girlfriend works in real estate and they are all saying that things should start looking more normal come 2016 or so, war, or natural disaster withstanding.

rodders wrote: Irelands biggest problem is that they are very dependant on exports, multinationals and overseas demand, and also how the markets react to Greeces ongoing problems...none of which is within their control.

Ireland's biggest problem is corruption/cronyism - its endemic in the body politic.

Self certification for building standards - what was/is that all about !!
Ireland is left with swathes of building that are both empty and not fit to live it.
There is work a plenty in years to come just pulling them down.

The GAA grounds I know do not meet the minimum standards required and would have to be upgraded to host World Cup rugby matches.
I also think 2027 is a more realistic option.

If you cut benefit but create jobs you can win..

I run a business in the Uk that is really only possible due to what may be seen as OTT Health and safety or the OTT green deals. What there actually are really here for is job creation..

Spain is a great example- another country with massive unemployment benefit(please note we are only talking about that specific benifit- on the whole the UK pays out more benefit per capita- just not on unemployment)

Spain pay very high wages on there labour force when there were in that building boom recently, due to having to pay over the odds due to the unemployment benefit. The spainish building firms were cracking on without a care in the world. There were very expensive but at the same time it didnt matter- because the properties where budgeted to sell for x amount..

When the crash happend - all the property was actually seen to being overvalued- same thing happened in Ireland)- the companies basically all went bust because in laymans terms they had allready spent more on labour than what the flats would be worth even if they had finished them!!!

Everyone basically gets sacked as a result- but no local firms can start up again- because they cant pay high enough wages over the unempoyment benefit to actually make a profit on housing..

I think people have to stop looking at greece for Irelands or spains problems and actually look at the root problems of your own countries. Both are very similar, wages were to high, benefits to high, assets way overvalued.. Create jobs and cut benefits, and part of the job is done!

Clearly Ireland should never have got in to the Euro currency either- but again that is another matter..

Ireland unempolyment is about 15% , uks is about 8%. Its all about spending in the right way.

Think about the basics, the process..

Pay out on unemployment benefit,

or pay out half the unemployment- or possibly even a quarter(if irelands was halved) and spend the saving on public spending by employing half the unemployed. Then at least the spending is going into something tangiable and aiding the infrastructure of the country!

geoff998rugby wrote:

rodders wrote: Irelands biggest problem is that they are very dependant on exports, multinationals and overseas demand, and also how the markets react to Greeces ongoing problems...none of which is within their control.

Ireland's biggest problem is corruption/cronyism - its endemic in the body politic.

Well yes that too I suppose.... but then again we aren't adverse to a bit of corruption and cronyism north of the border either.....

Certaintly not - but the scary thing is I think we are actually not as bad.

That fact it is worse than here shows how bad it is

mystiroakey wrote:
I think people have to stop looking at greece for Irelands or spains problems and actually look at the root problems of your own countries. Both are very similar, wages were to high, benefits to high, assets way overvalued.. Create jobs and cut benefits, and part of the job is done!

It not that simple. Irelands borrowing costs are falling back to sustainable levels, from the heights that led to them requiring a bail out but every time the markets get spooked that Greece may leave the Euro the borrowing cost shoot back up. This is completely out of Irelands hands. Greece is a black hole hanging over every European country right now, including the UK. Until there is a long term resolution the economic problems will continue.

Rodders i am concentrating on irelands specific problems, and possible ways to get things back on track- rather than the forces out of your control, which is europe wide!

Geoff, which GAA grounds are you thinking of? Are they up North or in general, barring Pairc Ui Chaoimh, which is a shoite hole, most are in decent shape.


We will be out of major shoite when the redeveoping is being done. It has high costs but there are costs that will help people and the country, i.e. building will take people off the Dole etc. It is feasible I think.

mystiroakey wrote:Rodders i am concentrating on irelands specific problems, and possible ways to get things back on track- rather than the forces out of your control, which is europe wide!

Yes but Ireland specific problem is that they have a huge sovereign dept, caused exclusively by bailing out their banks and their borrowing costs are heavily tied to what happens to Greece.

Their economy is growing but as an export and service driven economy Irelands continued growth is dependent on overseas demand which Ireland can't control either.

Things are looking up for Ireland, particularly if the EU/IMF agree to restructure their dept to the banks rather than the country (as with Spain) but the continued recovery is out of their hands.

Until the banks get themselves sorted and start investing in small business we won't see any sustained growth for a long, long time, however that won't happen until there is stability and growth in the housing market. There are huge black holes in the banks asset sheets and 25% of the country are in Mortgage arrears.

Things will get alot worse before they get better and thats across the board and not just Ireland I fear.

Thomond wrote:Geoff, which GAA grounds are you thinking of? Are they up North or in general, barring Pairc Ui Chaoimh, which is a shoite hole, most are in decent shape.


We will be out of major shoite when the redeveoping is being done. It has high costs but there are costs that will help people and the country, i.e. building will take people off the Dole etc. It is feasible I think.

I think the IRFU and the Government are well aware that some of them are not up to scratch but that they will be worked on and that they will be grand come the time and by grand I mean up to the required standard and probably beyond it. If Ireland do this my source says they are going to put everything behind it and do it as well as they can