Marler for England?

A number of pundits, most recently Jerry Guscott on BBC, have stated Joe Marler should play against Scotland in the opening 6Ns fixture, a view supported on these forums by some (hi Robshaw4England). the one thing that these professional pundits have in common is they are all former backs. Are they perhaps blinded by the things that Marler does in loose play?

What does v2 think?

As an ex back row forward I have voted no. My first requirement for a prop is they have to be able to scrummage. They do not have to be destructive but we cannot see them crumble all the time. Other skills come in to play if they can hold their own in the tight.

Australia in the international game, and Wasps in recent years domestically, have shown what can happen when you are getting destroyed in the scrums.

My opinions are...a prop should first and foremost....PROP. He is not international standard at that ...but he is young...so lets not rush him in...

Quins are doing great with him...and probably get him in to the Saxons...

When hes ready then he could be frightening....

Only if he etches 606v2 on the side of his head. He has done almost everything else.
And when he keeps his bind under pressure.

Lancaster and Rowntree will be the ones to judge if hes ready, but Id be suprissed if they start him. England could have a very mobile packwithout him.
Corbiserrio is the obvious first choice if we assume Stevens and Sheridan are done.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Lancaster and Rowntree will be the ones to judge if hes ready, but Id be suprissed if they start him. England could have a very mobile packwithout him.
Corbiserrio is the obvious first choice if we assume Stevens and Sheridan are done.

Peter, im not one for throwing out older players just because...erm they're old....but in this particular case i think Corbs has shown he can handle it...and is only going to get better and better....so i would defo say he should be first choice now...but still keep either Sheridan on the bench if he is fit and playing.
Im not a huge fan of Stevens...

I originally thought no.

Then I went with yes, and I really think we must. My reasons for this are:

1. England rely too much on the scrum as it is without getting enough from it. Look at games against Oz and Wales where we dominated but still lost. We've tried this approach and it doesn't work.

2. Marler is good enough at scrum time to not be a liability, he may not demolish the opposition but in the modern game that doesn't matter. What does is speed around the park.

3. It's all about the rucking, running and tackling nowdays, scrums are low down the priority list. Asl ong as you aren't being humped you're usually ok.

4. He shouldn't be starting, i'd have corbs and Cole. But he brings a lot more across the pitch then either of those two.

well, all I would say is that England's Loosehead options are not great at the moment.

As an ex-prop, I want my props to be able to scrummage... anything else is a bonus.

BUT... I have to concede that there are a lot less scrums in the game these days
As such, if he can hold his side up long enough to get the ball out, then that might be ok.

Having said that, he is often a fight waiting to happen... and that is a problem.


Given that our other LH options aren't great, he may be worth a try in the 6N's
I get the feeling that this 6N is going to be very experimental for us... experimental coaching setup, experimental style of play etc
So there's not a lot to lose by trying him out.


In my opinion, Matt Stevens has showed that he is a better TH than LH so lets keep him on the other side.
Corbisiero looks fairly promising, so maybe we should have Corbisiero and Marler fighting (not literally) over the LH spot.


Either that, or Wasps have a great LooseHead with plenty of international experience


I'm voting for 'yes'.... but only just

Geordie I agree.
I believe Stevens was selected for NZ on merit but he really let himself and England down, albeit playing on the wrong side. He looked out of his depth.
With Sheridan again England will know better, is he shoulder up to it? He may be able to do a job if they can garuantee his fitness, but if hes an injury liability surely its better to get to work on the next generation now.
Corbs has a few caps and has been around for the squad for a while. Hes done OK when called upon in the past so youd think he'd be the go to guy.

Cole and Hartley may be young but youd have to consider them seasoned internationals now. PDJ has some experience with the squad.
Whilst losing Thommo, Steven, Sheridan all at once ( and its not so long since Payne and Vickery went, and lets assume Chuters done) means England have elder statemn in the front row theres enough experience to cope especially if Rowntree is as good a coach as hes made out to be,

yappysnap wrote:I originally thought no.

Then I went with yes, and I really think we must. My reasons for this are:

4. He shouldn't be starting, i'd have corbs and Cole. But he brings a lot more across the pitch then either of those two.

Slight contradiction?

It's a no from me.

My reasons are twofold.

1. His scrummaging is not of the required standard. Until he can consistently hold his own against other international props then he cannot be a starter for me.

2. His temperament is suspect. He can be wound up easily by more experienced props, and the last thing England need is to be spending time playing with 14 men.

The Saxons is the right place for him this season, and as regards the senior loosehead spot, for me Corbisiero must be first choice now, and I would take Mullan (who has been very good for Worcester this year) as back up.

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I originally thought no.

Then I went with yes, and I really think we must. My reasons for this are:

4. He shouldn't be starting, i'd have corbs and Cole. But he brings a lot more across the pitch then either of those two.

Slight contradiction?

Not at all.

He should be in the England squad. He probably shouldn't be starting, although i'd be happy with him in the Saxons otherwise.

yappysnap wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I originally thought no.

Then I went with yes, and I really think we must. My reasons for this are:

4. He shouldn't be starting, i'd have corbs and Cole. But he brings a lot more across the pitch then either of those two.

Slight contradiction?

Not at all.

He should be in the England squad. He probably shouldn't be starting, although i'd be happy with him in the Saxons otherwise.

The question was "should he start loosehead against Scotland" not " should he be on the bench"

I dont think anyone would object to him being inthe squad, but theres not many of us who support him as a starter. The idea of having him as an impact sub has possibility but is risky ...especially since that would leave no cover for Cole on TH.

It is probably me being one eyed, but whenever I see the Quins scrum in trouble, it looks to me that it is down to the tighthead. Marler has often had an underpowered second row behind him when Kohn has been out injured too.

I'd have the lad in the squad, lets face it... He WILL be an England starter at some point in the not too distant future.

My first requirement for a prop is they have to be able to scrummage.

+1. You start conceding penalties in the scrum (especially in Feb when the weather is dire and handling errors happen) then you are giving free shots/territory to the opposition.

Currently there are three English looseheads above him in the pecking order (to my mind anyway) and all have been capped. They are;

Sheridan - showed his class at the RWC and we really missed him when he got injured.

Corbisiero - showed a much improved scrummaging style at the RWC but could maybe do a little more in the loose. Very promising from the young man and he should be initial possession of the shirt.

Mullan - can scrummage very well (see him holding Murray in the Wuss vs Falcs game last month) but is also a dab hand in the loose. Would be my choice to start but for his continuing shoulder issues. Needs to get that shoulder right and he could be a good international.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I originally thought no.

Then I went with yes, and I really think we must. My reasons for this are:

4. He shouldn't be starting, i'd have corbs and Cole. But he brings a lot more across the pitch then either of those two.

Slight contradiction?

Not at all.

He should be in the England squad. He probably shouldn't be starting, although i'd be happy with him in the Saxons otherwise.

The question was "should he start loosehead against Scotland" not " should he be on the bench"

I dont think anyone would object to him being inthe squad, but theres not many of us who support him as a starter. The idea of having him as an impact sub has possibility but is risky ...especially since that would leave no cover for Cole on TH.

It's not a risk if Corbisiero is the starting loosehead, as he can play tighthead as well and shoudl Cole be injured wouldn't have a problem swapping sides.

Voted NO.

Reason 1: You must be able to provide a stable platform at the scrum to win your own ball.

Reason 2: You must be able to provide a stable platform at the scrum to win your own ball.

Anything after that is a bonus.

Marler is good around the park as many modern props are these days but at international level he will get munched and it will be a penalty fest.

I'd rather take Budgie.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I originally thought no.

Then I went with yes, and I really think we must. My reasons for this are:

4. He shouldn't be starting, i'd have corbs and Cole. But he brings a lot more across the pitch then either of those two.

Slight contradiction?

Not at all.

He should be in the England squad. He probably shouldn't be starting, although i'd be happy with him in the Saxons otherwise.

The question was "should he start loosehead against Scotland" not " should he be on the bench"

I dont think anyone would object to him being inthe squad, but theres not many of us who support him as a starter. The idea of having him as an impact sub has possibility but is risky ...especially since that would leave no cover for Cole on TH.

It's not a risk if Corbisiero is the starting loosehead, as he can play tighthead as well and shoudl Cole be injured wouldn't have a problem swapping sides.

True.

Corbisiero is pretty much a must for the 22 isnt he!

I'm not sure I'd like Corbs at TH, saw him there last season and he didn't fare to well. Think it would be better for him to specialise at LH and then bring one of PDJ or Wilson onto the bench as they are both specialist THs that can cover LH.

Each time I watch this lad I'm impressed but I think at international level you can't have a prop weak in the set piece.

Give him time, props need longer than a top claret to mature. I don't think England should rush him in.

Get him in. Give him some time with Roundtree, give him twenty minutes or so off the bench.

I'm with you Metal, Budgie for England!

This six nations should be all about blooding youth and potential world class players - Marler falls into that category.

His scrummaging has also majorly improved this season. He has won a number of penalties, and the problems with Quins at scrum time usually comes from the tighthead James Johnstone.

Marler probably isn't doing a terrible job as Quins do lie at the top of the league, whilst the lock combo of Robson and Vallejos isn't the most powerful at scrum time.

If anything this poll has convinced me 100% Marler should start for England at loosehead against Scotland. I'm not convinced by Cole on the tighthead though.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'm not sure I'd like Corbs at TH, saw him there last season and he didn't fare to well. Think it would be better for him to specialise at LH and then bring one of PDJ or Wilson onto the bench as they are both specialist THs that can cover LH.

Corbs is a better TH than either PDJ or Wilson are looseheads. To be perfectly honest, Corbs is a better TH than Wilson is also. I am not quite sure how Wilson has been anywhere near the national team. He is an average AP player at best.

Just think a couple of years ago Tim Payne was first choice at loosehead prop due to the injury of Andrew Sheridan.

Payne was an average scrummager, a useless ball player, unfit, couldn't tackle.

Just think how lucky England are, we have the luxury of choosing between two very promising looseheads in Corbisiero and Marler, whilst the young Lahiff at London Irish, also looks a highly promising player, I wonder if he will make the switch to tighthead.

Lahiff played TH against Gloucester earlier this year as we only had 1 no fit TH's available. Sadly he got absolutely smashed in the scrum.

Still young though, so could possibly make the switch, but would need an awful lot of work there to get up to speed.

England had some real injury problems at prop over the last few years on both sides to be fair (compounded by Stevens ban). Its not that long ago that Bell was last capped.

For me the current pecking order for England props should be.

1. Corbisiero, Wood, Mullan, Marler

3. Cole, Doran-Jones, Stevens, Wilson

More of an issue for England is who packs down in between them. I have been a big supporter of Hartley for a few years now, but he has not yet hit the level that I hoped he would. The other potential candidates, Lee Mears, David Paice, Joe Gray and Rob Webber all have various negatives about their play at the present, and I would not say any of them are what you would call a top scrummaging hooker. This is more of a worry for me than who plays in the prop positions where we have plenty of decent enough options.

Joe Gray and Chris Brooker.

Gray is quality in the tight and loose. Quins have one of the best line outs in the prem, a large part down to him. He is almost Britsesq at times ball in hand.

Brooker is pretty much a like for like replacement of him, just lacking a bit of gas.

Talking of Brits, Saracens have the talented youngster who played in the HFH game coming through slowly as well.

You mean George....theres also Lindsay at Wasps...who looks a monster of a lad....

He means Spurling, who has succeeded George at England underage level.

The point still remains that at present none of the players mentioned would fill me with a huge amount of confident at international, particularly against one of the big SH sides.

This six nations should be all about blooding youth and potential world class players - Marler falls into that category

No it's a serious competition England should be trying to win. The Saxons is there to blood players and prepare them for the step up and the summer tour is there as a friendly competition to introduce players. The 6N is NOT and will NEVER be a set of friendlies and should NEVER be taken as such. I know too many gloating Irishmen as it is and my Welsh friends are getting bad as well.

Voted no. Although I don’t think our props should be able to bully ever opposition scrum going I also don’t want them to give away countless penulties either, and against top international tightheads (potentially Jones, Mas, Murray, Castro & Ross) then that’s what could happen. Saxons for me and behind Corbs, Mullen (if fit) and Wood before the first team.

Can’t understand why but Wood has never seemed in favour with England and seeing as Rowntree must have had some say in that then I can’t see it changing any time soon. Shame, thought he looked good again at the weekend.

Been impressed this year with PDJ and think he has moved in front of Wilson as being able to cover both sides of the scrum (he started the season at LH at Saints without problem and has also started at TH recently).

If fit my 5 props for the EPS would be

Corbs, Mullen, Cole, Stevens, PDJ. Back up Wood, Marler & Wilson

formerly known as Sam wrote:

This six nations should be all about blooding youth and potential world class players - Marler falls into that category

No it's a serious competition England should be trying to win. The Saxons is there to blood players and prepare them for the step up and the summer tour is there as a friendly competition to introduce players. The 6N is NOT and will NEVER be a set of friendlies and should NEVER be taken as such. I know too many gloating Irishmen as it is and my Welsh friends are getting bad as well.

Agree 100% 'formerly known as Sam'

formerly known as Sam wrote:

This six nations should be all about blooding youth and potential world class players - Marler falls into that category

No it's a serious competition England should be trying to win. The Saxons is there to blood players and prepare them for the step up and the summer tour is there as a friendly competition to introduce players. The 6N is NOT and will NEVER be a set of friendlies and should NEVER be taken as such. I know too many gloating Irishmen as it is and my Welsh friends are getting bad as well.

Couldnt agree more.
If the 6 Ns isnt a serious competition are we saying that we only have proper tests once every 4 years, most of which are against pathetic opposition.
If so Ill stick to club rugby.

The Saxons, age group, and to some extent some tour sides are for the kids to prove they are worth playing for the senior side. Till they have done that the EPS is off limits, its for the guys who actually are the best. If we start jettisoning people just for being 25 half these wonder kids wont even make the next world cup squad anyway.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Lahiff played TH against Gloucester earlier this year as we only had 1 no fit TH's available. Sadly he got absolutely smashed in the scrum.

That is because he was playing against Nick Wood. Unfortunately Woody doesn't have a stupid haircut, he can't rap, I've not seen him do many dummies or drop goals, all essential requirements for a prop.

He is an outstanding prop and by far and away the best scrummaging English loosehead we have. If the set piece is not solid you're not going to win anything and Woody's technique is spot on. In Hayman's hey day at Falcons he was quoted as saying the prop that caused the most trouble was Woody, which is not a bad referral. More relevantly, his form this season has been outstanding - the rest of Glaws has been questionnable, and if everyone were playing like him we'd be unbeaten!!

Of course there will be claims of my natural bias, but on a Gloucester front I'd rather he stayed with us than lose him! But, this guy deserves to be England's no.1 and he must be given a chance on form alone.

Marler a big no, his scrummaging is just not up to standard.

More worrying has been the form of Corbisero, he's been taking some serious pastings in the scrum lately and looks well short of previous form.

The form LH's in the prem have been Mullen & Wood for me. Wood offers little around the park but Mullen offers plenty.

I'd look to start with Corbs and look to bring Mullen in if he doesn't pick up his form....with Wood on standby.

How are people judging his scrummaging? As already mentioned the biggest problem with the Quins' scrum comes from tighthead (regardless of who's playing). When they struggled against Wasps it was due to the lack of power in the second row. In that case he was able to keep it up enough for the Quins to turn Wasps scrum dominance on their try line into a Quins penalty. Not that many penalties come from Marler's side. Also when he played for the Saxons he was on top in every scrum.

I don't get to see that many Quins games as they're not all televised and so I'll assume that there's something I'm missing.

The pundits who are suggesting he be capped against Scotland in the opener must be absolutely barking mad, a front row scrap against Scotland is not the place to start an international career.

That's not a slight on his ability but on his experience.

One for the future but not for a starting berth against Scotland.

What pastings has Corbs taken in scrums other than against Castro Pooly?

... and who hasn't Castro pasted?

Nearly everytime I've seem him Pete, looks well out of sorts. Watched the game 2/3 weeks back and he was getting pinged at every scrum, just kept crumbling under the hit. Can't recall the opposition but it wasn't Leicester?!?!

I do like Corbs but I don't think he's the strongest scrummager about. I think Mullen may overtake him given a good season at prem level.

I think it was Sarries.....possibly Nieto?

PJHolybloke

TBH there aren't many front rows that are easy pickings for your first cap
Wales...a monster lions front row
French..best front row in the world ?
Italy....best front row in the world ?
Scotland....not easy by any means
Ireland....maybe start against Ireland then

Nieto got 2 penalties given against Corbs, both times whilst being bound on the arm. The only TH who has given him a pasting this season is Castro, who completely outclassed him. We only gained any sort of parity in the scrum in that game when both Castro and Corbs went off, and Cole and Lahiff came one, and for some reason Cole kept on going to ground.

Corbs has not been at his dynamic best since returning form the world cup, that I will concede, but nobody has given him a pasting other than above, and he has at least gained parity in the scrum and been ahead more times than not.

The half I seen Neito gave him a seeing too Pete, Corbs really struggled against him.

We'll have to agree to disagree Pooly. As I say Nieto picked up a couple of dubious penalties, I wouldn't call that a pasting, and overall I think it was roughly even Stevens, maybe Nieto marginally ahead, but no shame in that and certainly not a pasting.

What I remember Corbs went to ground numerous times and struggled with the hit. To be fair Irish are not a big scrummaging unit so he may have been compensating for Buckland/Ion.

Just thought he looked off the pace this season, Mullan has impressed me more

sirtidychris wrote:PJHolybloke

TBH there aren't many front rows that are easy pickings for your first cap
Wales...a monster lions front row
French..best front row in the world ?
Italy....best front row in the world ?
Scotland....not easy by any means
Ireland....maybe start against Ireland then

Ireland it is then... or maybe not? I reckon the last 10-20 minutes for your first cap at prop is plenty, a potential alternative is to get pumped round the park for 40 minutes and suffer the shame of being hooked off at halftime. I know which I'd prefer.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Nieto got 2 penalties given against Corbs, both times whilst being bound on the arm. The only TH who has given him a pasting this season is Castro, who completely outclassed him. We only gained any sort of parity in the scrum in that game when both Castro and Corbs went off, and Cole and Lahiff came one, and for some reason Cole kept on going to ground.

Corbs has not been at his dynamic best since returning form the world cup, that I will concede, but nobody has given him a pasting other than above, and he has at least gained parity in the scrum and been ahead more times than not.

As has been pointed out (in the defences of Marler) if the tighthead is struggling the LH can look bad - and vice versa. The biggest difference in that game, I felt, was Rautenbach replacing Ion. Instantly the LI front row was more stable.