Blueprint to beat the Klitschkos

I can't really say how I know for risk of losing my source, but I know that fairly recently a pro boxer frequented this board and spoke about something on here, so I thought that it might be a good idea to ask this question, if other boxers were to come here.

Seeing how they're each different in the way they box and knowing how in depth you guys know boxing, what do you see as being the ways to beat each Wladimir and Vitali? They say each time that people start with a game plan and it comes unstuck the minute they get hit - is their power really that much to behold? I feel that David Haye met the very best version of Wlad that we've seen - he was almost perfect on the night, with very few mistakes and nothing for Haye to capitalise on - inside he's strong and heavy, on the outside he has that jab and tremendous power - so how can he be beaten? You guys will know, or have a strong idea.

Vitali is a different animal, he's much faster in closing people down, he doesn't mind getting hit and in my opinion has the hardest punch in boxing that we've seen for a long time. Lennox Lewis at his worst managed to beat him, yes - however he really was ahead on the scorecards when it was stopped and showed some incredible spirit to try and carry on when he knew full well he could have done permanent damage. How is he beatable? His size and power is such that its near impossible to bully him, boxing on the outside is difficult to give that power to un-nerve him, inside you're against one of the best people at taking a few to unleash a big inside hook, and those arms make him difficult to hit - so again - how can he be beaten by a current heavyweight?

Wlad is pretty basic i think: Have to pressure him onto the back foot and get inside the jab. He doesn't do going backwards well and out of the two is the most beatable.

Out of the current heavies Arreola stands the best chance of beating him.

Vitali: Be extremely athletic and have a granite chin as you'd need one. Punches from random angles, darting in and out of range. Or match him for size and simply try to outwork him.

Out of the current heavies no-one beats him.

Id back many of the bigger elite heavyweights like Lewis, Holmes and Bowe to beat the pair with relative comfort, would be interested to see how Wlad copes against fighters who can outjab him. Then you've got your skillful fighters like Louis and Ali who outbox the pair, the speed of Ali would be far too much for either while the accuracy and power of Louis would put them in their shell.

Against Wlad the smaller swarmers would smother him, make him uncomfortable and beat him up up close, against Vitali it's not as easy to do but neither brother are that good inside. Lewis who is far from an accomplished infighter was getting the better of Vitali up close.

Think with Wlad the key is pressure, whilst he has obviously developed a style that is damned effective I am still not convinced he really cares for fighting in any kind of rough house brawl sense of the word, does not tend to throw anything beyond jab and straight right and do get the impression he throws punches to avoid the other guy launching an offence rather than causing damage himself, think that is just something of a by product.

Think if someone can swarm him, get close enough to make it a bit rough Wlad could still crumble mentally, however as you have alluded to is far easier said than done. Would take massive physical strength though because as you say in close Wlad is just going to tie up and an opponent needs to extricate himself from that and make Wlad fight in close, tough ask.

Many feel that was the use of the head though, something that now Boxers - at least heavyweights are scrutinised much closer for. Not too sure about Bowe beating Vitali, perhaps Wlad but Bowe I feel wouldn't have had the power to Put Vitali away. Lennox would have finished Vitali in 8/9 I feel, and Holmes would have probably pushed Vitali to being tired in the later rounds. Ali would have beaten them both with relative ease, but thats my bias because I'm a big fan.

I'm not sure smaller swarmers would be very effective, as he's so good at keeping people at range. I think perhaps a big strong pressure fighter who doesn't mind walking forward but with a strong defense would be better than someone who gets inside and throws punches, as their mobility will be very limited by Wlads size. I think size beats Wlad and work-rate beats Vitali, personally but you guys are the experts

coxy0001 wrote:Wlad is pretty basic i think: Have to pressure him onto the back foot and get inside the jab. He doesn't do going backwards well and out of the two is the most beatable.

Out of the current heavies Arreola stands the best chance of beating him.

Vitali: Be extremely athletic and have a granite chin as you'd need one. Punches from random angles, darting in and out of range. Or match him for size and simply try to outwork him.

Out of the current heavies no-one beats him.

Based on what? beating bums yet this the same guy that got beat by Adamek...Haye has the best chance and we all know how that fight went.

As for Vitali I would think a Solis in shape and Haye have a good chance of beating him...Wladimir wipes the floor with his brother at this stage of their careers.

Swarmers would be an absolute nightmare for Wlad, don't think he copes very well with having a Dempsey, Tyson or Frazier style fighter jumping on him throwing combinations with power. Bowe is a wasted talent but if the version who beat Holyfield turns up then he's going to be far too good for either brother, he'd beat them at range with a superior jab and dominate the close engages.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Id back many of the bigger elite heavyweights like Lewis, Holmes and Bowe to beat the pair with relative comfort, would be interested to see how Wlad copes against fighters who can outjab him. Then you've got your skillful fighters like Louis and Ali who outbox the pair, the speed of Ali would be far too much for either while the accuracy and power of Louis would put them in their shell.

Against Wlad the smaller swarmers would smother him, make him uncomfortable and beat him up up close, against Vitali it's not as easy to do but neither brother are that good inside. Lewis who is far from an accomplished infighter was getting the better of Vitali up close.

Vitali laughs at Bowe in my opinion.

A hard punching swarmer beats Wlad. Tyson could do it in under a minute. Wlad is really limited, but has the perfect style for his strengths and today's heavies.

I also think Vitali is vulnerable to a swarmer, but he is obviously more durable and it would take longer.

Also Vitali is open to looping overhand punches - see Byrd fight. He defends by leaning his head back and sticking his arms out. A committed, come forward fighter with a good overhand right and leaping left hook could do it. There are none at the moment.

I'm going to say this once so pay attention. I agree with everything Ghosty said. Now I'm gointg to hit my head on a brick wall to wake up.

azania wrote:I'm going to say this once so pay attention. I agree with everything Ghosty said. Now I'm gointg to hit my head on a brick wall to wake up.

Hope the wall isn't a load bearing one.

coxy0001 wrote:Wlad is pretty basic i think: Have to pressure him onto the back foot and get inside the jab. He doesn't do going backwards well and out of the two is the most beatable.

Out of the current heavies Arreola stands the best chance of beating him.

Vitali: Be extremely athletic and have a granite chin as you'd need one. Punches from random angles, darting in and out of range. Or match him for size and simply try to outwork him.

Out of the current heavies no-one beats him.

This jhas to be a joke right?

Wlad beat Vit everyday except sunday.

Thank you windy

I dont think there has ever been an established blue print to beat either brother. There are various theoroes which sound easy on paper but are hard to implament practically.

The talent gap I think is too big at the moment, and has been for year, for a fighter out there to overcome the differences in size, skill and technique with a gameplan. The older Vitali gets obviously the more vunerable he wil become. But of the current crop Solis would be my choice by a fair distance as having the best chance to beat either brother just fighting his natural game.

I think the blueprint to beat them depends on what you are working with. Nobody out there at the moment has enough natural resources to beat them but if you are a Holmes or a Tyson then I think you just got to fight your natural fight and try and impose yourself and your style on the fight and hope that your talent and style is superior. I wouldnt make any drastic alterations as those guys did their own style as good as any fighter in history. If it turned out that Holmes for example, was getting outjabbed by Wlad then obviously you will have to try something different and stop boxing and start brawling/pressuring.

Most fighters/coaches will say the same thing about the brothers which is you alot of head movement, try get inside the jab, try to wait for an opening but there just arent any fighters out there with the ability to pull it off successfully.

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Wlad is pretty basic i think: Have to pressure him onto the back foot and get inside the jab. He doesn't do going backwards well and out of the two is the most beatable.

Out of the current heavies Arreola stands the best chance of beating him.

Vitali: Be extremely athletic and have a granite chin as you'd need one. Punches from random angles, darting in and out of range. Or match him for size and simply try to outwork him.

Out of the current heavies no-one beats him.

Based on what? beating bums yet this the same guy that got beat by Adamek...Haye has the best chance and we all know how that fight went.

As for Vitali I would think a Solis in shape and Haye have a good chance of beating him...Wladimir wipes the floor with his brother at this stage of their careers.

Based on style, that's what.

Adamek is a pure boxer who can fight going backwards. Wlad, in my opinion, doesn't like pressure and doesn't fight well going backwards.

For me Arreola can be outboxed, but he'd be able to pour enough pressure on Wlad to get to him in my opinion. Against Vitali he didn't have the skills and took a beating from a guy who teed off on him, Adamek had the speed to make him miss and counter. Wlad on the other hand would be forced to fight a different kind of fight at a pace i'm not sure he's comfortable at, he couldn't rely on jab jab jab right cross against Arreola as by the 2nd jab Arreola would be swarming him. Against Vitali he ate power shots instead of jabs and paid a price, against the less aggressive Wlad he'd be able to really push the pace without fear of Wlad actually winging in big monster punches as he doesn't do jack when going backwards.

Just because A beats B and B beats C doesn't mean A beats C, otherwise Frazier would've never had a chance against Ali after he'd dispatched Foreman.

Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

Waingro wrote:Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

Would that be turn up out of shape and hope you open up a cut?

Waingro wrote:Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

Vitali also took that fight in 2 weeks notice.

Wlad is a better boxer than Vitali by a stretch. Areola would eat jab all night waiting for the right to land. Wlad is also a far superior boxer that Adamek. He controls range better and forces his opponents to fight his fight and negates their strengths with his jab.

trottb wrote:

Waingro wrote:Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

Would that be turn up out of shape and hope you open up a cut?

I much prefer Chirs Byrd's method, stick in there and hope he knacks a shoulder.

truth is the only boxers big enough to beat them at the mo either lack the talent or the effort to get fit. the fighters with the right styles are all too small. which all equates to them continuing their dominance. fair play though!

I think plenty of history's top heavyweights would simply have to do what they do best, and it would be the Klistchko's who'd struggle to find an applicable gameplan.

Vitali fairs better against swarmers, given his chin and ability to fight, but with his sluggish feet he can surely be outboxed and beaten by a jab of superior timing, such as Liston/Ali/Louis/Holmes.

Wlad's the opposite, a strong combo punching swarmer puts him on the backfoot and runs him over. But a boxer would have a harder job. Of the current guys, an in shape Solis could give Vitali some problems and I agree with Arreola having as a chance as anybody against Wlad.

rowley wrote:

trottb wrote:

Waingro wrote:Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

Would that be turn up out of shape and hope you open up a cut?

I much prefer Chirs Byrd's method, stick in there and hope he knacks a shoulder.

Vitali got injured by Byrd but he was destroying him in that fight Byrd is not in his class. Lewis was a much better fighter than Byrd far more quality and skill he smashed Vitali up look at the guys face it was a mess that shows how Lewis was dominating him. Vitali had a good second round he hurt Lewis with a good shot but Lewis took his power and showed his chin and heart and started bashing up Vitali after that with huge uppercuts and power punches. Vitali was lucky the fight got stopped imo Lewis was about to knock him out and that cut might have ruined his career. Vitali is a great boxer but Lewis is the second best heavyweight of all time and has far too much quality for Vitali. Lets not forget Lewis did not train properly for this fight either he had only a couple of weeks to prepare and was not taking it seriously imagine if he was at his best the fight would be over quickly like it was against Golota or Ruddock this is why there was no point in a rematch Lewis had smashed him up and was not at his best he knew that if he trained properly and was at his best he would win again comfortably so what was the point?

Waingro wrote:Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

if lewis took the fight at short notic then so did klitschko.... common sense.

Klitschko was ahead of that fight by 4 rounds to 2. Even in the rounds he lost he landed more punches and more power punhes. Only reason you say he got smashed is beause of a cut. hrdly a great victory for lewis that he won because vitali got a cut on his eyebrow.

lovely_london wrote:

Waingro wrote:Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

if lewis took the fight at short notic then so did klitschko.... common sense.

Klitschko was ahead of that fight by 4 rounds to 2. Even in the rounds he lost he landed more punches and more power punhes. Only reason you say he got smashed is beause of a cut. hrdly a great victory for lewis that he won because vitali got a cut on his eyebrow.

I suggest you watch the fight again...There was more than one cut in that fight on Vitali's face and was out on his feet at the end of the 6th round.

Lewis was past his best yet still beat a prime Vitali - GREAT WIN

I guess you dont count Vitali's win over Hide as it was 1-0 to Hide before the fight was stopped.

lovely_london wrote:

Waingro wrote:Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

if lewis took the fight at short notic then so did klitschko.... common sense.

Klitschko was ahead of that fight by 4 rounds to 2. Even in the rounds he lost he landed more punches and more power punhes. Only reason you say he got smashed is beause of a cut. hrdly a great victory for lewis that he won because vitali got a cut on his eyebrow.

Mate did you see Vitalis face!?? It looked like he had been slashed with a knife Lewis was completely bashing him up! Vitali did ok in a few rounds but tbh he was not it Lewis class Lewis had too much quality for him Vitali had no defence he was getting smashed the cuts on his face show how Lewis was smashing him up. Vitali was lucky the fight was stopped before he got knocked out or took more punishment Lewis was starting to destroy him. And lets remember Lewis himself said he was at his worst that night if that was Lewis at his worst then imagine what he would be like at his best! The fight would be over quickly Lewis knew this and he was getting old so what was the point he may aswell retire and enjoy his life after boxing.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Id back many of the bigger elite heavyweights like Lewis, Holmes and Bowe to beat the pair with relative comfort, would be interested to see how Wlad copes against fighters who can outjab him. Then you've got your skillful fighters like Louis and Ali who outbox the pair, the speed of Ali would be far too much for either while the accuracy and power of Louis would put them in their shell.

Against Wlad the smaller swarmers would smother him, make him uncomfortable and beat him up up close, against Vitali it's not as easy to do but neither brother are that good inside. Lewis who is far from an accomplished infighter was getting the better of Vitali up close.

Vitali laughs at Bowe in my opinion.

He may laugh at him while he's been outboxed round after round but I can't envisage a fighter of Vitalis calibre beating the Bowe who faced Holyfield, you could end up having an ill prepared out of shape Bowe turn up but at his best he beats the pair with ease.

Bowe beats Vitali with relative comfort

Someone been eaten something funny, either that or have a spiteful disdain towards the Klitschkos. Knowing the "author" probably the latter.

I fail to see how an overrated, often out of shape Riddick Bowe, the one who was given hell on two occassions by the mediocre Andrew Golota deals with Vitali Klitschko with ease.

Super D Boon wrote:Bowe beats Vitali with relative comfort

Someone been eaten something funny, either that or have a spiteful disdain towards the Klitschkos. Knowing the "author" probably the latter.

I fail to see how an overrated, often out of shape Riddick Bowe, the one who was given hell on two occassions by the mediocre Andrew Golota deals with Vitali Klitschko with ease.

Totally agree...I think Bowe would win but it sure as hell won't be easy...It is laughable to suggest he beats both brother's easy.

I'm not even sure he wins at prime weight to be honest, given his lack of heart on many occassions. Golota showed him up a bit I thought. Did he not effectively retire after those fights?

He was finished by then anyway. At his best he was something else. A top fighter on the inside and outside with a solid chin, heavy hands and he could fight on the outside or inside at a high workrate. Far more complete boxer than either Klitchko in my opinion.

Bowe was not a proper champ he threw his belt away instead of fighting Lewis who had earned his shot this guy would not beat the Klichkos he would not have fought them unless it was for a payday.

My mistake.

Super D Boon wrote:I'm not even sure he wins at prime weight to be honest, given his lack of heart on many occassions. Golota showed him up a bit I thought. Did he not effectively retire after those fights?

If we're using Golota against Bowe then why not bring up Purrity, Sanders or Brewster for Wlad? We could also point out that in beating Holyfield that Bowe proved he could beat a genuinely great heavyweight, have either brother done such a thing?

Problem for the pair against Bowe would be coming up against a fighter with a superior jab and a masterful inside game, he would beat them on the outside and with comfort on the inside. The worst of Bowe beats the worst of either brother while the best of him beats the best of them even easier, how would either beat an on fire Riddick Bowe may I ask?

Super D Boon wrote:I'm not even sure he wins at prime weight to be honest, given his lack of heart on many occassions. Golota showed him up a bit I thought. Did he not effectively retire after those fights?

On the contrary. The Golota fight showed that he had a lot of heart. You dont take such a beating and keep coming back if you dont have heart. What the Golota fight showed was his love of fried chicken in the build up to fights.

Waingro wrote:Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

I've watched this fight so many times and to me it looks like Lewis is on his way to the floor in round 2 and just survives. Lewis then knows he's on the verge of being knocked out early, throws a huge haymaker which lands opening the cut which was terrible and knocking Vitali off his stride. If's and buts of course if that punch doesnt land imo Lennox is in deep trouble.

JabMachine wrote:

Vitali is a different animal, he's much faster in closing people down, he doesn't mind getting hit and in my opinion has the hardest punch in boxing that we've seen for a long time. L

I've never really bought this, Vitali is a strong consistent, puncher but has nothing like as much one punch power as his brother. Imo if Wladimir had a better chin he would have knocked out all of his opponents, the way he downed Mercer for example in round 1 when Lewis and Holyfields punches just bounced off him was really impressive. Ever since Sander's Wlad's been mega defensive, doesn't really sit on his right hand except when he put Brock to sleep.

monty junior wrote:

Waingro wrote:Mate just ask Lewis he smashed Vitali up when they fought he was not even at his best and took the fight on short notice. The Klichkos are good but they are not in Lewis class he showed how to beat them.

I've watched this fight so many times and to me it looks like Lewis is on his way to the floor in round 2 and just survives. Lewis then knows he's on the verge of being knocked out early, throws a huge haymaker which lands opening the cut which was terrible and knocking Vitali off his stride. If's and buts of course if that punch doesnt land imo Lennox is in deep trouble.

That's nothing - imagine if NONE if his punches had landed for his entire career !!!! He'd be in serious trouble.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:I'm not even sure he wins at prime weight to be honest, given his lack of heart on many occassions. Golota showed him up a bit I thought. Did he not effectively retire after those fights?

If we're using Golota against Bowe then why not bring up Purrity, Sanders or Brewster for Wlad? We could also point out that in beating Holyfield that Bowe proved he could beat a genuinely great heavyweight, have either brother done such a thing?

Problem for the pair against Bowe would be coming up against a fighter with a superior jab and a masterful inside game, he would beat them on the outside and with comfort on the inside. The worst of Bowe beats the worst of either brother while the best of him beats the best of them even easier, how would either beat an on fire Riddick Bowe may I ask?

I think of K bros with their fine abilities to judge range, their huge workrate and obvious power and strength, I then can't see how the best and worst of Bowe beats the best and worst of K bros with comfort. Bowe at his best was hardly a workaholic in the ring. I can't see it how a "prime" or even fat Riddick Bowe clearly beats both brothers. Can't see it, especially as it's near impossible to measure Bowe's prime as he so often came in overweight. Besides Bowe took an almighty pasting on two occassions against a fighter I don't see troubling either K bro.

K's huge workrate?

The only fast paced fight I've seen Vitali was Lewis and he was gassing badly. Bowe had a serious way with Holyfield and out endured Evander for a 12 round classic. No way they have better workrate in my opinion.

VK has the record for most punches thrown in a Heavyweight fight (since Compubox measuring). So no problems with workrate. Vitali in one of his longer fights regularly throws around the 700 mark so no problems with workrate. His brother probably throws a little less but again, neither are exactly lazy.

Vitali hits harder than Wladimir on a consistent basis.

Wlad has a bigger right, but very rarely uses it.

Wlad's jab is much harder, Vitali's is more like a paw to get the opponent in range. Wlad's left hook is also devestating when he chooses to use it (which is nowhere near enough). Vitali basically beats guys up with an accumulation of punches, Wlad if he open's up can put guys on the floor in a couple of punches but due to his dodgy chin doesn't have the confidence to do it enough.

Super D Boon wrote:VK has the record for most punches thrown in a Heavyweight fight (since Compubox measuring). So no problems with workrate. Vitali in one of his longer fights regularly throws around the 700 mark so no problems with workrate. His brother probably throws a little less but again, neither are exactly lazy.

I don't see comoubox as being a reliable judge. Wasn't it against Kevin Johnson he broke the record? In that fight he wasn't throwing full punches, they were largely arm punches and he was taking nothing in return. That isn't a test of one's workrate in a competetive fight.

Super D Boon wrote:VK has the record for most punches thrown in a Heavyweight fight (since Compubox measuring). So no problems with workrate. Vitali in one of his longer fights regularly throws around the 700 mark so no problems with workrate. His brother probably throws a little less but again, neither are exactly lazy.

Are you sure about that? Didn't Ibeabuchi vs Tua fight set the record? They each threw over 100 punches per round.

first and foremost you probably need size, no matter how good a 5,11 fighter is he's giving away too much against the K brothers. only the likes of tyson et al stood a chance and thats mainly wlad getting hurt and getting him out of there. vitali alot more difficult, said on previous fantasy fight thread that i think vitali beats most of the atg small heavies.

size and power gives you a great chance against wlad, although with his improved technique you still need to be able to slip the jab and get on the inside to hurt him.

size and a top class jab would trouble vitali, lewis and holmes beat him more often than not for me. if you havnt got size against him then your going to need execellent speed and a chin of iron (certain mr ali springs to mind)

Boon i'll put it another way, what does either brother do better than the version of Riddick Bowe who beat Holyfield?