Does martinez have a legitimate claim to be p4p #1

Does Sergio Martinez have a claim to be pound for pound #1?

Now before the onslaught of Pacquiao fans come and slam this post lets look at the facts.

Martinez last 3 opponents

Sergei Dzinzurik - (best light middleweight moving up)
Paul Williams - (self proclaimed most avoided man in boxing)
Kelly Pavlik - (recently schooled by the wily old fox Hopkins but still the man at middleweight).

Pacquiao

Antonio Margarito - (Coming off a year lay off after a royal beating from Mosley).
Joshua Clottey (No more than a sparing session in which he got hit a lot).
Miguel Cotto (Very good win but tainted slightly by the 145 catch weight).

I have no problems with manny as p4p number 1 after beating Hatton and Cotto, however his last two opponents could drop him in the standings in my opinion.

Now I believe Manny's true weight is actually light-welter and I don't think there is anyone in the division that will beat him there. He would also school Berto and beat Mosley. The only challenge out there is Floyd Mayweather who cannot fight at the moment. Therefore based on who Manny could potentially fight and who I think would win, I can see an argument for him being at the top of the p4p tree. However based on recent opponents and until these matches are made surely Sergio Martinez is more deserving of the spot?

Not #1, no, but definitely wouldn't look stupid if he put himself top three, with a decent argument for #2, and that's assuming we're including Mayweather based on skill and not activity.

It depends on your criteria I suppose.

If fighting quality opposition is the most important then yes, he is above Manny, but on talent he is not.

Martinez' last 3 wins are far better than Manny's.

I'm afraid Martinez doesn't come close to Mayweather or Pacquiao in P4P status, if we're doing a league style points system such as the ring then he may come close, if we're asking who's the best fighters out there at the moment regardless of ring activity then he falls short for me.

Well talent is one thing, using it is another. Surely the one who fights the best and beats them deserves it?

Form wise he's number one and would have a genuine claim if he got the decisions he deserved over Cintron and Williams. Ridiculously talented guy and such a shame he didn't make it big sooner, has the beating of everyone between 154-160lbs with some to spare.

He and donaire are the most in form fighters when you look at the opposition they are beating. Manny was red hot in '08 and '09 but clottey and a catchweight marg made for a weak 2010 for him. Meanwhile Martinez and Donaire have both KO'd p4p guys in montiel and williams, and are also beating other quality opponents such as sidorenko, pavlik and dzinzurek. Mayweather lack of activity counts against him, and given his succession of mediocre in-house top rank opponents manny remians there on past achievements and activity. If you were rating them in terms of pure ability, I'd go

Mayweather
Pacquiao
Donaire
Martinez

But if we take things such as quality of opposition over the last year and activity into the equation it would be

Martinez
Donaire
Pacquiao
Mayweather

If you combine all the factors I would currently rate my p4p top 4 as

Pacquiao
Mayweather
Martinez
Donaire

If Mayweather doesnt announce a fight as soon as his court case is finished (assuming he isnt marched off to the big house) then he'd have to drop out altogether. You cant have a year inactive and still be ranked at no2. Or even no1 if you go on boxrec.

Careful, the resident nuthugger will be spitting his dummy out/crying/whinging as you can't mention the P4P #1 spot unless you're a Roach fighte or Pinoy.

For me it was a disgrace when Donaire snagged his #3 spot. Great win over Montiel but it doesn't quite compare to flattening PWill and then slapping Pavlik around. IMO anyway.

I dunno, if we're just talking about most recent fights then no, but demolishing Darchinyan did raise Donaire's stock and between that and Montiel, and Pavlik and Williams there's not much complaining whichever way you call it. Add Dzinziruk though and Martinez pips it on numbers, and that bit more so on recent oppoisition.

What a lot of nut-huggers forget is that between Darchinyan and Montiel Donaire fought seven good-not-great guys. But then again, I heard that Donaire works sundays at a kitten sanctuary, so...

Balti

Going on their last 3 opponents there's little comparison for me. Montiel and PWill you could probably call even, but Dzinzurik and Pavlik were better wins than Sydorenko and Harnan Marquez respectively. The latter being a massive waste of space when giving Donaire any kudos for winning that fight.

I'd have him #5 behind Manny, FMJ, Martinez and Marquez though. FMJ will drop out of the list should he not get his life sorted out and not get anything sorted (or at least make noises to fight) in terms of fighting etc.

Be interesting to see how he fares against the winner of the bantam tourney. Be fun fights against either Mares or Agbeko, be interesting to see if the latter can reproduce his slightly surprising performance, in terms of a boxing masterclass, against Perez.

coxy0001 wrote:Balti

Dzinzurik and Pavlik were better wins than Sydorenko and Harnan Marquez respectively. The latter being a massive waste of space when giving Donaire any kudos for winning that fight.

That's what I meant. Given that Darchinyan was 2007 he can't really be included in the equation. I can't believe I'd neglected to think about JMM in the mix.

I just think it's good that we can even have this sort of debate, a couple of years ago there were one or two truly great fighters now we've got 5 of them

Good point imperial

If Martinez goes north (and i think he should - Cotto although a name hasn't got huge amounts left, especially against a naturally much bigger guy, he'd get slapped around badly) and beats up on a 168lb player - someone like a Ward, then he'd be numero uno in my eyes.

Be interesting to see him rematch Williams though, the first fight was extremely close (i had PWill by a whisker) and the 2nd fight ended before it got going by 1 punch Pwill didn't see coming - there's nothing to say he wouldn't beat Martinez again or give him a damn good run for his money, wasn't like he tooking a battering for 8 rounds which would make a 3rd match a formality to predict etc

Not sure about him at 168. Is in the form of his life, but might be a bit small for the division.

sam

Agree he would be small, but there isn't much for him at 160 and i wouldn't want to see Cotto get walloped around as he's already been through 2 batterings, doesn't need a 3rd one which would be a sad conclusion to his career.

Someone like Kessler wouldn't be a bad shout, or maybe even Abraham although his stock has dropped due to Froch giving him a one sided whooping.

Be interesting to see what noises his camp make and where he wants to go though

There is no doubting his talent. I think his style and speed would give some of the bigger men trouble.

Not sure his power would translate though.

Perhaps he should try and off Lucian Bute; who in my opinion is one of the most over-rated fighters around today.

sam

Completely agree mate, quite how Bute is rated so highly is beyond me. Can't wait for the day he gets flattened, preferably by Froch

Yep, hope Froch beats him.

I think Martinez is so far ahead of everyone at Middleweight; he might have to look up or down the scale for a challenge.

Tend to agree how high Bute is rated grinds my gears. How a guy can let the cream of the division face off against here and stay on the outside beating the leftovers and make any claims to be the top man in the division is beyond me. Easy to keep winning when you rule yourself out of fighting the best in the division for a couple of years.

Agree completely.

He hasn't beaten anyone really. I think Froch and Ward both beat him handily.

Would love to see Martinez in with Mayweather, although it is unlikely to happen.

I think Abraham coming back down to middle weight would be an interesting fight for Martinez, I suspect he'd have to much movement of Abraham and not let him get his shots off but you never know. I think unfortunately Martinez will be retired before either James Kirkland or David Lemieux are ready to be fighting at championship level.

Kirkland is very limited in my opinion; but it might be fun whilst it lasts.

I wouldnt give Williams much hope in a rubber match with Martinez. Martinez has him figured out. He hd figured out by the end of the first fight and the second was the result. A third would also be a stoppage win for Martinez in the mid ronds I think.

Williams is just to easy to hit for a counter puncher like Martinez and once you get to grips with the long arms and swarming style then for a guy like Martinez there are just too many openings for Williams to succeed.

I would not be adverse to seing Cotto v Martinez at LMW. I dont think Martinez is a great deal bigger than Margarito and hes not as aggressive stylewise. It could be a good match up. If Martinez can make LMW then why not? If Cotto is going to campaign there then he should be willing to take on the best fighters there. If he thinks hes too small then go back to WW. I dont like the idea that Cotto is considered too small for someone who can be a legitimate LMW. If thats the case then he shouldnt be there in the first place.

I dont really think Martinez has any claim to the number 1 spot if I am being honest.

If you reflect on it, its really only 2010 and the start of 2011 that Martinez has really made the push.

In 2009 he was winless against Williams and Cintron and prior to that his record was good but not too many big names.

Hes come into his own now with some big wins but I think they are being blown up to an extent and when you consider the extensive resumes of Pacquiao, Mayweather and even Donaire then I find it impossible to consider Martinez a potential number 1.

Pacquaio and Mayweather remain some way clear of the pack despite recent fights (or lack thereof) meaning that Martinez had hands down the best 2010. Donaire thus far has had the best 2011.

I see it as a straight fight between Donaire and Martinez for 3rd spot but I give the edge to Donaire as I think hes younger, slightly more talented and has the better record overall. Wins over rivals Darchinyan, Concepcion and Montiel across three weights is more impressive than Martinez for me.

I agree Manos and would be happy to put him clear in 4th place behind Donaire.

Manos for a start, you need to get your facts right. Many people inc me thought he was robbed against williams in the first fight and cintron got knocked out and beaten up and still got a draw. Everyone inc the entire HBO team said it was a total robbery and a farce. So what you're saying is p4p is based on what some has done in the past? I don't think so.... you can't live on past victories, otherwise manny is never going to lose the spot if he keeps beating up shot fighters.

BoxingFan88 wrote:Manos for a start, you need to get your facts right. Many people inc me thought he was robbed against williams in the first fight and cintron got knocked out and beaten up and still got a draw. Everyone inc the entire HBO team said it was a total robbery and a farce. So what you're saying is p4p is based on what some has done in the past? I don't think so.... you can't live on past victories, otherwise manny is never going to lose the spot if he keeps beating up shot fighters.

No offence, but your going to look a bit silly telling someone to get their facts right when er, they are right. The FACTS are that in 2009 Martinez didnt record a win. You might think he beat Williams, but the judges didnt and they are the ones that matter.

The Williams fight wasnt a robbery. It was a close fight and could have gone either way.

The Cintron fight was bizzare. Cintron wasnt headbutted but he also beat the refs count and was fit to continue. Martinez is entitled to feel hard done by in that. It doesnt change the fact that the fight was scored a draw.

Obviously what a fighter has done in the past is relevant to their standings in p4p terms as its an indication of quality. Otherwise you drawing up a new list every month if you went off purely recent results and the lists would be nonsensical. P4P lists are subjective and include a range of elements.

I stand by my view that Martinez ranks number 4 on my list behind Pacquiao, Mayweather and Donaire. If Mayweather doesnt fight this year then its fair to say he could be removed entirely but it would be largely irrlevant as if he does return in the near future he would probably slot back into the number 2 spot on most lists as if he had never gone.

In the last two years Pacquiaos record is 4-0 over:

Margarito
Clottey
Cotto
Hatton

Martinez is 3 - 1 -1 over:

Dzinzurik
Williams
Pavlik
Wlliams
Cintron

Pacquiao as well as being the better fighter in overall terms also has an easily comparable record regardless of if you think Martinez was robbed (which by the way does not change the official results).

I go on what happened in the ring not what boxrec says. Margarito and and clottey combined do not match any of sergios opponents. Clottey was happy to collect the pay day. Margarito had just been annihilated by mosley. The point is he knocked williams out cold in the rematch which more than justifies what I said previously unless it was a "lucky punch"....

While Martinez has done well last year he is not been as impressive as Pacquiao.

While Martinez has stepped up a couple of weights, Pacquiao has stepped up 10 where he has started.

Martinez has dropped a fair few round over the last couple of years, Pacquiao has barely dropped a round.

Pacquiao is beating guys that outweigh him by a stone in the ring, Martinez is facing and beating smaller guys or the same size, Pavlik excluded.

I have Martinez number 3 behind Pacquiao and Donaire at the moment, but he very close to Donaire.

It is unfortunate for Martinez that he middleweight division is so lacking of talent at the moment.

I still don't get how you can rank donaire higher than martinez. Donaire has beaten one fighter Montiel which is a very good win but he hasn't faced any real competition until that point. Martinez has dropped rounds because he was fighting people who actually had a chance of beating him. I'll give you hatton and cotto because those are excellent wins but odl who looked like he was on his death bed and marg and clottey whos only chance was by knockout aren't really stand outs.

BoxingFan88 wrote:I go on what happened in the ring not what boxrec says. Margarito and and clottey combined do not match any of sergios opponents. Clottey was happy to collect the pay day. Margarito had just been annihilated by mosley. The point is he knocked williams out cold in the rematch which more than justifies what I said previously unless it was a "lucky punch"....

Sorry but no, not really. You are going off your own opinion which is debateable and doesnt change the outsome of fights. There are plenty of fights where I have disagreed with the judges outcome but I dont just go back rewriting history based on my personal view. The fact Martinez knocked Williams out in the second fight doesnt change anything about the first whch was a very close fight. It doesnt change it to Martinez won the first fight either. The two fights are seperate. I dont see how you come to the conclusion that because Martinez won the second fight he therefore must have won the first?

You seem to basing your entire pound for pound system on what happened on the basis of Martinez last 3 fights and are ignoring eveything else.

But he is the one who is proving who the best fighter is, by beating the best fighters available consistently. Otherwise pacquiao can beat up mosley who got whooped by mayweather and still be considered the best? If he fights people like bradley or marquez then he is proving he is the best but beating up shot fighters doesn't make you the p4p king imo, anyway good discussion but I think we shall agree to disagree.

Its dependant on how you measure pound for pound lists.

You obviously place a very high emphasis on recent results and very little on past results or perceived ability.

I wouldnt dispute that Pacquiaos last cuple of opponents have een disappointing. But it doesnt mean hes suddenly a worse fighter either.

I tend to use a mix of things in my list such as overall ability, past acheivement, recent results and so on. Once you get high up the list its fair to say its harder to drop out. Martinez had a much better 2010 to Pacquaio and was the fighter of the year for me. But in talent terms I rate Donaire, Pacquaio and Mayweather ahead. In acheivement terms I also rate those three ahead. On recent form I give the nod to Martinez but that alone isnt sufficient to oust the other 3 who I think are ahead in most other departments.

Fair enough, if pacquiao fights another shot fighter he has to drop out, thats 3 in a row so far.

I think it's impossible to have Martinez at number one, pound for pound rankings aren't based on a year in isolation they are the form of a boxer over many. I've previously said that if Martinez got the decisions he deserved over Cintron and Williams then that would change things but as things are he didn't. Donaire I feel is being rated more on his potential to do great things rather than his current record which although impressive doesn't stand up to that of Martinez, Mayweather or Marquez so based on that i've got him 5th. It should also be remembered that to win multiple titles in the lower divisions is a lot easier than at the Middleweight region.

Pacquiao
Mayweather
Martinez
Marquez
Donaire

Beyond that nobody really stands out

With the exception of Donaire none of them can improve too much on what they have already done and in my opinion the jump from 160lbs to 168lbs is huge in terms of talent. The one thing that Martinez has in his favour is the combined losses of his recent opposition, a mere 5 which considering he's won 3 and deserved the nod in the other 2 is very impressive.

Were Maragarito, Mosely, Cotto any more shot than Pavlik?

From what I remember Pavlik was hammered by Hopkins, became an alcoholic and then almost died due to an allergic reaction to some medicine.
He would fit the description of off the rails as much as anyone in boxing today.

Donaires wins over Darchinyan and Montiel are better than any of Martinez I think. Both of those guys had legit claims to be top 10 p4p fighters at the time. Not sure the same could be said for Dzinzurik or Pavlik. Williams might have had but they are 1-1 head to head regardless of if people felt Martinez should have got the nod in the first one.

A career is based on more than 2 wins and for me

Pavlik, Williams and Dzinziruk are overall better wins than Darchinyan, Sidorenko and Montiel, as far as pound for pound goes. We give Pacquiao massive kudos for beating bigger men something like Martinez did and not something Donaire. Despite the fact he's jumped weights he was bigger than both Darchinyan and Sidorenko.

Also find it strange how Marquez gets forgotten in all this when he has cleared out the Lightweight division beating Diaz, Casamayor and Katsidis, 3 men far bigger than he is.

imperialghosty wrote:A career is based on more than 2 wins and for me

Pavlik, Williams and Dzinziruk are overall better wins than Darchinyan, Sidorenko and Montiel, as far as pound for pound goes. We give Pacquiao massive kudos for beating bigger men something like Martinez did and not something Donaire. Despite the fact he's jumped weights he was bigger than both Darchinyan and Sidorenko.

Also find it strange how Marquez gets forgotten in all this when he has cleared out the Lightweight division beating Diaz, Casamayor and Katsidis, 3 men far bigger than he is.

Good point about JMM.

imperialghosty wrote:A career is based on more than 2 wins and for me

Pavlik, Williams and Dzinziruk are overall better wins than Darchinyan, Sidorenko and Montiel, as far as pound for pound goes. We give Pacquiao massive kudos for beating bigger men something like Martinez did and not something Donaire. Despite the fact he's jumped weights he was bigger than both Darchinyan and Sidorenko.

Also find it strange how Marquez gets forgotten in all this when he has cleared out the Lightweight division beating Diaz, Casamayor and Katsidis, 3 men far bigger than he is.

Id probably take Donaires wins myself as being better in pound for pound terms. Whilst he may not have had as good a 2010 as Martinez I think overall he has a better recent record. I also just feel hes a slightly better fighter overall especially as Martinez gets older.

I dont neccessarily write off Marquez, but given his age I feel the emphasis now for him being up there is alot to do with past acheivement and his current level and recent wins are just a notch below Martinez and Donaire.

What are we judging this on then because for recent opposition Mayweather and Pacquiao are definitely not numbers one and two

I judge it on a combination of thing. I dont think it can be judged on any one aspect. There is always going to be a strong element of subjectivity, especially with regars to perceived talents. Marquuez, while still good, is on the slide I think and his age is a factor. Donaire is on the up and in pure ability terms and recent record I would have him edging Marquez, although Marquez has the better record overall and better acheivements. Its fine margins though in many of the cases.

In pure ability terms I don't see Donaire being able to compete so well against someone with Pacquiaos taletn and that has to be taken into account. He may be old and on the slide but he's still capable of beating the best in his division. There are very fine margins between Marquez, Martinez and Donaire, while I have Donaire 5th I can understand the reasoning to him being considered for 3rd.

D4thincarnation wrote:While Martinez has done well last year he is not been as impressive as Pacquiao.

While Martinez has stepped up a couple of weights, Pacquiao has stepped up 10 where he has started.

Martinez has dropped a fair few round over the last couple of years, Pacquiao has barely dropped a round.

Pacquiao is beating guys that outweigh him by a stone in the ring, Martinez is facing and beating smaller guys or the same size, Pavlik excluded.

I have Martinez number 3 behind Pacquiao and Donaire at the moment, but he very close to Donaire.

It is unfortunate for Martinez that he middleweight division is so lacking of talent at the moment.

Whats the obsession with jumping weight - is a fighters ability to jump weight the way we measure quality these days? Seems some people (mainly pacnuts) are obsessed with it. At the lower weight classes the difference between some weight classes is no more than a big mac meal. Theres 8lb between super bantam and super feather, and thats with feather lodged in between FFS. Often a fighters ability to jump weight shows more about his ability to boil himself down in training - manny was weighing 144lb in the ring when he was a super feather. Weight jumping is not a significant criteria for judging p4p standing or ability. Skill, quality of opponents beaten and the manner in which you won, consistency, longevity are all more important. Winning trinkets 4lbs apart and calling yourself a multi weight champ is just a by-product of modern boxing and pretty cheap IMO.

Manny may not have lost many rounds of late, but he's fought no-one ranked in the p4p top ten since marquez 3 years ago. If you're an elite level fighter like he is and your promotor feeds you cab drivers like clottey then it's unlikely you will lose rounds. Not totally knocking him - the wins over hatton and cotto were mightily impressive, but since cotto he's been fed soft touches to keep the Top Rank coffers swelled, meanwhile martinez has fought williams twice as well dzinzurek and pavlik so lets have a little perspective. All this "mannys a small guy fighting bigger guys" is getting old too. It's been nearly two and a half years since he moved to welter, it's fair to say he's established above 140lb - he's proven it doesn't matter if a guy is 10lb heavier in the ring as he has the speed and energy to beat them. It doesnt really matter that he's beating guys that "outweigh him by a stone" if stylistically they are come forward plodders who are tailor made for him. This is enhanced further when his opponents such as clottey and marg are presented only as physical challenges, not stylistic ones. A stylistic challenge is what manny needs now, we know he can beat bigger men if they're slow plodders, we get it, its getting boring.

Manny remains p4p no1 though, no question. His achievements at the lower weights and longevity and activity solidify that even if his opposition in 2010 was mediocre compared to some others. If we class mayweather as active he's no2, but he's hanging by a thread and some sort of announcement about his career will be needed very quickly after this court case. There's nothing between Donaire and martinez really, but Martinez was 2010 fighter of the year which is evidence that his recent opposition has been a bit better than donaires overall so I'd go with him 3rd and donaire 4th. But we all know they're the 4 best fighters in the world right now, with marquez 5th.

Superb post, in my opinion, Sugar Boy.

Sums everything up nicely.

Excellent Sweetie; I agree about the difference between the lower weights. I have dumps that er bigger than the difference between some of em!

Total agree sugarboysweetie.... sounds quite dodgy saying that... Anyway, I don't have mayweather in my p4p atm because he isn't active. Some people I've read actually put bradley ahead of martinez >.<

Its not that easy to move up and compete in higher weight classes. How many dummies have been three weight world champions, not many. There were 3 belts in the 80s and the most prestigious multiple weight champions included Leonard, Hearns and Duran - ATG fighters. Adding a bit after the weigh in doesn't gurantee competing effectively at a higher weight class, especially against the top fighters in the division. Also, Manny moved up from a much lower weight level. He actually weighed under the legal limit for his first ever bout, but had to wear heavy objects in his shorts to make the weight. Starting out at light-flyweight and beating top class opposition 5-9 weight classes up is completely unheard of.

Cotto and Margarito can both box and utilise very different styles. Margarito is quick and a pressure fighter, he was all over Manny in their last fight. They are naturally larger men (especially Margarito), how far could DLH go in terms of weight or Miguel Cotto for that matter. A bodyshot from Hopkins can't do you much good. Manny has carried up power and chin which is also rare. Not long ago, half the word was convinced Pacquiao was on the special sauce. Pacquiao may have some special natural ability to add weight but maintain athleticism, speed and seemingly increase strength, but thats still his ability.

The two most impressive debutants near the top of the p4p list for me are Martinez and Donaire. The Montiel fight was supposed to be neck and neck, with Montiel as the puncher. A shock outcome, similar to Martinez vs Williams II.

The thing with Pacquiao he was still growing when he started so was never really a flyweight, once he'd matured he was no smaller than a featherweight, so I really don't buy this moving up from flyweight to Welterweight. He was always far bigger than his opposition in the lower weights. Roberto Duran for instance started at Bantamweight and eventually won a title at Middleweight, a far more impressive feat considering the vast difference in their quality of opposition.

imperialghosty wrote:The thing with Pacquiao he was still growing when he started so was never really a flyweight, once he'd matured he was no smaller than a featherweight, so I really don't buy this moving up from flyweight to Welterweight. He was always far bigger than his opposition in the lower weights. Roberto Duran for instance started at Bantamweight and eventually won a title at Middleweight, a far more impressive feat considering the vast difference in their quality of opposition.

It's easy to say he was always bigger, but did he have access to world class weight draining stuff when he KO'd the lineal champ at flyweight? I really doubt it... he weighed in under the limit fair and square, how he turned out shouldn't affect his earlier resume.

Also, Duran didn't fight a live body until he was at superfeather