Who wins and why - Prime Calzaghe vs Andre Ward (Neutral Venue)?

First topic message reminder :

Ward had too much speed for Froch, but how would he manage against a peak Joe Calzaghe?

Boxing Challenges - http://www.konkura.com/

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:Good grief, you love your contrarian personality. Yes Wilfred had more talent. But sadly he was washed up by 24.

Contrarian = opposing or rejecting popular opinion.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=contrarian&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=n2f&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=define:+contrarian&pbx=1&oq=define:+contrarian&aq=f&aqi=g2g-v2&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=9749l10899l0l11198l8l6l0l0l0l3l300l1444l0.1.4.1l6l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=b19227b75f4a479d&biw=1280&bih=697

Remind me - does Sibson beat Greb? Orlin Norris beat Marciano?

Argumentative as always Oxy.

Yes Sibbo would beat Grub. Straight punching from Sibbo would offset Grub's wild, wide punches.

And Orlin Norris was young and fresh and could move sideways to evade the other guy's crude swings. More importantly he was live, had a pulse rate and both feet on the ground as opposed to one in the coffin.

Jesus wept.

Yep. Indeed. Average fighter who fought old men. But dont derail this thread ok?

Andre Dirrell probably takes out Bob Fitz in your eyes as well.

And don't worry i, and most others, are bored of you when you get on that subject.

coxy0001 wrote:Andre Dirrell probably takes out Bob Fitz in your eyes as well.

And don't worry i, and most others, are bored of you when you get on that subject.

If you're bored why do you persist in asking question you already know the answer to? More attention seeking?

If i'd asked a question i'd have put a question mark at the end. It was a statement.

Ward. Calzaghe wouldn't be able to break him down every round and would probably get caught a lot on the inside with body shots. Ward would start slow and then adapt to negate the flurries, Joe would take the first 3/4 rounds based on a more attractive style and work rate, then mid fight, I can see Ward taking advantage and Joe needing a KO in 11 or 12 but not getting it.

It'd be close.

115 - 113 Ward.

How do you know that Greb through wild wide punches? How many of his fights have you seen?

coxy0001 wrote:If i'd asked a question i'd have put a question mark at the end. It was a statement.

It was aimed at me and the curteous thing to do was to respond which I did. Now if you dont want a response, dont ask questions or make statements which are expected to generate a response.

Now quit derailing the thread with your childish feuding and shoo.

Oxy

From watching him attempt to hit a speedbag and a heavy bag.

I'd like you to tell me how telling Oxy Seldon beats Greb was relevant to the thread.

Azania, you're full of it and thoroughly boring now. Sorry for being so abrupt, but it needed saying.

Fists of Fury wrote:Azania, you're full of it and thoroughly boring now. Sorry for being so abrupt, but it needed saying.

azania wrote:Oxy

From watching him attempt to hit a speedbag and a heavy bag.

Watched Larry and Muhammad on ESPN the other year, it showed Ali hitting the speed bag and given he was poor at this on the film I am now willing to dismiss his whole career and any results he may have acheived against fighters I have seen and ignore any context to the speed bag footage in the film or mitigating factors to explain why he was not very good on the speed bag and am now absolutely convinced Audley Harrison would beat Ali. Got to say I love this approach of watching two minutes of grainy footage on youtube and deciding everything and anything about a fighter and his career based on this, wish I had discovered it earlier, would have saved me a fortune on books and the time it took to read them.

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:Oxy

From watching him attempt to hit a speedbag and a heavy bag.

Watched Larry and Muhammad on ESPN the other year, it showed Ali hitting the speed bag and given he was poor at this on the film I am now willing to dismiss his whole career and any results he may have acheived against fighters I have seen and ignore any context to the speed bag footage in the film or mitigating factors to explain why he was not very good on the speed bag and am now absolutely convinced Audley Harrison would beat Ali. Got to say I love this approach of watching two minutes of grainy footage on youtube and deciding everything and anything about a fighter and his career based on this, wish I had discovered it earlier, would have saved me a fortune on books and the time it took to read them.

Agreed. I reckon Arreola beats Ali based upon that.

Absolute given that Oxy because Arrelola also has the quantum leaps in nutrition we have experienced in the last 30 years and a further 30 years of human evolution which is too great to be quantified, to be honest 30 years from now most scientists agree man will be able to fly unaided and breath underwater.

rowley wrote:Absolute given that Oxy because Arrelola also has the quantum leaps in nutrition we have experienced in the last 30 years and a further 30 years of human evolution which is too great to be quantified, to be honest 30 years from now most scientists agree man will be able to fly unaided and breath underwater.

Tsk. And you and I thought Arreola was just fat. Those moobs are his creosote stores. He needs them so his mid-fight efforts don't flag.

Did you know the jab was unheard of in 1900? Nowadays its second nature for skillsters like Cristobal.

oxring wrote:

rowley wrote:Absolute given that Oxy because Arrelola also has the quantum leaps in nutrition we have experienced in the last 30 years and a further 30 years of human evolution which is too great to be quantified, to be honest 30 years from now most scientists agree man will be able to fly unaided and breath underwater.

Tsk. And you and I thought Arreola was just fat. Those moobs are his creosote stores. He needs them so his mid-fight efforts don't flag.

Did you know the jab was unheard of in 1900? Nowadays its second nature for skillsters like Cristobal.

Lets not forget that feinting was only invented in 1961 as well.

No-one bothered to tell Margarito about this new development.

John Ruiz hitting the heavy bag really impressed me, he has a hard punch - I bet he's a harder hitter than George Foreman.

JabMachine wrote:John Ruiz hitting the heavy bag really impressed me, he has a hard punch - I bet he's a harder hitter than George Foreman.

That's a given, i mean he has 20lbs of man boobs behind each punch. Frazier wouldn't have lasted a round with the mighty Ruiz and all his modern techniques and nutrition.

I believe because of the fact that Ruiz probably ran on one of those modern treadmills that he'd have better stamina than Marciano. That coupled with a digital measurement of punch power - christ.

No wonder he's regarded as one of the strongest HW champions of the modern era.

Old stuff is better than new

It's a Wonderful life > Avatar
The Rolling Stones > Oasis
Don Bradman > Sachin Tendulkar
PG Wodehouse > Dan Brown
Marlon Brando > Shia LeBeuf
Mozart > Philip Glass
Constable > Tracy Emin
and in case anyone was in any doubt

Joe Louis > Wladimir Klichco

They are the facts and they are not changing.

Oasis are better than the Rolling Stones, how over-rated they are.

JabMachine wrote:Oasis are better than the Rolling Stones, how over-rated they are.

Don't ever speak to me again.

Ok but....

Spoiler:

Super D Boon wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:I saw Kessler's last fight against Bouadla and he looked impressive. No worse than when I saw him beat Beyer, Mundine and Andrade. He always had limitations such as a lack of lateral movement and quick feet. It was never something that noticeably declined over time.
Ward was just a class above him. I think he would have beaten any version of Kessler in a similar manner.

Even if one wants to nitpick, which seemingly is the case and say Kessler was not as good against Ward as he was with Calzaghe - we are hardly talking about a significant decline here. The differance would be marginal. He beat Froch fairly afterwards so we know for sure he was one of the divisions best. Thats the key point. Anything after is minor unless the suggestion was he was in serious decline which I think would be pretty ridiculous in light of him regaining the world title the very next fight after Ward.

You could just say that Kessler had a bad patch which included his fight with Ward?? Is that possible?

I never saw the recent Kessler fight but he looked blunt against both Ward and Froch. Not saying he would ever beat Ward but he didn't look at his best. Against froch I had Kessler winning by sheer willpower more than anything but his punches lacked the usual snap and accuracy. I think he landed one good shot all night against Froch which split his nose the rest of it was just pounding it out like a rock em sock em robot.

If you want to try any and all means to discredit Wards victory over him I guess you could say that.

manos de piedra wrote:If you want to try any and all means to discredit Wards victory over him I guess you could say that.

Why is it discrediting Wards win Manos?

Look at Manny's (incredible) wins over DLH, Cotto, Hatton - and yet for the past year they've been picked apart. This is no different.

I say again - it was a fantastic performance from Ward - and I believe he'd probably be good enough to beat any Kessler any time.

This statement is entirely compatible with:

Kessler looks a bit shopworn and hasn't looked as good since Beyer/Calzaghe days.

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:If you want to try any and all means to discredit Wards victory over him I guess you could say that.

Why is it discrediting Wards win Manos?

Look at Manny's (incredible) wins over DLH, Cotto, Hatton - and yet for the past year they've been picked apart. This is no different.

I say again - it was a fantastic performance from Ward - and I believe he'd probably be good enough to beat any Kessler any time.

This statement is entirely compatible with:

Kessler looks a bit shopworn and hasn't looked as good since Beyer/Calzaghe days.

No it isnt, its complete guessing really with no evidence to back it up. Kessler has a mysterious bad patch for the Ward patch and then somehow beats Froch to relaim a world title straight after?

He got taken apart by a better fighter and his very next fight he showed he was still a top level fighter by beating Froch. How is Wards win coincided with a bad patch for Kessler? Where is the tangible evidence?

Some people are looking for reasons to discredit the win. Kessler lost to Calzaghe and Ward because they were better fighters than him. The fact Ward dismantled in more impressive fashion seems to burn some people on here so they are trying to find an excuse for it. Which isnt there.

Ward, Calzaghe and Froch are better fighters than Beyer thats why he doesnt look as good against them.

So I need to add a third statement.
1. A fantastic performance from Ward.
2. Kessler didn't look as good as he once did
3. Kessler, despite not looking quite as good - still had enough to edge Froch.

As I said - the styles and manners of victory between Kessler/Ward and Calzaghe/Ward don't really fuss me in terms of predicting an outcome between the two. It showed me that Ward is a great technical fighter with elite level skills - nothing more than that. Drawing further conclusions is stretching the evidence we have too far IMO.

oxring wrote:So I need to add a third statement.
1. A fantastic performance from Ward.
2. Kessler didn't look as good as he once did
3. Kessler, despite not looking quite as good - still had enough to edge Froch.

As I said - the styles and manners of victory between Kessler/Ward and Calzaghe/Ward don't really fuss me in terms of predicting an outcome between the two. It showed me that Ward is a great technical fighter with elite level skills - nothing more than that. Drawing further conclusions is stretching the evidence we have too far IMO.

I agree with you for the most part. In regards to point 2. I think it was the higher standard of competition more than being being worse that accounted for him looking worse than he did previously.

Im not using the Kessler/Ward fightto say Ward wold beat Calzaghe, although I think it counts as evidence of why he might. Im just saying that there seems to be a spin put on the Ward fight with him to devalue it simply because it was a more dominant performance by Ward than what Calzaghe did. Both guys fought Kessler when he was on of the worlds top SMW and there was no major difference in his level.

i think its a leap of faith to assume ward would beat calzaghe. i think it would be a straight forward win for a prime calzaghe- ward is quick, akward and technically good, but joes workrate is something ward hasnt dealt with. i think joes quickness would be about the same as ward, but i think calzaghe would through a 1000 punches plus and just outwork him. hopkins spoiling tactics didnt work so i have no reason to beleive ward would be any differen. dont see a KO from either guy, and ward tired towards the end, which is when calzaghe would really take it to him

eddyfightfan wrote:i think its a leap of faith to assume ward would beat calzaghe. i think it would be a straight forward win for a prime calzaghe- ward is quick, akward and technically good, but joes workrate is something ward hasnt dealt with. i think joes quickness would be about the same as ward, but i think calzaghe would through a 1000 punches plus and just outwork him. hopkins spoiling tactics didnt work so i have no reason to beleive ward would be any differen. dont see a KO from either guy, and ward tired towards the end, which is when calzaghe would really take it to him

Hes better than anyone Calzaghe fought at SMW by a fair distance. Does Calzaghe really beat him easier than the likes of Bika, Reid and Kessler?

Hopkins tactics did work against him. He just lacked the stamina to maintain them.

oxring wrote:So I need to add a third statement.
1. A fantastic performance from Ward.
2. Kessler didn't look as good as he once did
3. Kessler, despite not looking quite as good - still had enough to edge Froch.

As I said - the styles and manners of victory between Kessler/Ward and Calzaghe/Ward don't really fuss me in terms of predicting an outcome between the two. It showed me that Ward is a great technical fighter with elite level skills - nothing more than that. Drawing further conclusions is stretching the evidence we have too far IMO.

Point 2. Perhaps Kessler didn't look as good as he once did because Ward made him look average. But to me he looked very good against Froch especially given that Froch is a terrific fighter. I think this is doing a disservice to Ward as a means of discrediting him.

Point 3. Perhaps Kessler was as good as he always was. I didn;t notice any discernable difference in his output, effort, or indeed performance.

Another point. Perhps JC was not as good as people make out for Kess to run him so close. Not my opinion as I believe JC was a great fighter and certainly one of Britains best ever.

I'll ignore the rest of the gibberish posted above.

manos de piedra wrote:

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:If you want to try any and all means to discredit Wards victory over him I guess you could say that.

Why is it discrediting Wards win Manos?

Look at Manny's (incredible) wins over DLH, Cotto, Hatton - and yet for the past year they've been picked apart. This is no different.

I say again - it was a fantastic performance from Ward - and I believe he'd probably be good enough to beat any Kessler any time.

This statement is entirely compatible with:

Kessler looks a bit shopworn and hasn't looked as good since Beyer/Calzaghe days.

No it isnt, its complete guessing really with no evidence to back it up. Kessler has a mysterious bad patch for the Ward patch and then somehow beats Froch to relaim a world title straight after?

He got taken apart by a better fighter and his very next fight he showed he was still a top level fighter by beating Froch. How is Wards win coincided with a bad patch for Kessler? Where is the tangible evidence?

Some people are looking for reasons to discredit the win. Kessler lost to Calzaghe and Ward because they were better fighters than him. The fact Ward dismantled in more impressive fashion seems to burn some people on here so they are trying to find an excuse for it. Which isnt there.

Ward, Calzaghe and Froch are better fighters than Beyer thats why he doesnt look as good against them.

Yes it is. Kessler even said he had a bad night against Ward himself and has always maintained he would much prefer a rematch with Calzaghe than Ward because of this. He beat Froch as I said through strength of will above anything else, ironically it may be his best victory. But "evidence" can come in the form of views from pundits, sports fans, and the boxers themselves. And there is plenty of evidence to back up why Kessler had a bad patch, add to what I have just mentioned plus promotional disputes and a recurring eye injury suffered before the Ward fight then it is indeed fair to say that Kessler had a "bad patch". Think why he may have taken a full year out through injury after a fight he won????

Froch also said he had a bad night against Ward. How come all boxers who lose to Ward suddenly all have bad nights? I see a theme here. If Hoppo loses to Ward he would also claim a bad night.

He beat Froch because he was better than Froch. Miles better. Also I wouldn't take what boxers say as evidence of anything that happens in their fights.

Fists of Fury wrote:Azania, you're full of it and thoroughly boring now. Sorry for being so abrupt, but it needed saying.

No need to apologise. You're entitled to your opinions.

Willie Peps career best win was beating Sandy Saddler, was it his best performance at his absolute best, no it was not much the same as Kessler beating Froch.

I'm happy to accept Ray Leonard is a complete fighter because of the varying style of fighters he beat in Duran, Hearns, Hagler and Benitez, all of who posed different questions of him. As yet Ward has not faced a counter puncher, a pressure fighter or a fighter with sublime speed or defence so it's hard to guage how complete he is until he beats if he does a Hopkins, Dawson or Bute. Froch and Kessler are to mind better fighters than Bute and Dawson but they don't pose the same problems.

Super D Boon wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:If you want to try any and all means to discredit Wards victory over him I guess you could say that.

Why is it discrediting Wards win Manos?

Look at Manny's (incredible) wins over DLH, Cotto, Hatton - and yet for the past year they've been picked apart. This is no different.

I say again - it was a fantastic performance from Ward - and I believe he'd probably be good enough to beat any Kessler any time.

This statement is entirely compatible with:

Kessler looks a bit shopworn and hasn't looked as good since Beyer/Calzaghe days.

No it isnt, its complete guessing really with no evidence to back it up. Kessler has a mysterious bad patch for the Ward patch and then somehow beats Froch to relaim a world title straight after?

He got taken apart by a better fighter and his very next fight he showed he was still a top level fighter by beating Froch. How is Wards win coincided with a bad patch for Kessler? Where is the tangible evidence?

Some people are looking for reasons to discredit the win. Kessler lost to Calzaghe and Ward because they were better fighters than him. The fact Ward dismantled in more impressive fashion seems to burn some people on here so they are trying to find an excuse for it. Which isnt there.

Ward, Calzaghe and Froch are better fighters than Beyer thats why he doesnt look as good against them.

Yes it is. Kessler even said he had a bad night against Ward himself and has always maintained he would much prefer a rematch with Calzaghe than Ward because of this. He beat Froch as I said through strength of will above anything else, ironically it may be his best victory. But "evidence" can come in the form of views from pundits, sports fans, and the boxers themselves. And there is plenty of evidence to back up why Kessler had a bad patch, add to what I have just mentioned plus promotional disputes and a recurring eye injury suffered before the Ward fight then it is indeed fair to say that Kessler had a "bad patch". Think why he may have taken a full year out through injury after a fight he won????

Firstly, Kessler spent longer out of the ring before the Calzaghe fight than he did against Ward. It also subsequently emerged that he was unable to spar for long periods prior to the Calzaghe fight and required immediate surgery on his hand afterwards due to an injury picked up. He hadnt fought in 8 or 9 months. So can I degrade Calzaghes win over him on that basis? Can I say he was ring rusty? Can he say because he didnt look as good as when he did against Beyer he was not at his best?

Secondly, the promtional issue is hardly going to have any effect on his ability as a fighter. It lead to him being inactive for a period in between his bout with Hausler and he then had a tune up fight prior to Ward. So it wasnt like he was coming into the Ward back after years out of the ring. It was no more than a couple of months. He was inactive far longer than that pior to the Calzaghe fight. Something like 8 or 9 months.

Thirdly, the eye injury happened in the Ward bout and was aggravated in the Froch bout requiring a lay off. He still managed to beat Froch because he was the better boxer on the night, and possibly is the better boxer overall.

I reject the notion that the Kessler that fought Ward was significantly worse than the one that fought Calzaghe. I think its just specualtion at best designed to downplay Wards win and elevate Calzaghes. Kessler was a top Super Middleweight when he fought both and went on to recapture a world title against a fellow top super middleweight after having lost to both. Any diferences between them were marginal in my view. You seem to be saying that Kessler was significantly worse and in bad form.

You can put spin on almost anything. I could say Kesslers experience in fighting a top clas operator like Calzaghe in a hostile atmosphere gave him invaluable experience and learning making him a much better fighter by the time Ward faced him. I could say his experiece in facing a top class, quick southpaw like Calzaghe meant he was better equipped to deal with Wards switch hitting. I could say the experience he had in a big world title fight outside his home country meant he was more relaxed fighting Ward in Wards hometown.

Realistically, I dont think there is a noteable difference between the version of Kessler that either faced. The truth was he was beaten fairly in both fights by better fighters who are a notch up. I just think Ward happened to do it more impressively. It doesnt mean Ward beats Calzaghe, but I think its evidence that they are guys operating in the same kind class level and hence I forsee a fight between the two as close.

I cant for the life of me see how people think Calzaghe beats Ward more handily than he did Kessler or Bika who are far inferior fighters to Ward but still posed Calzaghe problems.

It's not speculation at all Manos, ignoring Boxrec for a second we can see with our own eyes that Kessler wasn't with it for the Ward or Froch fights like he was against Beyer or Calzaghe. It's not making excuses or spinning it to suit our needs but considering what we have physically seen happen.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:It's not speculation at all Manos, ignoring Boxrec for a second we can see with our own eyes that Kessler wasn't with it for the Ward or Froch fights like he was against Beyer or Calzaghe. It's not making excuses or spinning it to suit our needs but considering what we have physically seen happen.

And giving absolutely no thought to the possiblity to the idea that it might have been Ward and Frochs doing rather than Kesslers.

Sorry Manos but if anyone out the three is going to make Kessler look worse than he is it's Calzaghe especially not Froch, his timing, speed and power simply wasn't there. The biggest indicator was his jab lacked the snap it did against Calzaghe, not degrading Wards win which was mighty impressive but considering the fights themselves.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Sorry Manos but if anyone out the three is going to make Kessler look worse than he is it's Calzaghe especially not Froch, his timing, speed and power simply wasn't there. The biggest indicator was his jab lacked the snap it did against Calzaghe, not degrading Wards win which was mighty impressive but considering the fights themselves.

No I think its because Wards all round game and ability to beat Kessler in every department was the reason more than Kessler being diminished in any way.

Ward made Frochs jab look useless aswell when many considered it one of Frochs key weapons.

I think Ward would have beaten Kessler anyway but I can't overlook the fact I don't think he was at his absolute best, I actually found the fight a disgrace to watch because of the blatent headbutts which did effect the way the fight was fought.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I think Ward would have beaten Kessler anyway but I can't overlook the fact I don't think he was at his absolute best, I actually found the fight a disgrace to watch because of the blatent headbutts which did effect the way the fight was fought.

I thought it was about as complete a performance could be displayed. He beat Kessler every which way. I thought it was a more impressive display than what Calzaghe did, but thats just me.

Incredible. Absolutely incredible. I wonder why the supposed issue of Kessler being over the hill was not raised until now. It makes me believe that Ward appears to be a serious talent who looks as though he is on his way to great things and possibly ATG status that he is being played down. I cant understand why.

But no mention that he beat Froch with a busted hand.

Calzaghe didn't feel the need to use his head every opportunity he had, fought a clean fight which makes the performance more impressive for me.

Ward is expert at getting inside a jab and closing off long distance to short distance very quicky to prevent his opponet getting into range. He tends to either be outside of range, or up close smothering. This, and the fact he sometimes fights southpaw leads to heads coming together alot.

So it's his superhuman talent that makes him headbutt his opposition then, glad to clear that one up.

manos de piedra wrote:

eddyfightfan wrote:i think its a leap of faith to assume ward would beat calzaghe. i think it would be a straight forward win for a prime calzaghe- ward is quick, akward and technically good, but joes workrate is something ward hasnt dealt with. i think joes quickness would be about the same as ward, but i think calzaghe would through a 1000 punches plus and just outwork him. hopkins spoiling tactics didnt work so i have no reason to beleive ward would be any differen. dont see a KO from either guy, and ward tired towards the end, which is when calzaghe would really take it to him

Hes better than anyone Calzaghe fought at SMW by a fair distance. Does Calzaghe really beat him easier than the likes of Bika, Reid and Kessler?

Hopkins tactics did work against him. He just lacked the stamina to maintain them.

i think his dismatling of lacy was more impressive than wards win over froch. much more decisive.