Djokovic's most important victory over Nadal in 2011?

A remarkable season of tennis, especially for Novak, has drawn to a close and inevitably a time of reflection ensues.
A dominating 6-0 head to head this season has left a visibly shaken and deflated Rafa pondering how on earth he can beat his great rival. In their meetings the physicality on display has been brutal to the point where at the US nadal could barely walk! But what was the most important victory for novak over rafa in 2011?

There are several ways to determine this in order of importance so here goes.

1) Indian wells: 4-6 6-3 6-2 - Novak's first victory over rafa in 2011. After initially struggling against the spaniard, the serb found his game superbly and played magnificentally, especially in the final set, to overpower Nadal. It could be argued this was a sign of things to come as he went toe to toe with the world no1 and seemed to find a balance between consistency, aggression and tactical astuteness. This laid the foundations for his wins over rafa as he found a game plan to regularly beat him.
Verdict: Though it was important, I believe this wasn't a defining victory for Novak and was perhaps the least important of his 2011 wins.

2) Miami: 4-6 6-3 7-6(3) - This proved that his previous victory was no fluke and incredibly outlasted Nadal in conditions that favoured Nadal on a slow court with high temperatures. Despite a first set wobble Novak again came from a set down to register his 2nd straight victory over rafa and in another masters final. It is one thing to have a plan to defeat someone, but to execute it consistently is an entirely different matter and once again Novak came up with the shots at crucial times, whereas rafa appeared to go into his shell after gaining a lead in the tiebreak. Novak had proven he was the best hardcourt player, but not many believed he would succeed on the spaniard's beloved clay.
Verdict: This for me was one of the most important victories of the year for novak as he 'out nadaled nadal' and this gave him even more confidence heading toward the clay court season.

3)Madrid: 7-5 6-4 - IMO this was the best display of novak's backhand prowess i have ever seen. It was also his first clay court victory over nadal which is perhaps one of the greatest tasks there is in tennis. After taking a 4-0 lead with metronomic ball striking and precision rafa fought back but was unable to prevent the serbinator from taking the first set and despite one of the best shots of the year (nadal's lob tweener) novak broke straight back after losing serve in the 2nd before bullying nadal into his first victory on the dirt. Despite being broken a few times, Novak always seemed in control creating 12 break point oppurtunities, double nadal's total.
Verdict: His first ever win over the spaniard on clay and only rafa's 17th loss on the surface. But this year Madrid was lightning fast and perhaps didnt suit rafa's game as well, but nonetheless a stunning victory, totally deserved and no doubt one of the biggest victories novak has ever registered.

4) Rome: 6-4 6-4 - Perhaps the most comprehensive of all Novak's 2011 victories over Rafa. 'Brutal dominance', to quote a youtube uploader, perfectly describes his victory here. Rafa had no excuses, no answers, no gameplan to combat novak's prowess here. Rafa tried fruitlessly to find a solution but all were met with an iron fist and quashed into submission. Rafa created just 3 BP's compared to Novak's 11 and hit just 15 winners to 22 UE's. Some journalists (Overend and the guardian's Kevin Mitchell) believed this was the most important victory as not only did it show novak could consistently beat rafa on hard and now clay, was the fact that never before had nadal been made to look so powerless to find the remedy to beat djokovic.
Verdict: In terms of the manner of the win this was the most convincing but had the groundwork already been made before this win? A fantastic result nonetheless and proved rafa is not quite invincible on the red stuff but was it the most important? I'm not sure.

5) Wimbledon: 6-4 6-1 1-6 6-3 - With Novak's no1 ranking already assured by his run to the final, pride was at stake for Rafa but once again Novak would not be denied. The 2nd set in particular was phenomenal as Novak didn't put a foot wrong and bulldozed a perplexed defending champion. Despite his concentration going awry in the 3rd he regained his composure to seal his first Wimbledon triumph which meant Novak had beaten on every surface the tour had to offer (bar indoor). Secondly nobody had ever beaten Nadal five times in a row (davydenko 4times) which is a monumental feat in itself and put a clear gap between the Djoker and the rest of the field.
Verdict: Proved he can win on any surface and Nadal seemed out of options and seemed to withdraw into his shell on the big moments with uncharacteristic errors becoming more frequent. The best moment of his career but in terms of victories over nadal in importance for the rest of the year and in the future again IMO it wasnt the most important but it was in terms of legacy as he had won his first slam away from Aus.

6) US Open: 6-2 6-4 (3)6-7 6-1 - Both men gave everything they had to offer in an exhausting display of stamina, power and a never say die attitude. Rafa could barely run in the final set, yet still gave his all, but ultimately it showed just how hard he had to work to win just 1 set. Though he accumulated 2-0 leads in both the first and second set he was unable to secure the breaks he'd made and eventually lost to Djokovic who received treatment on his shoulder and back (which later caused him to miss 6 weeks of the tour, something he never quite recovered from). Nadal seemed more positive in most of his other interviews after a defeat to Novak and he made a fantastic effort despite his serve deserting him not giving him the free points he received in abundance in the 2010 US Open.
Verdict: His first US Open win at the 3rd attempt, his 6th win over Nadal in a remarkable season but not the significant of his 2011 rafa victories.

Overall Verdict (Most important wins in order): Numbers (confidence) letters (importance)
1) Miami (d)
2) Rome (e)
3) Wimbledon (a)
4) Madrid (c)
5) US Open (b)
6) Indian Wells (f)
What are your thoughts?

Fence-sitting, I know, but you could make a case out for all of them, as each emphasised the superiority of one player over the other.
You could plump for either the clay court victories. This was Djoko beating the clay court king on his own territory.
Which one d'you think Djoko treasured the most ? I would guess.....Wimbledon. As he said earlier in the season, his ambition was to be number one and his dream was to win Wimbledon. He achieved both at the same tournament.

I agree sirfred you could make a case for any of them. He had set his sights out for Wimbledon ever since he was a boy but if you put a strong enough case for any of the wins you can justify any of them as the most significant.

Good thread. For me the most significant one is the USO win. First had Nadal won it, it woudl have given him a great encouragement for next year and people would have talked of Nadal finally finding the key to beat Djoko. But the last set 61 simply seals Nadal's fate and reminds us that even an injured Djoko can outlast Nadal in 5 setter from now.

This must have been a big blow for Nadal who is simply undefeated in 5 setters since 2007, 4 and a half years ago. SOme where saying that Nadal on clay over 5 sets is still impossible to beat. In fact we know now that the longer the match v Djoko the more chance Djoko is to win it.


This 6/0 in one year is a master blow for the former number 1. Never a player found his fortune so reversed in the space of a few month, and that regardless of the surface. NO wonder his motivation tooks its toll recently.

Tenez. Some very good points about the USO, particularly in the "I can outlast you" stakes.
Disagree, though, with the "master blow" bit. Yes, it's an understatment to say that it's not great to lose to the same player six times in one season. But at least Rafa was getting to the finals. Next year, Djoko may not even get to play Rafa very much due to getting injured/knocked out earlier. After all Murray and Fed never met the whole of this year, although I think it's unlikely the same thing could happen to Rafa and Nole.
Rafa just needs Murray or Fed to beat Djoko a few times and then we could be having another Slam-strewn Rafa year !

sirfredperry wrote:... But at least Rafa was getting to the finals. Next year, Djoko may not even get to play Rafa very much due to getting injured/knocked out earlier

Sure, Nadal has been second to Federer for years in the ranking and we might think he is kind of used to that spot. But the fact is he was only second to the "great Federer" and had this uxury to beat that "great Federer" on most occasions. I don;t think Nadal and Djoko share must respect but now that Nadal has tasted the number one spot and believed he could rule supreme, he gets stopped in his tracks and is for the first time second to someone who he also loses in finals.

I have watched some highlights of that USO final recently and you can see that Nadal looks really gutted on some of the points and at the end at the net as well.

For those guys finishing second is not good enough.

Sure Next year, Nadla will stull be able to sneak a slam maybe like he did this year in Paris...but I feel, more than anything, than it's more likely others will catch up with him more than him and Djoko pulling away.

We will see.

Well certainly Djoko has prepared the way for others to believe they can "stay" with Rafa rather than just try to blast him off the court. If Rafa's losses in 2011 had come from, say, Tsonga, with a blistering display of hitting or from Berdych or anyone else having an inspired two hours or so, then it would have been easier to shrug them off.
But Djoko has effectively beaten Rafa at his own game - and on clay, too. So that is obviously a worry - and an encouragement to others. Having said all that, I still think it's devilishly difficult to beat Rafa over five sets and even harder to do it at the French.

I would say Rome was the most important. I think this was the point where it became clear that Djokovic was more than just a player enjoying a hot streak and that the balance of power had actually shifted.

IW, Miami and Madrid were all great victories but you could add caveats to all them - two were on Nadal's weakest surface and Madrid was a very quick clay court.

Rome, however, was set up perfectly for Nadal. Not only was it his ideal surface but Djokovic had played a mammoth game against Murray the night before. Despite this, it ended up being a comfortable Djokovic victory.

Djokovic's play in this match was fantastic. In my opinion, it was the high watermark of his season. Although he would play great tennis on other occasions, notably the second set at Wimbledon, I don't think there was another match where every facet of his game functioned so well at the same time.

As I watched the game you could almost see Nadal running out of ideas. It was evident that he now had an opponent against whom simply playing with greater intensity wasn't going to work. It was in this area that I think Nadal was found wanting - not only did he not manage to execute different tactics but he gave no indication that he even knew what those tactics should be. This was a conundrum he was unable to solve for the future meetings at Wimbledon at US Open.

I think this is where Rafa's crisis of confidence against Novak came from. The realisation that if Plan A isn't working, there isn't a clear Plan B, or at least not one he had the form or confidence to carry out.

Wimbledon 2011. Showed he could beat Nadal on any surface and even in slams. The problem though is, in almost all those matches, Djokovic had to play unbelievably well to beat Nadal. A level hardly ever seen. He will have to maintain it throught out next year to beat Nadal that frequentl again and it might not be easy. I saw that kind of insane performance and consistency from Del Potro at the USO 09 and it couldn't last so we await Djokovic's next year. His form took alot of people by suprise though.

Yh I'll have to agree with SA on that one.
btw did you get my inbox?

Don't recall watching the Rome final but think the above comment (third one above now) makes a lot of sense. However I would still go with the slams they are simply more important tournaments and Wimbledon was Djokovic's first ever victory versus Nadal in a slam and confirmed him as the number one player clearly. Had he lost it, Nadal would have been holding three slams to his one. The clay wins were significant too though.

Henman Bill Overall Verdict (Most important wins in order):

1) Wimbledon
2) US Open
3) Rome
4) Madrid
5) Indian Wells
6) Miami

The reason i put Miami first was that it set the tone for the rest of the year. He was just a few points away from defeat there and if he had lost it, perhaps he wouldnt of had the stellar year that he has had.
It is so open to debate this one it could of gone the way of the slams, the clay or the first victory as well.

LuvSports! wrote:The reason i put Miami first was that it set the tone for the rest of the year. He was just a few points away from defeat there and if he had lost it, perhaps he wouldnt of had the stellar year that he has had.
It is so open to debate this one it could of gone the way of the slams, the clay or the first victory as well.

I agree it was a close match but I don;t think it had a big impact as Djoko has won 9 of their last 11 encounters. It means he knew already in Miami that he could beat him. It was not like a big revelation. It was essentially a close match because it was windy. The fact Djoko won despite conditions not suiting him was certainly bad omen for Nadal.

Madrid or Wimbledon for me. Madrid because it was his first on clay, and wimbers as it was his first in a slam.

Let us not forget before Wimbledon, Djokovic was 0-5 against Nadal in slams and i believe all but one of those was not in the finals or semi finals so big matches. He had shown he could beat Nadal in best of 3 so the question was there. Wimbledon put the demons to bed. For example, he beat Nadal 2 straight times before USO and still lost it in 2010 so Wimbledon was very important. Had he lost, it would have been back to square 1.

I don't buy that the question was we did not know whether Djoko could do it in best of 5.

We did not have to wait best of 5 cause we could see already that in best of 3 Nadal was the first to tire (IW and Miami). So it was obvious that in slams Djoko woudl have even more chance. And this was proved by how comfortable he won he won his 4th set in both slam matches. Only those who wanted to move to the goal posts (first he won't do it in a final, then he won't do it on clay, then finally not in best of 5), were slower to observe the respective strengths/weaknesses of those 2 players.

Not sure what the impact of any was, in reality Djokovic has had Nadal's number for a very long time, but a dodgy contact lens and Federer (at the USO 2010) meant he lost 2 of the last 11.

I suspect that without those handicaps he would be 11 on the run now. That's ownership.

Funny how Federer fans have joined. May be a more appropraite question will be 'Federer's most important slam win against Nadal'. I'm sure there will be limitless options to chose from.

Any way back to the topic, we will get to see what happens next year.

Tenez - The 3 victories novak had before 2011 he was against a nadal who was seriously undercooked or perhaps met players who played great on the day and were to much for him to handle i.e. 3 losses in straights at 2009 WTF's.
Would novak been able to produce the performances that he did at wimbledon and the US at the time of IW and Miami im not so sure.
That is why I put Miami first as it provided the groundwork for him to reach greater heights.

Here we have a good article about the two best players of 2011.

And yet ..... surprise surprise .... SA can always be relied upon to come up with a post about his favourite topic : R. Federer Esq.

Changing the habits of a lifetime is no easy challenge. But SA/UE really needs to wean himself off the Fed obsession. It's 'simply' not healthy .......

Nole's most important win over Nadal in 2011 was the one in Madrid.
That was the last question answered in his mind.

Wimbledon was a formality for Nole, so was USO.

Looking at it the other way in terms of which loss hurt Nadal the most, I'd say the 2nd TMS loss... after that Nadal's head got down for most of the year and he started to self-doubt.

but you know in a funny way I think Nadal will look back on 2011 and thank Nole for giving him the motivation to carry on and keep learning, keep trying to improve...there is nothing more Nadal loves than chasing a target, a challenge of competition and I can guarantee you he'll be after Nole's tail next year. I also agree that Nole had to play at an almost unreal level to achieve what he did, I just cant see him sustaining that...thats not to say he cant still do well but not 5TMS and 3 slams.

LuvSports! wrote:Tenez - The 3 victories novak had before 2011 he was against a nadal who was seriously undercooked or perhaps met players who played great on the day and were to much for him to handle i.e. 3 losses in straights at 2009 WTF's.
Would novak been able to produce the performances that he did at wimbledon and the US at the time of IW and Miami im not so sure.
That is why I put Miami first as it provided the groundwork for him to reach greater heights.

Was he also undercooked when he lost 4 in a row v Davydenko or 3 in a row v Delpo? It's just that players who have both pacy BH and FH can hurt him badly. I certainly agree with BB that had it not been for Djoko exhaustion or contact lense problems he probably would be on a 11 run. Ownership.

When Federer kept losing v Nadal it was essentially matches that were mighty close. It's not close between Nadal and Djoko. It must be depressing for Nadal and reading at his recent interviews he seems in denial of the situation but that I guess is subject to another thread.

This use of the word "ownership" imparts glee at someone losing...but knowing that Tenez and BB love to see Nadal lose is not exactly current news is it. When Nadal loses a run to Djoko its ownership, when Federer loses a run to Nadal its matches that were very close. Oh come on...

Tenez, hats off to you for your never ceasing energy to keep going on about Nadal in a negative sense as you do. Its almost pathological hate. You really didnt take Miami 2004 well did you...and the funny thing is you love Djokovic beating Nadal as you hate Nadal that much, yet Federer cant stand Djokovic but is very good friends with Nadal and shows him due tennis ability respect...something you seem incapable of.

lydian wrote:Tenez, hats off to you for your never ceasing energy to keep going on about Nadal in a negative sense as you do.

I did not start the thread allocating a paragraph for each Nadal defeat. But I am giving to Nadal what belongs to Nadal: Negativity. His game is based on bringing the game of his opponent down by breaking their rhythm, breaking their legs, breaking their will to take risk by constantly bringing the ball back.

When I see different, I will write differently. Don;t forget: I don't know Nadal or Federer so I am on;y basing what I say on what I see.

But finally, please keep on the subject instead of commenting on my perception of a player.

To be honest, any one of these matches had Djokovic lost could have knocked his confidence and caused Nadal to end up the year no 1. Or, on the other hand, and some will certainly see it this way, he was just dominating all year and the odd defeat, like Miami, might not have mattered or affected the other matches. But it's hard to say.

Prior to Wimbledon, you could make a strong case for a Djokovic victory but until he actually went out and did in in a slam on a surface he didn't have his best record on he hadn't really fully confirmed and proved as much. Like you know, you could make a great case for Murray to beat Federer in a slam final based on his wins in masters series, but he wasn't able to go out there and do it. Simple Analyst does know the game and can talk some sense when he leaves the cheap Federer-fan bating aside.

This should have been the harbinger of 2011 to come...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHOnXnfb8o0

Hi Laver Fan, good to see you on here as well as MTL. Always appreciate your statistical contributions and calm level headnesses. Not sure about that clip though, I gave up after not being able to see the ball. Clay is hard to watch on you tube unless the quality's great.

Henman Bill wrote:Hi Laver Fan, good to see you on here as well as MTL. Always appreciate your statistical contributions and calm level headnesses. Not sure about that clip though, I gave up after not being able to see the ball. Clay is hard to watch on you tube unless the quality's great.

Apologies, HB for the quality of the UTube link. Hope this link is better... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqqSv9LAE0A

Perhaps Tiriac's Blue Clay would help visualise the ball better.

Wimby final then the USO, the others are just warm up or practice events for the slams.

Novak is now at a level where his career, like Fed and Nadal's, will be judged by slam performance. The lesser events become almost irrelevant when evaluating GOAT contenders.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Wimbledon 2011. Showed he could beat Nadal on any surface and even in slams. The problem though is, in almost all those matches, Djokovic had to play unbelievably well to beat Nadal. A level hardly ever seen. He will have to maintain it throught out next year to beat Nadal that frequentl again and it might not be easy. I saw that kind of insane performance and consistency from Del Potro at the USO 09 and it couldn't last so we await Djokovic's next year. His form took alot of people by suprise though.

OMG, I have to agree with SA for the first time.

In terms of Achivement Wimbledon certainly ranks head above the rest, coz Djoko wanted it. Wimbledon was a sterner test to him as he is weaker on grass than the other surface, untill this year, he could never prove himself on grass, he has been losing consistently to player who havent done good in grass like Safin, Haas etc,.. and to come out of that reputation and beat the modern day Rafa [ 2 titles and 5 finals , next only to great Federer in the contemporary era] was a monumental feat.

In terms of belief it has to be 2) Miami: 4-6 6-3 7-6(3) - coz here he believed he can beat Rafa in a very close tensed game, which for some reason Nole could never achieve in the past in spite of standing toe-toe in some clay matches. This hardcourt win made him believe he can win Rafa in clay too and it proved right.

In terms of Record - It has to be USO , coz a win here would have still eased Rafa's mental fatigue and could have made Djoko think again whether his run against Rafa was a fluke? thankfully the previous ones didnt leave Djoko's mind and he realized in the mid court i am the King and I will prove it and ended up thrashing Rafa in the final set.

I guess I'm the only one to take Indian Wells as the most important match.
I saw the match and while Novak showed he could go head to head against Nadal he never really enjoyed an edge game-wise (just like in Miami, only since Madrid did his gamestyle really look superior) and only started winning when Nadal's serve dropped unexplainbably to an atrocius number of around 25% at a certain moment. I think Nadal is really to blame for that loss there, a loss that never should have been, as I thought him the better player as long as the serve was working. Djoko's comeback victory set the doubts in for Miami, which made Nadal again let a one-set lead slip, after that it was clear to me Djoko had the edge in their match-up (maybe not yet game-wise - they seemed to be evenly matched at that time - but surely mentally).

In terms of achievements Indian Wells might not rate really highly compared to Wimbledon or the US Open, but it was the foundation of what was to come. Nadal might really rue the loss of his serve that day, as without that happening the whole year could have turned differently. People might argue I'm reading too much in one match, but I just believe one single match can be really significant, just as I believe the 2006 Rome final determined the Federer-Nadal rivalry.

invisiblecoolers wrote:
OMG, I have to agree with SA for the first time.

Don't worry. It can be cured.

Invisible coolers - Great comment you perhaps summarised it better than i did Miami did give him the belief and Wimbledon was his greatest triumph.

[quote="invisiblecoolers"]

Simple_Analyst wrote:Wimbledon 2011. Showed he could beat Nadal on any surface and even in slams. The problem though is, in almost all those matches, Djokovic had to play unbelievably well to beat Nadal. A level hardly ever seen. He will have to maintain it throught out next year to beat Nadal that frequentl again and it might not be easy. I saw that kind of insane performance and consistency from Del Potro at the USO 09 and it couldn't last so we await Djokovic's next year. His form took alot of people by suprise though.

Disagree, it is Nadal who has to play unbelievably well these days to beat Djokovic.
Djokovic wasnt playing unbelievably in the US Open (compared to early and mid 2011) and still beat Nadal quite comfortably. He did well though given the circumcstances, as he was struggling with injury. Imagine what a fit Djokovic could do to Nadal, wouldnt be surprised of a straight sets win at AO (Nole's best court I believe) or even FO (he was very close to a straight sets victory at the US Open!). The only problem he could have is not being fit. But if he aint, he probably wont get far enough in the tournament to play Nadal anyway.
Best situation for Nadal is that Djoko is injured and that he wont have to play him, so he can run away with the big prices.

You seem lost in translation? So you thought Djokovic almost unplayable the whole year was a conincedence? If he wasn't playing incredibly well, he would have lost some of those matches. All you have to do is watch the matches which i doubt you did and look at the stats. Nadal for me this year did nothing special. His form was average almost throughtout the years and again the matches and stats will show this. 5 sets on clay against Isner at the FO. Seriously. Whether it was a lack of motivation or something else, Nadal was not as his best this year. After the USO win last year, he probably won almost everything he ever wanted. Djokovic in case caught everyone by suprise and especially Nadal. At first everyone thought he was just on a hot strek and his level of play will drop a bit but no. The level of consistency in his matches was almost unbelievable. His grounds strokers, his serving, speed, ability to attack and defend was simply outstanding.

We will see what happens next year. Maintain the consistency shown this year and he could as well win 3 slams. Let it drop of a bit the likes of Nadal will start beating him again. Even if not the case, we will see more focus, drive and determination from Nadal next year i believe. Remember Nadal's path to a career slam was not any tough for him. His greatest obstacle some will believe in getting there was Federer yet he made mockery of him in the slams he needed to get the career slam. Nadal needed to be challenged and i for one gets bored of watching the same player win everything and does not matter whether they are my favourite or not.

Simple_Analyst wrote:You seem lost in translation? So you thought Djokovic almost unplayable the whole year was a conincedence? If he wasn't playing incredibly well, he would have lost some of those matches. All you have to do is watch the matches which i doubt you did and look at the stats. Nadal for me this year did nothing special. His form was average almost throughtout the years and again the matches and stats will show this. 5 sets on clay against Isner at the FO. Seriously. Whether it was a lack of motivation or something else, Nadal was not as his best this year. After the USO win last year, he probably won almost everything he ever wanted. Djokovic in case caught everyone by suprise and especially Nadal. At first everyone thought he was just on a hot strek and his level of play will drop a bit but no. The level of consistency in his matches was almost unbelievable. His grounds strokers, his serving, speed, ability to attack and defend was simply outstanding.

We will see what happens next year. Maintain the consistency shown this year and he could as well win 3 slams. Let it drop of a bit the likes of Nadal will start beating him again. Even if not the case, we will see more focus, drive and determination from Nadal next year i believe. Remember Nadal's path to a career slam was not any tough for him. His greatest obstacle some will believe in getting there was Federer yet he made mockery of him in the slams he needed to get the career slam. Nadal needed to be challenged and i for one gets bored of watching the same player win everything and does not matter whether they are my favourite or not.

Spot on

Simple_Analyst wrote:His form was average almost throughtout the years and again the matches and stats will show this. 5 sets on clay against Isner at the FO. Seriously. Whether it was a lack of motivation or something else, Nadal was not as his best this year. After the USO win last year, he probably won almost everything he ever wanted.

It is possible to look at this differently. The self-doubt that was sowed in Nadal's head starting @IW culminated in Nadal playing average @FO.
Isner almost pulled a Soderling 2009. Del Potro came close in DC.

Laverfan - i dont agree that after one defeat against novak that as you put it 'the self doubt was sowed in Nadal's head starting @IW'. Otherwise he would of experienced the same with every loss to the serb.

Repeated losses caused that and also as Nadal was coming back from his break after Aus he wasn't at his best but had improved in Miami and the doubt may have trickled in after the close loss in Miami and this was then heightened on the spaniard's beloved clay in madrid and rome.

On an unrelated note does anybody know any good sporting blogs?

amritia3ee wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:You seem lost in translation? So you thought Djokovic almost unplayable the whole year was a conincedence? If he wasn't playing incredibly well, he would have lost some of those matches. All you have to do is watch the matches which i doubt you did and look at the stats. Nadal for me this year did nothing special. His form was average almost throughtout the years and again the matches and stats will show this. 5 sets on clay against Isner at the FO. Seriously. Whether it was a lack of motivation or something else, Nadal was not as his best this year. After the USO win last year, he probably won almost everything he ever wanted. Djokovic in case caught everyone by suprise and especially Nadal. At first everyone thought he was just on a hot strek and his level of play will drop a bit but no. The level of consistency in his matches was almost unbelievable. His grounds strokers, his serving, speed, ability to attack and defend was simply outstanding.

We will see what happens next year. Maintain the consistency shown this year and he could as well win 3 slams. Let it drop of a bit the likes of Nadal will start beating him again. Even if not the case, we will see more focus, drive and determination from Nadal next year i believe. Remember Nadal's path to a career slam was not any tough for him. His greatest obstacle some will believe in getting there was Federer yet he made mockery of him in the slams he needed to get the career slam. Nadal needed to be challenged and i for one gets bored of watching the same player win everything and does not matter whether they are my favourite or not.

Spot on

Many people seem to think that somehow in 2012 Djokovic will fall back to his old level. Like he has just been on some kind of hot streak that won't last. I don't believe that 2012 Djokovic will be much different than 2011 Djokovic. He's not just on a good run, the changes he has made are permanent, and so are the benefits of these. Nadal will have to make changes with a similar impact in order to suddenly turn his match-up with Djokovic around (the way Djokovic did at the start of this year). Unfortunately, as much as I would like to see more of a rivalry between the two instead of this constant bitchspanking, I do not see what significant changes Nadal could make. He looks lost for answers, already a whole year long. When you hear a guy of the (mental) calibre of Nadal saying something like: "I have to somehow make myself believe that I can beat him", you know something is very wrong. How is he gonna do that all of a sudden? Push on a magic button? And even if he believes, Djokovic will believe even more.

Before Noleisthebest starts to spam me with :heart:s I though have to say that Djokovic might not be as invincible next year. I'm certain Federer can beat him and Murray could be a real night mare matchup for Nole if he mans up (if I were a Nole fan I would be very watchful for Murray, and I must be very serious now as I dont even like that guy much). Nole might also struggle physically, he's very athletic and flexible but his body doesnt really look like it can take that much of a strain, as seen at the end of this year.

Many people seem to think that somehow in 2012 Djokovic will fall back to his old level

No! People seem to think he will have to play on the same level he did in 2011 to have the same success from January to the end of the US Open.

LuvSports! wrote:Laverfan - i dont agree that after one defeat against novak that as you put it 'the self doubt was sowed in Nadal's head starting @IW'. Otherwise he would of experienced the same with every loss to the serb.

Repeated losses caused that and also as Nadal was coming back from his break after Aus he wasn't at his best but had improved in Miami and the doubt may have trickled in after the close loss in Miami and this was then heightened on the spaniard's beloved clay in madrid and rome.

On an unrelated note does anybody know any good sporting blogs?

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The defeat at IW was very different from previous defeats against the Serbinator. In the past he had lost because Djokovic was just better on the day. At IW the serb scored his first win over Nadal after losing the first set (such type of wins often indicate a mental edge) and it was also the first time he beat him in a final. This added to the Novaks hot run, Davis Cup boost etc. must have made Nadal worried that Chokervic had finally transformed into Supernovak. In his book he admitted he always saw Djokovic as his most dangerous opponent.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Many people seem to think that somehow in 2012 Djokovic will fall back to his old level

No! People seem to think he will have to play on the same level he did in 2011 to have the same success from January to the end of the US Open.

Thats not what you said earlier this debate. You said he had to play the same level to beat Nadal over and over again next year, which is not the same as having the same success next year, as I believe he will lose more to other players. Stay on topic regarding our little debate please.

At the end of the day who knows? It's very unpredictable. Novak might play well or he might not, who knows?

amritia3ee wrote:At the end of the day who knows? It's very unpredictable. Novak might play well or he might not, who knows?

Very true. But I just can't see how people can still have so much confidence in Nadal turning it around. I don't see how he's going to do it.

Chydremion wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:Many people seem to think that somehow in 2012 Djokovic will fall back to his old level

No! People seem to think he will have to play on the same level he did in 2011 to have the same success from January to the end of the US Open.

Thats not what you said earlier this debate. You said he had to play the same level to beat Nadal over and over again next year, which is not the same as having the same success next year, as I believe he will lose more to other players. Stay on topic regarding our little debate please.

Of course he will have to because at the end of the day, Nadal was the one making all those finals bar a few so it's best judged against him. Certainly that isn't too hard to understand. For all the hysteria somehow aluding that Federer was any better against Djokovic this year, the played 4, he lost 3. All 3 on hard courts as well. Murray against him lost their slam meeting so that tell you Djokovic was simply dominating everyone with outstanding and consistent performance. Can he play better next year than this year? Well he can but certainly will take a lot to go beaten just once from Januray to end of USO.

Chydremion wrote:

amritia3ee wrote:At the end of the day who knows? It's very unpredictable. Novak might play well or he might not, who knows?

Very true. But I just can't see how people can still have so much confidence in Nadal turning it around. I don't see how he's going to do it.

I do feel if rafa can regain the serving capabilities that aided him so well in his 2010 US Open triumph will make a slight improvement to his fortunes, despite novak's return game, giving him more cheap points. Also throughout the US final this year McEnroe commented on the fact that rafa has to take his forehand up the line, but still be prepared to hit another shot. This tactic did bring success though he didn't use it enough.

Simple_Analyst wrote:

Chydremion wrote:

Simple_Analyst wrote:Many people seem to think that somehow in 2012 Djokovic will fall back to his old level

No! People seem to think he will have to play on the same level he did in 2011 to have the same success from January to the end of the US Open.

Thats not what you said earlier this debate. You said he had to play the same level to beat Nadal over and over again next year, which is not the same as having the same success next year, as I believe he will lose more to other players. Stay on topic regarding our little debate please.

Of course he will have to because at the end of the day, Nadal was the one making all those finals bar a few so it's best judged against him. Certainly that isn't too hard to understand. For all the hysteria somehow aluding that Federer was any better against Djokovic this year, the played 4, he lost 3. All 3 on hard courts as well. .

they played 5 times, Aus, Dubai, IW, RG and US = 4-1 novak

Ah you see i even left out Dubai. So that's 4-1. Take out the FO slip out and you have a potential 5-0 season thrashing ala Nadal's 0-6 thrashing.

LuvSports! wrote:

Chydremion wrote:

amritia3ee wrote:At the end of the day who knows? It's very unpredictable. Novak might play well or he might not, who knows?

Very true. But I just can't see how people can still have so much confidence in Nadal turning it around. I don't see how he's going to do it.

I do feel if rafa can regain the serving capabilities that aided him so well in his 2010 US Open triumph will make a slight improvement to his fortunes, despite novak's return game, giving him more cheap points. Also throughout the US final this year McEnroe commented on the fact that rafa has to take his forehand up the line, but still be prepared to hit another shot. This tactic did bring success though he didn't use it enough.

That serve would certainly help, but it looked more like a one-off to me at that US Open 2010, after that he experienced shoulder problems and stopped serving that big.

Taking the forehand up the line is the best thing he can do, but similarly Federer against Nadal has to take the backhand down the line and has to do this and that and whatever, in the end it's rarely enough.