Who is the Greatest ever ever Cruiserweight?

Now before you all shout Evander Holyfield at me, I want to know who was the greatest fighter to fight around the cruiser weight limit throughout history.

The Cruiserweight division only came in during the 80s before then there were plenty of boxers that fought around that limit that could have been greater cruiserweight champions before Holyfield.

And if we ranked the cruiserweights this way where would Holyfield be in those revised rankings?

So what your basically asking is who are the greatest Heavyweights who weighed less than 200lbs?

Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney, Fitzsimmons, Langford, Frazier, Choynski, Johnson, Charles, Walcott etc.

Ezzard Charles maybe

imperialghosty wrote:So what your basically asking is who are the greatest Heavyweights who weighed less than 200lbs?

Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney, Fitzsimmons, Langford, Frazier, Choynski, Johnson, Charles, Walcott etc.

And how do they compare with Holyfield.

Charles did too much of his best work at 160 lb and, more notably, at 175 lb to be considered for this, really.

Langford had a lot of great moments between 175 lb and 200 lb, so would be in the running. Him aside, Ghosty has already mentioned most of the top Heavyweights who were south of 200 lb.

This is as inane as asking something stupid like 'who was the best light middleweight to fight around 150lbs?'.

It's impossible to say because none of them fought at the weight so it comes down to their rankings at Heavyweight where many of their biggest wins would be discredited

Floyd Patterson, maybe or Spinks, just a bit small to compete at heavy, but at cruiser they would not have been bullied by the likes of Liston and Tyson

Wouldn't mind seeing a few of they match ups, thought holyfield was superb at Cruiserweight, back when it was still fifteen rounds too, he had great conditioning and workrate so think he could hold his own with a few of the names mentioned there. Would pick Langford to beat them all.

Personally would have Langord at the bottom of the guys I mentioned with the exception of Choynski but it's an impossible question to answer with any certainty as none of them fought there.

Well I was talking at first in a 'pound for pound' sense Ghosty, but as you say it doesn't make much difference either way.

Pound for Pound i'd have him above them all other than Fitzsimmons but we haven't really got a lot to go on opposition wise.

You got Fitzsimmons beating Corbett
Marciano beating Charles (who was naturally smaller than a cruiserweight)

The Heavyweights generally fought heavier guys and the rest also fought heavier or lighter guys, not a lot around the 200lb mark

I must say that I would find it rather hard to look past Tunney.

I have long loathed the inculsion of the cruiseweight division. While it may have been a decent idea in theory, in practice it doesnt work at all. The sport has thrown up numerous quality smaller heavyweights and the ruiser division has acted as a kind of buffer for those that cant shed the pounds to make lightheavy and dont have the quality to make heavyweight - with a few noted exceptions.

But to the original point, Tunney was a supreme fighter and whilst some of the smaller heavyweight champions like Walcott and Charles may have been found a little short on occasion at the weight with their best work clearly lying elsewhere, I think with Tunney there is strong reason to believe he could have easily held his own there in his own right as a heavyweight.

If you allow for cruiserweight, then Tunney would be immensely formidable.

Marciano always well in the cruiser weight limit, unbeaten heavyweight champion, beat guys like Charles, Moore and Walcott, and beat Louis although past his best.

How would have Marciano vs Holyfield went down

imperialghosty wrote:So what your basically asking is who are the greatest Heavyweights who weighed less than 200lbs?

Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney, Fitzsimmons, Langford, Frazier, Choynski, Johnson, Charles, Walcott etc.

With the exception of Frazier (that would have been a heck of a tear up), Holy beats the lot of them pretty handily also.

D4thincarnation wrote:Marciano always well in the cruiser weight limit, unbeaten heavyweight champion, beat guys like Charles, Moore and Walcott, and beat Louis although past his best.

How would have Marciano vs Holyfield went down

Rock was a small cruiser.Holy absolutely slaughters him. To fast, varied and skilled for a limited (albeit hard hitting) plodder like Rock.

I would suspect that Marciano and Holyfield at cruiser would be a case of Holyfield being to brave for his own good. The secret to beating the Rock as I am sure any of his victims would agree is to avoid getting hit by him as much as possible!

Holyfield isnt hard to find and is willing to engage in close quarter battles. This I feel favours Marcianos power heavily and I see Holyfield being worn down and stopped late from one too many punishing trade offs with the more powerful Marciano.

Holyfield doesn't have the power to knock Marciano out so would have to outbox him which really isn't his style. Size wise there is little between them and if it turned into a tear up I can only see Marciano coming out on top with his superior work rate and power. You band the word slaughter about far too much, he may have been limited but nobody out wills the rock who's stamina and heart were second to none. At Cruiserweight the likes of Dempsey and Marciano have the benefit of not being over powered while carrying immense power and strength for the weight. A lot of good match ups where like Colonial would favour the style of Tunney over them all.

imperialghosty wrote:Holyfield doesn't have the power to knock Marciano out so would have to outbox him which really isn't his style. Size wise there is little between them and if it turned into a tear up I can only see Marciano coming out on top with his superior work rate and power. You band the word slaughter about far too much, he may have been limited but nobody out wills the rock who's stamina and heart were second to none. At Cruiserweight the likes of Dempsey and Marciano have the benefit of not being over powered while carrying immense power and strength for the weight. A lot of good match ups where like Colonial would favour the style of Tunney over them all.

Holy has stamina and heart in abundance also. Rock doesn't have a monopoly on that. Also I am not one of those who sunscribes to the theory that some boxers are impervious to being KO'd. Hit them right and they go. Holy would tear him apart. Lets not forget that Holy stood toe to toe with tyson who was a far superior fighter than Rock in every aspect of boxing and prevailed.

We're talking about Cruiserweight here and not Heavyweight so mentioning Tyson is irrelevant. Holyfield wouldnt have been able to impose himself like that weighing 190lbs.

Well i've seen Marciano hit by bigger punchers than Holyfield and still be standing so don't see him getting knocked out that easily. Stylistically how does the Cruiserweight Holyfield rip Marciano apart.

imperialghosty wrote:We're talking about Cruiserweight here and not Heavyweight so mentioning Tyson is irrelevant. Holyfield wouldnt have been able to impose himself like that weighing 190lbs.

Well i've seen Marciano hit by bigger punchers than Holyfield and still be standing so don't see him getting knocked out that easily. Stylistically how does the Cruiserweight Holyfield rip Marciano apart.

Holy was a better boxer. Better footwork and more varied punches. I believe that a good boxer would always beat a good brawler. Holy could do both equally well. Too clever for Rock.

If and in the case of Holyfield it's a big IF and he did stick to boxing then he would beat Marciano but he very rarely did. In an all out brawl the Rock would come out on top.

imperialghosty wrote:If and in the case of Holyfield it's a big IF and he did stick to boxing then he would beat Marciano but he very rarely did. In an all out brawl the Rock would come out on top.

Holy never got decked by a cruiser. Their chins were comparable.

Holy threw better combinations even in a brawl. In a brawl or boxing, I'd back Holy 99% of the time. Rock was too slow,too crude and too predictable. Zero footowrk as if he were on train tracks. He offered nothing other than a puncher's chance to deter or beat Holy.

We'll have to agree to disagree, Holyfield didn't face anyone at Cruiserweight who hit anywhere near as hard as Marciano. Holyfield had a tendency to brawl where footwork isn't very important nor is throwing fancy combinations if your opponent is hitting you with hurtful punches

He has fought and beaten bigger and better fighters than Rock has done. And you cant discount his career at heavy. Arguably he was a better cruiser than heavy.

You do discount his career at Heavyweight because he wasn't a cruiserweight then whereas the guys mentioned all weighed within the cruiserweight during their Heavyweight careers.

He also never beat anyone rated as highly as Marciano is, rated as the 12th best boxer of all time by the ring magazine

So therefore you have to rely on Rock's opponents who were cruisers? Hang on, other than an ancient Louis, which opponent of Rock weighed over 190lbs?

I disagree with the Ring. My opinion based on what I have sene of both boxers. Some idiot so called experts also put Louis above Ali. Bert Sugar is one I believe.

I'll value his opinion over yours anyday, you seem to think what you say goes it does not. The majority of his opposition weighed over 190lbs most notably Walcott

I believe Louis weighed under 200 when he KO'd Schmeling. Head to head that's the greatest cruiser of all time for my money.

If you look at what Holyfield and Marciano did at haevyweight then it seems natural for me to conclude that Marciano carries the greater power.

When I consider how the fight would pan out then I think it has to favour Marciano as there are likely to be plenty of exchanges and plenty of trading which I can only see suiting Marciano. I have never really seen Holyfield dominate or even attempt to dominate a fight from the outside. Other than occaisions such as against Bowe when he was being bullied on the inside or against Quawi when he needed a breather. His style has always been up close and personal and he would find Marciano a willing customer.

Holyfield just comes off second best in this fight for me as although he has a big heart and a good chin, he would be up against ferocious punching power against a fighter who was at his best when in his opponents face. The power and relentless style of Marciano coupled with Holyfields own tendancy to mix it up would lead me to believe Marciano wears him down and forces a stoppage late on.

As generalizations go, the old boxing adage that ' swarmer beats boxer beats slugger beats swarmer ' isn't a bad one. Think Frazier - Ali - Foreman - Frazier and we have a pretty good example. None of these adages or theories is ever infallible, of course, but this one does at least have some historical proof, and where a weight cap exists I believe that it is particularly relevant.

Walcott was a boxer deluxe and he hit plenty hard enough to boot. No doubt whatsoever that he was ahead against Marciano first time out, but there's equally no doubt, for those who have seen the entire fight, that this was no ' beat down ' or ' shut out.' Marciano had good spells during the fight, also, and eventually his swarming pressure prevailed. Walcott MIGHT have been a wee bit careless in getting caught, but it's just as plausible to argue that Marciano's pressure and workrate created the opening and that a tiring Jersey Joe simply couldn't fend him off any longer.

Holyfield is an excellent boxer / fighter, but he doesn't have the silky skills of Jersey Joe and, like it or not, there have been times when his stamina has been questioned. A Marciano v Holyfield fight would likely be a tear up, in my opinion, and Marciano carries the superior wallop, is every bit as strong as Holy - probably stronger at 190lb. - has a comparable chin, higher workrate and, POSSIBLY, better stamina. Holyfield, ever the warrior, could win, but I'd make Marciano a clear favourite.

Best style to beat Rocky would be that of a slugger such as Foreman or a fighter with a similar style and strategy to Rocky's own, with a punch to match and a bit more refinement. Jack Dempsey would be a pretty good example of the latter.

As to the greatest cruiser issue, I'd tend to discount Johnson and Louis, since they normally hovered either side of 200lb., and since - more importantly, for me - it makes it a darned sight easier to sort them out ! Colonial Lion's pick of Tunney is persuasive, but I'd probably go for Dempsey, at his absolute best, to rule the roost overall, even with the caveat that Tunney might always have had Jack's number. At 190lb., Dempsey was a force of nature. A box of coils and springs, difficult to hit cleanly, with savage intent, snarling aggression and tremendous punching power in either hand. In essence, he was a 190lb. Mike Tyson with a much stronger mental make up. Too fast out of the blocks for Marciano, ( who was a bit of a slow starter, ) fast enough to catch Corbett or Fitzsimmons, etc., etc., I really can't think of anybody who would be more formidable at cruiser.

As a postscript to my post above, I'd reckon a Dempsey v Sam Langford scrap at cruiser to be one of the most compelling fantasy fights from the entire history of boxing, and extremely difficult to call.

These are my three picks...First, even though he was considered a HW, Peter Jackson was around the 14 stone mark so technically, he could now be classed as a CW. Considering Jackson was one of the greatest unsung HW of any era, I'm going to suggest that he'd also have been competitive at CW.

Secondly, I'm going to suggest Floyd Patterson would have been widely regarded as one of the best ever CW had the division existed when he was active.


My final pick is slightly more cynical. Given the proliferation of catchweights and stupidly prohibitive stipulations, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that in four years time, the greatest ever CW will be Manny Pacquiao

DAVE667 wrote:My final pick is slightly more cynical. Given the proliferation of catchweights and stupidly prohibitive stipulations, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that in four years time, the greatest ever CW will be Manny Pacquiao

Pacquiao versus Lebedev for the undisputed Cruiserweight title, 2015, at a 167 lb catchweight, anyone?

Holyfield was a beast at Crusier, and defo no.1 to fight in that weight class. I think he'd push the likes of Charles and Marciano hard and beat them more often than not.

Punch Hard? Prove it

DAVE667 wrote:These are my three picks...First, even though he was considered a HW, Peter Jackson was around the 14 stone mark so technically, he could now be classed as a CW. Considering Jackson was one of the greatest unsung HW of any era, I'm going to suggest that he'd also have been competitive at CW.

Secondly, I'm going to suggest Floyd Patterson would have been widely regarded as one of the best ever CW had the division existed when he was active.


My final pick is slightly more cynical. Given the proliferation of catchweights and stupidly prohibitive stipulations, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that in four years time, the greatest ever CW will be Manny Pacquiao

Dave, you might be interested to know that historian Tracy Callis, who is both a member of the IBRO and an elector for the Canastota Hall of Fame, has Jackson in his top ten cruisers.

I have a cracking article about Jackson on my hard drive which I'd love to pass on to you, but it's too long to reproduce here and I don't have the link. I'll have a look at my favourite ' boxing haunts ' to see if I can find it again and, if I do, I'll post it for you here. Needless to say, it's NOT the one to which I have pointed you several times, ( to your undying mirth at my forgetfulness, ) previously.

Cheers Windy, you are one of life's true gents.

Trawling through a 2nd hand bookshop in Harrogate at the weekend (yes, I had to apply to get across the border) and I saw a book by A G Hales. Sadly, it wasn't the ultra rare "Black Prince Peter - The Romantic Life of Peter Jackson" but for a split second I nearly squealed like a small child at the thought of picking up such a rarity for a few pounds.





(whispers to self) "I bet it IS that same bloody link he keeps posting!"

DAVE667 wrote:Cheers Windy, you are one of life's true gents.

Trawling through a 2nd hand bookshop in Harrogate at the weekend (yes, I had to apply to get across the border) and I saw a book by A G Hales. Sadly, it wasn't the ultra rare "Black Prince Peter - The Romantic Life of Peter Jackson" but for a split second I nearly squealed like a small child at the thought of picking up such a rarity for a few pounds.





(whispers to self) "I bet it IS that same bloody link he keeps posting!"

You're welcome, Dave. I'm on it as we speak.

If I can't find the link I'll extract some of the best bits and post it as an article, but if you give me a day or two I might just find the darned thing wholesale.

And no, it bloody well isn't the same one !

Colonial Lion wrote:If you look at what Holyfield and Marciano did at haevyweight then it seems natural for me to conclude that Marciano carries the greater power.

When I consider how the fight would pan out then I think it has to favour Marciano as there are likely to be plenty of exchanges and plenty of trading which I can only see suiting Marciano. I have never really seen Holyfield dominate or even attempt to dominate a fight from the outside. Other than occaisions such as against Bowe when he was being bullied on the inside or against Quawi when he needed a breather. His style has always been up close and personal and he would find Marciano a willing customer.

Holyfield just comes off second best in this fight for me as although he has a big heart and a good chin, he would be up against ferocious punching power against a fighter who was at his best when in his opponents face. The power and relentless style of Marciano coupled with Holyfields own tendancy to mix it up would lead me to believe Marciano wears him down and forces a stoppage late on.

Why would it be natural for you to conclude that? Holy fought bigger, stronger, faster and more skilled heavies than anyone Rocky fought. Holy was faster, better more accurate puncher, much better footwork and body movement. All Rocky had was a crouch and a big punch. But Holy took what Tyson had to offer and came back for more. I dare say that Tyson punches harder that Rock. Ditto Foreman who at that stage of his career was probably the same speed as Rock but with a much superior punch power.

Either way it would be a clear victory for Holy either by wide UD of KO. Rocky was simply not that good imo.