Khan puts his money where his mouth is....

First topic message reminder :

Why couldn't he just stuff it all in his mouth quite literally? Khan has decided to formerly appeal, oh dear.

"Stop pushing him away Khan" - Everyone heard him getting warned, is just the desperate act of a sore loser.

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/blog/170809-10000-check-makes-it-official-khan-appeals-peterson-verdict

coxy0001 wrote:
We can have a little side bet of leaving the forum for a week

Do it az. Coxy has already had his bum slapped once in this fashion.

How long you planning on dining out on that one Tina?

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:
We can have a little side bet of leaving the forum for a week

Do it az. Coxy has already had his bum slapped once in this fashion.

Course I'll do it. Khan wont let me down.

Sorry but i'm going to take the credit for the Groves and Degale fight, your initial opinion was Degale to win by very early knockout but the changed your opinion when I suggested watching a Groves fight may help, it was also not met with derision. Also very well done for only mentioning the fights that you predicted right, if we all did that we'd be millionaires.

rowley wrote:How long you planning on dining out on that one Tina?

Hadn't thought about it. Would you like me to stop then?

The mod team request you'd extend the bet to a month

Az, can't wait to see you in UCPL then.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

rowley wrote:How long you planning on dining out on that one Tina?

Hadn't thought about it. Would you like me to stop then?

Not really, whenever I am reminded of a week without Coxy I find myself smiling.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Sorry but i'm going to take the credit for the Groves and Degale fight, your initial opinion was Degale to win by very early knockout but the changed your opinion when I suggested watching a Groves fight may help, it was also not met with derision. Also very well done for only mentioning the fights that you predicted right, if we all did that we'd be millionaires.

I thought you had me on the foe option? I said it wouldn't last long. Another successful prediction.

Sorry but recall you ever changing my opinion on anything. But if it makes you feel happy that you think you did, then knock yourself out.

oxring wrote:The mod team request you'd extend the bet to a month

Hmmm. I wonder what your motives are? You'll miss us anyway.

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:The mod team request you'd extend the bet to a month

Hmmm. I wonder what your motives are? You'll miss us anyway.

Like a dose of herpes.

I must be a boxing oracle for I predicted Groves to beat Degale, fear me in the prediction league.

rowley wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

rowley wrote:How long you planning on dining out on that one Tina?

Hadn't thought about it. Would you like me to stop then?

Not really, whenever I am reminded of a week without Coxy I find myself smiling.

If i get a new job i've gone for you'll barely be hearing from me during the working week, due to find out today or tomorrow.

Is that the computer consultancy thing?

oxring wrote:Is that the computer consultancy thing?

Could be that, could be golf pro, could be coach to the England Cricket team, not sure Apple have replaced Steve Jobs yet, so difficult to say, such are the options open to such a multi faceted genius.

oxring wrote:Is that the computer consultancy thing?

Web design & development

oxring wrote:Is that the computer consultancy thing?

Paper-round.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:Is that the computer consultancy thing?

Paper-round.

Just jealous.

coxy0001 wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

oxring wrote:Is that the computer consultancy thing?

Paper-round.

Just jealous.

Don't spend your £12,000 all at once.

You can earn £12,000 from a paper round? Why the hell did I bother coming to uni? That's a ridiculous wage for some kid on a bike throwing papers into gardens.

£6000 actually, but at least there's no tax.

emancipator wrote:£6000 actually, but at least there's no tax.

More like it. How many pairs of trainers from JD sports do they realistically need

oxring wrote:You can earn £12,000 from a paper round? Why the hell did I bother coming to uni? That's a ridiculous wage for some kid on a bike throwing papers into gardens.

I meant his new, super-duper website job, Oxy. I agree on the why bother going to uni bit though, waste of time. Although you do have the most spectacular vocabulary on here and that is something to be proud of.

You're too kind Tino, although I believe that the captain and Manos lay better claims to that illustrious title than myself.

On a different note - £6k is still far too much to pay for a paper round. Unless you're delivering every paper in a county along with deliveries of household commodities. Economic downturn, tightening belts etc.

oxring wrote:You're too kind Tino, although I believe that the captain and Manos lay better claims to that illustrious title than myself.

On a different note - £6k is still far too much to pay for a paper round. Unless you're delivering every paper in a county along with deliveries of household commodities. Economic downturn, tightening belts etc.

I used to get £11.50 a week for mine. I don't think they get £6000. emancipator is a liar.

azania wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:I think Khan would have a lot more backing for his talk of a robbery/appeal if the fight did actually reflect a robbery in most people's eyes. But, to be honest:

1/ He didn't dominate the fight at all. It was really close (I had Khan 113-112). Most people have no real problem with the scoring.

2/ He was holding, pushing, and putting pressure on the neck repeatedly. He was warned repeatedly. I can sympathise with people saying that points deductions for pushing were harsh, but I would have had a point off him for the way he kept pushing down on Peterson's neck. That is not a valid form of defence, and he did it continuously. He did it because he was under pressure and he can't defend on the inside.

3/ Regardless of what GBP are telling him now, Khan was moaning about this from the start. Fair enough that he's aggrieved. But, we've seen far greater robberies in boxing. Imagine every one appealed. Plus, you get the impression that he really does agree with the GBP 'party line' on this.

4/ The points deductions stemmed from Khan's inability to handle himself on the inside - I think there's a strong perception amongst boxing fans that he's seeking to find a scapegoat for his loss rather than address his obvious shortcomings.

The 'money where his mouth is' quote came from the original article in the ring. Regardless of whether Khan is a puppet on the end of GBP strings or not, this whole situation is only going to reinforce the already held perception of Khan as the over-protected golden boy who has glaring fragilities, but is too arrogant to notice or acknowledge them, instead preferring to think of himself as superstar. This is a reputation that's been building for a while, and I think it's the main reason why Khan is not particularly likeable. I didn't mind it so much when he produced the goods in the ring, but the gaps in his game have been exposed a few times now, and he'd get much more respect if he talked about addressing them rather than (even tacitly) going along with this robbery/appeal charade.

Good post. Point by point response.
1) Agreed. Close fight which for me Khan edged. No robbery but any fighter on the wrong end of that decision will claim robbery. Mostly all have done and will refuse to acknowledge they lost. Hagler is a prime example.
2) Agreed. Harsh to deduct points. Any boxer would be livid. Khan is no exception and should not be made as if he is an exception when a very harsh judgement goes against him.
3) Greater robberies are irrelevant. Hagler/SRL was razor thin and I scored it to Hagler. To this day it still grates on him and whenever asked he claims he won. All boxers will say the same thing. The appeal is wrong on all counts. Win the title in the ring. But the appeal is not onnly on the closeness of the decision. I listed some of the reasons earlier including lost cards etc.
4) Khan is not as good as he thinks he is. I back Peterson to win any rematch. But show me a boxer who will own up to his boxing inadequacies and I'll show up a boxer not destined for great things.

How is Khan being over-protected. He fought Maidana, Judah, Peterson. Ducked by Team Bradle. He's sought the best in the division and called the best in the division above his. It shows a man wanting to prove himself against the very best. Credit should be given for him there and not ridicule for being arrogant in calling out Floyd (as has been said here).

Boxers have huge egos. They need it. If they dont have it, they should leave boxing immediately. They have to have incredible self belief and that they are the best there is. Otherwise they may as well become journeymen or quit.

Why should he address his weaknesses in public? No other boxer does that nowadays.

Some responses...

My point 3: Accepted that boxers losing a close decision have a right to feel aggrieved. The difference is that many of them either a) don't moan about it (at least not for too long), or b) don't lodge an appeal to get a legitimately close decision overturned. The point of contention here seems to be that you think GBP are pushing this whole appeal thing, and Khan is along for the ride, whereas I think Khan is fully behind the whole thing, and is displaying some sour grapes at a perhaps controversial, but ultimately justifiable decision. This is difficult to tell either way - but that's my perception.

Your later points: Perhaps 'protected' was the wrong term. I've been supportive of Khan in the past in terms of the fights he's taken in the last 2 years. But Khan is definitely in that bracket of boxers that has been groomed for stardom. Fans expect him to prove himself. I think they rightly question his pursuit of Mayweather due to his performances. Khan doesn't help himself here when he has implied that he's on that 'superstar level'. He's clearly not. He's within his rights to promote himself. Fans are within their rights to say he has misplaced arrogance. There are so many people that have this perception of Khan - just look at the responses on this board - and there is at least some basis for that perception existing amongst boxing fans.

In terms of addressing weaknesses - I think the problem here is that they are, in many ways, at the crux of the issue. Khan got points deducted for pushing and holding because of the weaknesses in his inside game. Khan should perhaps realise this, but instead he says it was all the fault of the referee. I simply don't respect the way he has handled the whole situation, and I can't say your defence of Khan has changed my mind on this.

I've been a Khan supporter in the past, but this situation, coupled with past behaviour that I have previously let him off with, has soured my opinion of him. The point of the thread was to say that Khan is continuing with his appeal, and that he is making himself look bad because of it. You say this is driven by GBP. I say Khan is fully behind it as well. You say boxers have the right to feel aggrieved at close decisions. I say, yes fair enough, but if they want to start lodging appeals and blaming refs over a close battle in which their flaws were exposed then I have the right to dislike them for it. Your point about boxers all being arrogant is also fair, but it doesn't stop me from having built an opinion of Khan as a bit of a spoiled brat. It appears to me that a lot of people have also built that opinion.

Right. To drag this back to topic (having duly slapped myself on the wrists for taking it off topic):

Do we believe that this appeal will be more likely to succeed than his previous appeal? He was warned, for an offence that is in the codified rules and then points were deducted. His grounds for an appeal seem to be the extremely dubious - "well - it is against the rules but that rule is never enforced".

He continues to carry himself with the grace of a particularly awful toddler from that Supernanny show and it is my belief that were this appeal to succeed it would be a bigger slap in the face for boxing and more damaging than high profile robberies - like Lara-Williams.

Robberies at least get people talking about the sport - whereas this? It shows that if you're a golden goose and you get plucked clean - you can still keep your titles because you're too big to fail.

Such theories didn't work for Lehman bros and they shouldn't work for Khan.

I nearly got a job in mk - 91 hours a week 11.56 an hour. Basically keeping gypsies and yobbos out of the car park and patrolling the building. £950 odd for wearing a fluorescent jacket and carrying a radio and a torch. Quite probably the most overpaid man in the uk. Retired soldier got there before me, was gutted.

oxring wrote:Right. To drag this back to topic (having duly slapped myself on the wrists for taking it off topic):

Do we believe that this appeal will be more likely to succeed than his previous appeal? He was warned, for an offence that is in the codified rules and then points were deducted. His grounds for an appeal seem to be the extremely dubious - "well - it is against the rules but that rule is never enforced".

He continues to carry himself with the grace of a particularly awful toddler from that Supernanny show and it is my belief that were this appeal to succeed it would be a bigger slap in the face for boxing and more damaging than high profile robberies - like Lara-Williams.

Robberies at least get people talking about the sport - whereas this? It shows that if you're a golden goose and you get plucked clean - you can still keep your titles because you're too big to fail.

Such theories didn't work for Lehman bros and they shouldn't work for Khan.

Just about sums up the majority of the informed boxing public's perception as far as I can see.

oxring wrote:Right. To drag this back to topic (having duly slapped myself on the wrists for taking it off topic):

Do we believe that this appeal will be more likely to succeed than his previous appeal? He was warned, for an offence that is in the codified rules and then points were deducted. His grounds for an appeal seem to be the extremely dubious - "well - it is against the rules but that rule is never enforced".

He continues to carry himself with the grace of a particularly awful toddler from that Supernanny show and it is my belief that were this appeal to succeed it would be a bigger slap in the face for boxing and more damaging than high profile robberies - like Lara-Williams.

Robberies at least get people talking about the sport - whereas this? It shows that if you're a golden goose and you get plucked clean - you can still keep your titles because you're too big to fail.

Such theories didn't work for Lehman bros and they shouldn't work for Khan.

If that was all GBP are appealing against then it would be silly. But as you know, it isn't. trying to convince yourself that it is, is neither here nor there.

He carries himself as any boxer would do and as previous boxers have done. Ask Hagler is he beat SRL and guess what his answer would be. 15 years ago if you had asked Archie Moore of his opinion of the ref in the first Rocky fight his response would be worse than Khans.

Lastly I hope the appeal fails as it should.

Azania - flat question - what are Khan's legitimate grounds for appeal.

azania wrote: He carries himself as any boxer would do and as previous boxers have done

Can't say I agree with this. While I seen many boxers complaining, I haven't seen too many enlisting the full support of their promotional company and lodging an appeal to have what was a legitimately close decision overturned. Appeals of this kind are normally reserved for widely acknowledged robberies, if at all. I've also seen many boxers act with far more dignity.

Boxtthis wrote:

azania wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:I think Khan would have a lot more backing for his talk of a robbery/appeal if the fight did actually reflect a robbery in most people's eyes. But, to be honest:

1/ He didn't dominate the fight at all. It was really close (I had Khan 113-112). Most people have no real problem with the scoring.

2/ He was holding, pushing, and putting pressure on the neck repeatedly. He was warned repeatedly. I can sympathise with people saying that points deductions for pushing were harsh, but I would have had a point off him for the way he kept pushing down on Peterson's neck. That is not a valid form of defence, and he did it continuously. He did it because he was under pressure and he can't defend on the inside.

3/ Regardless of what GBP are telling him now, Khan was moaning about this from the start. Fair enough that he's aggrieved. But, we've seen far greater robberies in boxing. Imagine every one appealed. Plus, you get the impression that he really does agree with the GBP 'party line' on this.

4/ The points deductions stemmed from Khan's inability to handle himself on the inside - I think there's a strong perception amongst boxing fans that he's seeking to find a scapegoat for his loss rather than address his obvious shortcomings.

The 'money where his mouth is' quote came from the original article in the ring. Regardless of whether Khan is a puppet on the end of GBP strings or not, this whole situation is only going to reinforce the already held perception of Khan as the over-protected golden boy who has glaring fragilities, but is too arrogant to notice or acknowledge them, instead preferring to think of himself as superstar. This is a reputation that's been building for a while, and I think it's the main reason why Khan is not particularly likeable. I didn't mind it so much when he produced the goods in the ring, but the gaps in his game have been exposed a few times now, and he'd get much more respect if he talked about addressing them rather than (even tacitly) going along with this robbery/appeal charade.

Good post. Point by point response.
1) Agreed. Close fight which for me Khan edged. No robbery but any fighter on the wrong end of that decision will claim robbery. Mostly all have done and will refuse to acknowledge they lost. Hagler is a prime example.
2) Agreed. Harsh to deduct points. Any boxer would be livid. Khan is no exception and should not be made as if he is an exception when a very harsh judgement goes against him.
3) Greater robberies are irrelevant. Hagler/SRL was razor thin and I scored it to Hagler. To this day it still grates on him and whenever asked he claims he won. All boxers will say the same thing. The appeal is wrong on all counts. Win the title in the ring. But the appeal is not onnly on the closeness of the decision. I listed some of the reasons earlier including lost cards etc.
4) Khan is not as good as he thinks he is. I back Peterson to win any rematch. But show me a boxer who will own up to his boxing inadequacies and I'll show up a boxer not destined for great things.

How is Khan being over-protected. He fought Maidana, Judah, Peterson. Ducked by Team Bradle. He's sought the best in the division and called the best in the division above his. It shows a man wanting to prove himself against the very best. Credit should be given for him there and not ridicule for being arrogant in calling out Floyd (as has been said here).

Boxers have huge egos. They need it. If they dont have it, they should leave boxing immediately. They have to have incredible self belief and that they are the best there is. Otherwise they may as well become journeymen or quit.

Why should he address his weaknesses in public? No other boxer does that nowadays.

Some responses...

My point 3: Accepted that boxers losing a close decision have a right to feel aggrieved. The difference is that many of them either a) don't moan about it (at least not for too long), or b) don't lodge an appeal to get a legitimately close decision overturned. The point of contention here seems to be that you think GBP are pushing this whole appeal thing, and Khan is along for the ride, whereas I think Khan is fully behind the whole thing, and is displaying some sour grapes at a perhaps controversial, but ultimately justifiable decision. This is difficult to tell either way - but that's my perception.

Your later points: Perhaps 'protected' was the wrong term. I've been supportive of Khan in the past in terms of the fights he's taken in the last 2 years. But Khan is definitely in that bracket of boxers that has been groomed for stardom. Fans expect him to prove himself. I think they rightly question his pursuit of Mayweather due to his performances. Khan doesn't help himself here when he has implied that he's on that 'superstar level'. He's clearly not. He's within his rights to promote himself. Fans are within their rights to say he has misplaced arrogance. There are so many people that have this perception of Khan - just look at the responses on this board - and there is at least some basis for that perception existing amongst boxing fans.

In terms of addressing weaknesses - I think the problem here is that they are, in many ways, at the crux of the issue. Khan got points deducted for pushing and holding because of the weaknesses in his inside game. Khan should perhaps realise this, but instead he says it was all the fault of the referee. I simply don't respect the way he has handled the whole situation, and I can't say your defence of Khan has changed my mind on this.

I've been a Khan supporter in the past, but this situation, coupled with past behaviour that I have previously let him off with, has soured my opinion of him. The point of the thread was to say that Khan is continuing with his appeal, and that he is making himself look bad because of it. You say this is driven by GBP. I say Khan is fully behind it as well. You say boxers have the right to feel aggrieved at close decisions. I say, yes fair enough, but if they want to start lodging appeals and blaming refs over a close battle in which their flaws were exposed then I have the right to dislike them for it. Your point about boxers all being arrogant is also fair, but it doesn't stop me from having built an opinion of Khan as a bit of a spoiled brat. It appears to me that a lot of people have also built that opinion.

Responses as they appear.

Hagler near on had a mental breakdown due to the result of the SRL fight. He complained bitterly for 25 years to anyone who would listen. For the last time, the grounds of the appeal is not based solely on the closeness of the judging. There are about 6 other grounds of which the decision of the judges is one of them insofar as one judge's card went walkies apparently.

Yep, Khan was groomed for big things. So was Ortiz and now Canelo. Boxers get groomed. At least Khan didn't quit or is fighting no-bodies and claiming to be a world champ.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. But my main point is that all other boxers would do exactly what Khan is currently doing. Can you tell me what JMM said after the Pac fight? Do you think he has accepted the decision? Hatton still copmplains about Cortez when asked. Norton still thiks he deserved the nod against Ali and Holmes. Graceless and classless or normal behaviour of boxers who lose close decisions. Name me one boxer who has accepted defeat in a close fight? Hearns blames having his legs massaged for his Hagler loss. You are requesting that Khan behaves in a manner displayed by no other boxer.

Yep, Khan has a lot of haters. I started a thread some time back asking that question. He does and says exactly as others boxers do and say yet some have an inbuilt hatred of him.

Khan isn't a world champion so to claim otherwise would be outright lying.

No not all other boxers go to stupid appeals that is where you just don't seem to understand yet insist on going around in circles until people get bored of the discussion and can't be bothered.

Christ almighty they wouldn't be doing the same thing at all, they may complain about the decision but the thing that irritated all of us is the graceless nature of him appealing the decision. Which other boxer has ever appealled against a decision before?

oxring wrote:Azania - flat question - what are Khan's legitimate grounds for appeal.

Khan isn't launching any appeal. But if ou ask me what GBP's legit grounds for an appeal, I would say they have none. As I said, I dont support the appeal or the initial complaint.

Boxtthis wrote:

azania wrote: He carries himself as any boxer would do and as previous boxers have done

Can't say I agree with this. While I seen many boxers complaining, I haven't seen too many enlisting the full support of their promotional company and lodging an appeal to have what was a legitimately close decision overturned. Appeals of this kind are normally reserved for widely acknowledged robberies, if at all. I've also seen many boxers act with far more dignity.

Is the appeal solely on the closeness of the decision?

Az you are still either missing the point or deliberately ignoring it, he is not as you claim doing what every other victim of a close decision does and moaning, he is appealing and I'm sorry this it is all golden boy simply doesn't wash, if Khan did not want to appeal it would not happen.

This is not the same as whining, did Reid appeal against Ottke? He had points deducted and had to endure far worse than Khan from the ref. This whole idea he is doing something every fighter does is simply not the case, yes plenty whinge but how many appeals against results have been issued in the last 25 years?

rowley wrote:Az you are still either missing the point or deliberately ignoring it, he is not as you claim doing what every other victim of a close decision does and moaning, he is appealing and I'm sorry this it is all golden boy simply doesn't wash, if Khan did not want to appeal it would not happen.

This is not the same as whining, did Reid appeal against Ottke? He had points deducted and had to endure far worse than Khan from the ref. This whole idea he is doing something every fighter does is simply not the case, yes plenty whinge but how many appeals against results have been issued in the last 25 years?

Unfortunately rowley it is you and many others here who seem to be missing the point. The appeal is NOT solely on the closeness of the decision. I dont think it is about the decision reached by the judges on a round by round basis. Everyone accepts close fights can go either way. Oscar is a prime example with Sturm and Tito fights.

You guys seem hung up on the appeal being only based on the closeness of the decision. It isn't and never has been.

rowley wrote:Az you are still either missing the point or deliberately ignoring it, he is not as you claim doing what every other victim of a close decision does and moaning, he is appealing and I'm sorry this it is all golden boy simply doesn't wash, if Khan did not want to appeal it would not happen.

This is not the same as whining, did Reid appeal against Ottke? He had points deducted and had to endure far worse than Khan from the ref. This whole idea he is doing something every fighter does is simply not the case, yes plenty whinge but how many appeals against results have been issued in the last 25 years?

The latter I suspect.

Az, your previous thread suggested race/ethinicity was the reason which was shameful as was your pitiful refusal to accept he's just not likeable and people happen to think he's a prat.

And what are those 6 other grounds exactly?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Christ almighty they wouldn't be doing the same thing at all, they may complain about the decision but the thing that irritated all of us is the graceless nature of him appealing the decision. Which other boxer has ever appealled against a decision before?

Calm down and dont get your knickers in a twist.

Name a boxer who appealed a decision? Tyson. Appealed the Douglas decision ie long count.

I have made no reference whatsoever for the reasons for him appealing, only that he is appealing and it is not the lack of willingness to accept the loss that grates with most it is launching of the appeal which rankles because it smacks of a guy who lost a close fight against an opponent he should be beating handily refusing to accept it.

And Tyson copped Flack for it Az.

You're being slippery as an eel again. Defending the appeal by saying it comes from GBP - but when we ask for the legitimacy of the appeal you say you don't think its legitimate.

If its not legitimate - its not legitimate. No more needs to be said, surely?

rowley wrote:Az you are still either missing the point or deliberately ignoring it, he is not as you claim doing what every other victim of a close decision does and moaning, he is appealing and I'm sorry this it is all golden boy simply doesn't wash, if Khan did not want to appeal it would not happen.

This is not the same as whining, did Reid appeal against Ottke? He had points deducted and had to endure far worse than Khan from the ref. This whole idea he is doing something every fighter does is simply not the case, yes plenty whinge but how many appeals against results have been issued in the last 25 years?

Also, the part in that Khas is doing what other boxers have done is regarding that other boxers complain loudly that they've been robbed when liosing a close decision.

As for reid, once again he was right not to appeal. Though I believe the bbbc lodged a complaint. Lastly GBP ARE WRONG IN THIS COMPLAINT.

Tyson didn't rant off about it to everyone in earshot though did he as has been mentioned already today.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Christ almighty they wouldn't be doing the same thing at all, they may complain about the decision but the thing that irritated all of us is the graceless nature of him appealing the decision. Which other boxer has ever appealled against a decision before?

Calm down and dont get your knickers in a twist.

Name a boxer who appealed a decision? Tyson. Appealed the Douglas decision ie long count.

No he didn't King did remember?

SugarRayRussell wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Christ almighty they wouldn't be doing the same thing at all, they may complain about the decision but the thing that irritated all of us is the graceless nature of him appealing the decision. Which other boxer has ever appealled against a decision before?

Calm down and dont get your knickers in a twist.

Name a boxer who appealed a decision? Tyson. Appealed the Douglas decision ie long count.

No he didn't King did remember?

Gamesetmatch post that one.

Az I simply cannot buy into this idea Khan is being dragged into the appeal against his will, you know as well as me if he turned round to Golden Boy and said I don't want to appeal, get me a rematch and I'll settle things in the ring there would be no appeal.

It's all falling on deaf ears....