Saxons Squad for the new year?

OKay we're pretty sure what the make up of the !st team Squad should be....

What about the Saxons?

PLayers like Alex Waller? Marler? etc

Plenty of choices for hooker....Haywood, George, Lindsay?

Second Row....Launchbury?

Back Rows...Nuttall? Wallace?

What about the backs?

Should Wade be in the seniors or Saxons?

I'd like to see James Fitzpatrick included for some serious power at 12....

Everybody youd hoped was in the EPS probably

How about this team -

1.Sheridan
2.Chuter
3.Bell
4.Shaw
5.Deacon
6.Worsley
7.Fourie
8.Waldrom
9.Perry
10.Andy Goode
11.Varndell
12.Hape
13.Erinle
14.Sackey
15.Balshaw

Beshocked -

You cannot throw all the kids in together! Experience counts for something you know.

Joke aside why not something like

1.Marler
2.George
3.PDJ
4.Parling
5.Launchbury
6.Nutley
7.Wallace
8.Fearns
9.Spencer
10.Burns
11.Wade
12.Twelvetrees
13.Trinder
14.Short
15.Goode

Paul Sackey would actually complain that he should have been in the senior squad if that happened

Some Interesting choices Beshocked

Would you not see Parling as a senior squad member if fit?

As i've mentioned..i think Fitzpatricks performances have been worthy of a starting Saxons spot at 12....he's played some intelligent rugby aswell as powerful...

Geordiefalcon who is fitzpatrick?

No I don't see Parling as worthy of the EPS. Not yet anyway. I would pick Robson and Garvey ahead of him at lock.

Marler is one of those I am unsure of. His scrummaging isn't brilliant.

Anyone coming down to SP to watch them play the Wolfhounds? Got me tickets and it looks like it's going to be quite full. Actually going to be seated for this one, me knees can't take the terraces and the January cold!

Beshocked

I agree with you on Marler....a work in progress that one.

James Fitzpatrick is an inside centre (with the physical appearance of Tindall actually) who has been playing some great stuff for us...6'1 around 17st...24yr old. A real bruiser...but with a bit of intelligence...

I hope he keeps this form up....

Waste of time putting Parling in the Saxons. He is good enough for the EPS and at 28 doesn't need Saxons experience. If he isn't chosen for the EPS he might as well be left at Tigers and a younger player given a go. Kitchener, Slater or similar.

I'd find place for Trinder in the EPS as back up to Manu and promote Joseph from LI if he's fit. If he's not either Lowe or Fitzgerald.

I'd like to see the Sale props Thomas and Imoliek in there somewhere (bench perhaps) as they are certainly talents. Particulalry Thomas.

Beschocked no Farrell?

Thanks for the info geordie falcon oh right he's a newcastle player. That's why I haven't heard much of him. My AP knowledge database is not as good as many others.

Maybe it's a wrong approach on my part but I generally focus on the players playing for the best sides.

If he's good and young it will only be a matter of time before other clubs come knocking on the door as usual.....

Poor Newcastle.


Sam I would put Farrell in the EPS for experience. I know you think Parling is great - yes I know he outperformed an out of sorts half fit Borthwick over a year ago and did well against an erratic Saracens lineout on that day. He simply hasnt shown enough in my opinion since then. Certainly not more than Garvey and Robson.

I picked Trinder because I would have Lowe in the EPS. Though it matters not - either of them would be fine.

Who is Fitzgerald? I thought he was an Irish international.

I agree with formerly known as Sam, if Parling is not in the EPS then no point having him the Saxons for experience, may as well leave him in the AP and bring a younger player into the second row. I would however have him in the EPS. Providing everyone is fit I would like to see

1 - Marler
2 - Lindsey
3 - Wilson
4 - Robson
5 - Launchbury
6 - Gibson*
7 - Wallace
8 - Ferns*
9 - Dickson*
10 - Burns
11 - Joeseph
12 - Twelvetrees
13 - Trindler*
14 - Wade
15 - Goode

Bench - George, Thomas, Gaskell, Nutley, Spencer, Clegg, Short

*Denotes players who I would like to see in the EPS but probably wouldn't make the match day 22.

B91212 personally I think that's a complete and utter waste having 3 young Sarries on the bench.

Might as well leave them out of the Saxons. Better for them to be in the AP than acting as waterboys.

Who is Fitzgerald?

meant Fitzpatrick.

He simply hasnt shown enough in my opinion since then

Well seeing as he missed all of last season injured he hasn't had much chance. Sparkling form for Tigers before Waldrom fell on his knee (enough to injure anybody). His performance agains the half fit Borthwick was at the end of a season where he'd taken the Tigers no 5 shirt away from an absolute savant at the lineout, Ben Kay. He's a top quality lineout option and simply brilliant at calling the lineout with great athleticism. Basically Borthwick with less bulk, more brains and athletic ability ball in hand. He needs some big games when he comes back from injury to force a call up though.

Sam I would put Farrell in the EPS for experience

Don't see the point in that. He's not good enough to play now and more time with Sarries and the Saxons will serve him better than watching Hodgson and Flood up close. He watches Hodgson up close weekly anyway.

I know you think Parling is the next Messiah - he'll be reborn on Christmas day as the 2nd son of God. Plus you are a biased Tigers fan. Proof is in the pudding. We'll have to see what he does when not injured.

He is not as good as Borthwick. He was fortunate that the coaches made a surprising botch up in that final.


I was thinking that Barritt and Farrell could take the inside centre spots. Obviously Farrell can cover fly half too.

beshocked wrote:Might as well leave them out of the Saxons. Better for them to be in the AP than acting as waterboys.

May as well leave everyone out of the Saxons - there's only the one game scheduled so far this season, and no more Churchill Cups in the summer. No signs of a separate saxons tour in the summer, more likely just an extended senior squad to play mid-week teams.

Saxons act as a contractual reserve to the EPS, but not much else. What experience will any player gain, apart from joining in some England training and a one-off game against the Wolfhounds?

Agree Dubble L Overate. The Saxons has lost it's usefulness.

If there are matches I would like to see them take on Romania,Georgia,Namibia and Russia.

He is not as good as Borthwick. He was fortunate that the coaches made a surprising botch up in that final.

No he's considerably better. Hence he took the shirt from Kay, the same Ben Kay who out played Borthwick at the RWC a season earlier and relegated him to the bench. I thought the difference between the carefully controlled lineout which was untouchable over the course of the AP 2010 winning season (and the whole season not one game) compared to the shambles that it was last season (Deacon held it together when fit but otherwise below average) was self evident.

No signs of a separate saxons tour in the summer

Probably due to player welfare. Otherwise it would be a very long season what with the RWC and extensive training camps last summer.

beshocked wrote:B91212 personally I think that's a complete and utter waste having 3 young Sarries on the bench.

Might as well leave them out of the Saxons. Better for them to be in the AP than acting as waterboys.

Fair point, although someone has to make up the numbers! In fairness it's only been because of injuries and international commitments that George and Spencer have played as much as they have so far this season, and if De Kock regains fitness before Feb then Spencer may have to make do with a bench spot at best (your coaching staff may decide Stringer is the better bench option until the end of Feb due to his experience). I notice Short has dropped out of the first 15 over the last couple of weeks, although he is still in the 22 (I agree that Wyles short start, rate him highly). Being an equal opportunities player thief, my own team (Saints) had players in the match day 22 (along with plenty in the main 22 as well).

Anyway there is no making you Sarries fans happy. First you complain because not enough of your players get the international recognition they deserve, then you complain that national teams are stealing them for their squads Agree with your idea of the Saxons playing the so called second tier nations - that would be good for everyone involved.

Sam Saracens had the best lineout last season. This was down to mainly Borthwick throughout the season running the lineout with Joubert as able back up and a much improved throwing effort from Brits.

No I don't think the Saracens lineout was the best because the amazing Parling was missing.

How many caps has Parling got for England?

Parling is overrated obviously by yourself. His claim to fame on your part is him doing well against a saracens lineout a lot worse then it is now.

Borthwick does a lot more than just run the lineout. His workrate his very impressive. He makes numerous tackles and his captaincy is admired by many.

Parling has not done enough to warrant an England call up. Simple as that really. You have to take the Tigers blinkers off.

beshocked wrote:I was thinking that Barritt and Farrell could take the inside centre spots. Obviously Farrell can cover fly half too.

This is the reason I would have Farrell in the EPS along with Barritt. Barritt should be nailed on to start at 12 in the 6N and in my opinion, at the moment Farrell is the second best option at IC. Just because they both play for the same team doesn't mean they are not the best players available.

B91212 wrote:

beshocked wrote:B91212 personally I think that's a complete and utter waste having 3 young Sarries on the bench.

Might as well leave them out of the Saxons. Better for them to be in the AP than acting as waterboys.

Fair point, although someone has to make up the numbers! In fairness it's only been because of injuries and international commitments that George and Spencer have played as much as they have so far this season, and if De Kock regains fitness before Feb then Spencer may have to make do with a bench spot at best (your coaching staff may decide Stringer is the better bench option until the end of Feb due to his experience). I notice Short has dropped out of the first 15 over the last couple of weeks, although he is still in the 22 (I agree that Wyles short start, rate him highly). Being an equal opportunities player thief, my own team (Saints) had players in the match day 22 (along with plenty in the main 22 as well).

Anyway there is no making you Sarries fans happy. First you complain because not enough of your players get the international recognition they deserve, then you complain that national teams are stealing them for their squads Agree with your idea of the Saxons playing the so called second tier nations - that would be good for everyone involved.

B91212 Saracens use rotation. I know that's a completely alien word to Northampton Saints. Saints' emphasis has been on the 1st XV leading to a very strong core that can beat anyone but leaves you vulnerable when one of your key men is unavailable. You are in the process of building strength in depth now as it has been so costly to your title aspirations. With the likes of Nutley,Elliot and Armitiev you have some players who can fill the breach when the England boys are on duty. It will bear fruit soon.

Short is in my opinion being rotated. I would happily bet he'll start against Quins. Nieto was also on the bench too. It's all about giving everyone gametime.

Glad we agree about Farrell. I think you can only be a no 2 at your club in a certain position and get into the England squad if you play for a certain club. Would happily be proved wrong.

I was thinking Farrell could come on as a sub at inside centre then Hodgson could come on at fly half. Farrell could take the kicking duties.

How many caps has Parling got for England?

None but he was injured during a training squad before summer friendlies. He was on the verge of his debut and had it cruely snatched away from him.

His claim to fame on your part is him doing well against a saracens lineout a lot worse then it is now.

No. That's the only game you've seen him in. He doesn't go in for fame he goes in for hard work and good rugby. Hence new comer of the year in 2009/10 and in 8 games this season he has a least one man of the match (might be two my memory isn't that good).

Parling has not done enough to warrant an England call up. Simple as that really. You have to take the Tigers blinkers off..

Less ranting more reading please, as I posted above; "He needs some big games when he comes back from injury to force a call up though."

beshocked

Parling is surely ahead of Garvey, Garvey has impressed during the RWC and hasn't stood out against top quality opposition. On the other hand Parling had an outstanding season, was a stand out forward in the 2010 final and was coming back from injury very well this season. If he puts in some good performances over the christmas period he should definitely be in the EPS squad.

Can we not talk about Parling deserving an EPS call up based on the 2009-10 season?

If he gets more game time and shows form this season then yes I might concede he deserves a call up.

Manu's boxing coach I thought Garvey did stand out against Saracens (I would call us top quality opposition but you are welcome to disagree!)

I think we are now in agreement :if Parling puts enough good performances he will warrant an EPS place. If not he won't.

With only 2 games in the Saxons schedule for this year and only one of those likely to be truly competitive, I think that players who are still young enough for the U20 team would probably be better off playing in the full U20 6N and JWC. Players like Ford, Spencer, Kvesic & Nutley.

Not sure how many of them are currently fit, but for the Saxons I'd be considering a squad along these lines:

Brookes
Thomas
Imiolek
PDJ
Wilson
Youngs
Haywood
Buchanan
Day
Slater
Launchbury
Kitchener
Saull
Mercer
Gibson
Clark
Fearns (if he's back from injury, but not soon enough for the EPS)
Gray

Young
Dickson
Clegg
Farrell
Twelvetrees*
JTH
Trinder*
Lowe
Joseph*
May*
Wade*
Benjamin
Short
Homer
Elliot
Goode
Ransom
Abendanon

*I'd like to see one or two of these in the EPS


Wallace, Garvey, Robson, Mullan, Marler, J.Gray, Webber, Burns & Brown would be in my EPS, hence absent here.

Parling is much better than Borthwick, he actually has a loose game which is pretty invaluable in the modern game.

Borths a good lineout op and puts in the graft but offers little else.

Imiolek has had a poor season and would benefit from a season in the Championship I reckon. Thomas is coming on though, and might be worth an early look.

There are a few current u20 players who could be worth a look, but I've steered clear. Perhaps:

Mullan
Lindsey
Thomas
Attwood
Garvey (I doubt he'll go straight to the EPS)
Launchbury
Gibson
Fearns/Phillips (if Fearns isn't fit)
Dickson
Burns
Short
Twelvetrees (can't be in the EPS given his lack of game time)
Joseph
Steggman
Miller

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Parling is much better than Borthwick, he actually has a loose game which is pretty invaluable in the modern game.

Borths a good lineout op and puts in the graft but offers little else.

We'll have to agree to disagree because I think Borthwick is much better than Parling. You should have watched Borthwick in the Ospreys double header. He was very good. Saracens lineout tore the O's one to shreds in the first game. His workrate is very high and he does a lot of the hard graft. The amount of tackles he makes is staggeringly high. As a captain for Saracens he does an excellent job and generally gets his point across to the ref.He has been effective in that regard. He might not be charismatic but he is very popular with the players and does inspire them. You might say he's just a good lineout man - well that's an important part of a 2nd row's job in my opinion! Generally you should have an enforcer and a lineout man in your 2nd row to complement each other

I think he is very valuable and a much maligned figure because he never quite managed to perform at his best for England.

" You should have watched Borthwick in the Ospreys double header. He was very good"

I did, he was very good in the lineout and put in some good work. The Ospreys lineout is dire though so not really a good bench mark.

I understand your Sarries bias but you surely can't be pushing for Borthwick for England BS? He's proven to be completely ineffective at International level and nothing more than a good club player (nothing wrong with that).

Whoah slow down there don't put words into my mouth. I never said Borthwick should play for England again. It's not my choice. All I said was that Borthwick is better than Parling. This is my opinion and I will stick by it.

I am sure that a fully fit Borthwick would outplay Parling.

Parling is a much better all rounder for me, no Leicester bias! I doubt many would agree with you BS but we'll leave it.

Well i think Hudson is better than Borthwick or Parling....

Sgt Pooly that's your opinion you are entitled to it. For me 2nd row is all about balance. I am very happy to have Borthwick in the Sarries team as arguably the best lineout man in the AP. You pair players who will complement each other. Anyway I am pleased with what Borthwick does for Saracens and that's all that matters.I would not swap him for Parling based on current circumstances.

Balance is something that is much underrated in rugby. Having players have complement others is important to complete the jigsaw. It is something that I think England lack in the 2nd row and backrow currently.

I would love England to have an excellent all round number 8 like Hari,Parisse,Heaslip,Read - not going to happen soon though. Sigh.

If only Joubert was 5 years younger and English....

The holy trinity was so effective as a unit for England. The Killer Bs for Scotland etc.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly that's your opinion you are entitled to it. For me 2nd row is all about balance. I am very happy to have Borthwick in the Sarries team as arguably the best lineout man in the AP. You pair players who will complement each other. Anyway I am pleased with what Borthwick does for Saracens and that's all that matters.I would not swap him for Parling based on current circumstances.

Balance is something that is much underrated in rugby. Having players have complement others is important to complete the jigsaw. It is something that I think England lack in the 2nd row and backrow currently.

I would love England to have an excellent all round number 8 like Hari,Parisse,Heaslip,Read - not going to happen soon though. Sigh.

If only Joubert was 5 years younger and English....

Actually Beshocked...this is one area i would disagree with you. I think you ask most England fans and they would say Englands team has lacked balance for sometime, and this is an important part of rugby.

People always look at partnerships...like Matfield and Botha... Englands back row 2003....etc etc..

Geordiefalcon I am saying I think it is underrated meaning that I think it is very important but overlooked. Particularly by Martin Johnson and his management team. We are in agreement.

That's what worries me about England. Especially the backrow. A lot of people calling for Robshaw,Wood and Easter backrow but is that really that balanced?

I understand what you meant...i just feel that the general public would agree that balance is crucial...shame MJ seemed to disagree with that...

I actually think thats a better balanced back row than we have had recently.

But focusing on England alone...if we go for Lawes and say Garvey in the SR..then balance would suggest Croft at 6 for lineout...but i dont see Croft as a real 6...so for me balance is hugely important....

Yes I agree. True the balance is better than what he have but till we see it in action....

I am not sure I see Croft as a 6. I know Sam will jump on that and say how good he is. Croft is a good player but how do you slot him in to make everyone complement each other?

Everyone has different perceptions on what a role should do. I personally don't see Croft fitting what I believe is the role of a typical blindside.

beshocked wrote:Yes I agree. True the balance is better than what he have but till we see it in action....

I am not sure I see Croft as a 6. I know Sam will jump on that and say how good he is. Croft is a good player but how do you slot him in to make everyone complement each other?

Everyone has different perceptions on what a role should do. I personally don't see Croft fitting what I believe is the role of a typical blindside.

And this is one area i am in total agreeance with you...

Everyone has different perceptions on what a role should do. I personally don't see Croft fitting what I believe is the role of a typical blindside..

That's because he doesn't. He fulfills the traditional Tigers role of a blindside. Tigers backrow expectations tend not conform to the excepted roles put forward on this board. Hence if you're looking for Croft to be a tackle machine around the breakdown you won't be impressed.

Sam that's my point though. I am sure he fits in at Leicester. By the way I am not doubting he is a good player but does he fit England?

Should England look to accomodate Croft by shuffling others around?

Yeah whilst i also think Croft is a cracking pplayer, im not sure he fits the England teams requirments at the moment (with the exception of his lineout abilities)

If as i said earlier however we elect to go for two bruisers in the engine room...we may need to look at Croft for the balance in the lineout...unless Wood and Robshaw can cover that....

It will be interesting to see.

Sam that's my point though. I am sure he fits in at Leicester. By the way I am not doubting he is a good player but does he fit England?

He does fit in perfectly at Tigers, so much so they signed a younger player with similar skills to cover for when he's not there (Mafi). Whether he fits in with England depends heavilly on the game plan adopted by the new coaches.