Slow Down The British Boxer

Hi fight fans,

So, Looking back at 2011 we have seen some big British fights; Macklin, Murray, Froch, Khan, Haye, Brook, Barker, and before that lot Rhodes and Hatton had a go at world level.

Now, but for Haye all of these guys showed real will to go and fight on foreign soil, so hats off for that. I think Eddie Hearn has done a great job in matching fighters overseas, and i think Ricky Hatton will do the same, maybe a shift in promotion is taking place in the UK, with Kell Brook leaving Frank and him seemingly having to cancel Degale's next fight due to a lack of interest. Anyway, that's another debate.

What i feel about the British fight seen is this: the thrill is the fact that British fighters are willing to go abroad and fight for a title, not in the way they perform.

The problem is they aren't being brought along at the right pace for me, and simply their will to fight and take big fights is far more thrilling than their actual performances, as too many of our British boys are taking a bashing, and looking amateur.

But for Froch and Khan, the rest have all stepped up a level beyond their current ability. Not only can you look at their fight history, but their styles and skill sets also show this. I mean Barker is a European level fighter, so is Murray, Macklin, Rhodes and Hatton. Yet none of these fighters had really done much campaigning at European level before they stepped up. It makes me a little worried about British boxing, as we need to progress our fighters slowly, and build them like Andre Ward, Broner and Alvarez have been. I mean look at Wards talent, he is 27 and has fought at a great pace, building up to world level and through clever promotion, doing so on home turf. But do you think he develops that check inside left hook or piercing jab without being given time?

One fighter who is being brought on at a good pace in Blighty is Kell Brook. In fact i think Hearn has done a great job with him. He established a home fan base, got him fighting regularly, against different styles. Got him on an American fight card early, to blow off cobwebs for when the big title fight comes. Eddie has kept him in the press and put him on Sky, building him up against better opposition as he does so.

I know not all fighters are as talented as Brook, but we do need to slow some of our fighters down a notch, in order for them to achieve at their ability level. Degale is a joke, i mean he has all the skill set of say, a Ward, but none, absolutely none of the smarts. He is a reactionary fighter and we need to build people like James Degale, even though he wont listen to anyone but himself and his ego. Groves has been brought along well, and the improvement is so visible with him.

Thoughts?

I agree with you on Brook this guy is world class tbh I dont think people realize how good he is.

But guys like Macklin and Murray these guys should be champions so how can you say they are not at that level?? Sturm is the new Ottke the guy stays in Germany and wins hometown decisions he is not that good.

Think you are being harsh on Haye yes he lost to Wlad who is a good boxer but he is one of the best cruiserweights of all time and one of the only exciting heavyweights in the division he would destroy the others in the division I also think he would beat Vitali. He has too much speed and skill for Vitali who is old now. I think he could come back from retirement nxt year.

Next year will be better for British boxing trust me I think all the guys you mention can come back strong and win rematches or world titles this year was very unlucky lots of home town decisions against them.

I am looking forward to seeing these guys in action next year I think they will do very well tbh.

You're so right about Brook, the guy has it all for me, class, class act.

Macklin and Murray could have gone either way for me. And to be honest, they were there to be hit and against someone with more will to hit than Sturm on those nights, they both would have lost. Not to say you can't argue they won those fights, i just feel Sturm was below par and they peaked, and against any other world level fighters they lose.

Haye really annoyed me with his lack of willingness, but yes, he was a great cruiserweight, and can come again. Got more respect for fatty Chisora though, as he is straight in there, regardless of pay or what the drone might do to him.

Fury is a talent, raw as meat, but if he slowed down and fought sensible he could do well. But will he slow down? Like some of these other fighters, Barker especially, will he progress slowly. I mean Barker had one fight in a year against very mediocre opposition, then goes to America to fight Martinez. Brave or a little naive on his part?

I agree about the pace. Jim Watt and co always seem to be saying he this or that fighter needs a bigger test, look at Brook he has been brought along slowly, not been rushed and is reaping the rewards, his skill set has been honed and is genuinely world class now.

Same could be said about Groves, I mean people said he wasn't a puncher, yet look at what he did to Paul Smith. Could anyone of seen him landing a punch like that 12 months ago?

Same could be said about Groves, I mean people said he wasn't a puncher, yet look at what he did to Paul Smith. Could anyone of seen him landing a punch like that 12 months ago?
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great point, and could anyone see him being so poised 12 months ago? very valid points, groves is an example of a boxer who may not be as naturally gifted as a ward, broner or brook, but with hard work and study, can develop his skills. I mean but for ward we saw a huge improvement in froch against glencoff and abraham. fighters can improve, if given time. i fear for khan at the minute, as he seems to be pushing forward too quickly, i mean he fought exactly the same way against peterson as he did against maidana, and although different styles, he could not adjust one bit to peterson. i worry for amir as he seems to think he is more complete than he is, if honest i would fancy brook if those two met.

hampo171 wrote:I agree about the pace. Jim Watt and co always seem to be saying he this or that fighter needs a bigger test, look at Brook he has been brought along slowly, not been rushed and is reaping the rewards, his skill set has been honed and is genuinely world class now.

Same could be said about Groves, I mean people said he wasn't a puncher, yet look at what he did to Paul Smith. Could anyone of seen him landing a punch like that 12 months ago?

Groves will go a long way but should learn the value of head movement and not feignting with his arms and shoulders only. He leaves his chin open to get whacked. He should be brought along much slower.

Groves will go a long way but should learn the value of head movement and not feignting with his arms and shoulders only. He leaves his chin open to get whacked. He should be brought along much slower.
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A lack of head movement is a big problem for so many british boxers these days. good point.

Alma i don't think they are being offered 'big money'. i think the money they get offered is much better than their domestic purses, but in relative terms it wont be big money. There is no shame in a Murray or a Hatton admitting they aren't ready yet. John Murray is really setting himself back with two bad beatings, but fair play for him taking the fight, just be nice to see him build on European level for a bit, learn a few new skills, learn to not walk foward face first. You simply cannot do that at world level, even against a Mexican you'd look suicidal.

To be fair David, John Murray should stay at european level until he can learn to defend with something other than his face. The picture he posted on twitter the day after his fight was disgusting.

It's level of opponent though isn't it and finding that right guy to step it up a level is tough. Stick them in with the wrong guy too soon and your prospect could lose to a nobody. Put them in against Sturm and it's a no lose situation. Come back again, fight for a domestic belt/Euro/Commonwealth and take the fight for what it is, a good experience.

It's the 'good experience' mentality that means we don't achieve on world level though. I mean barker could be a world champion, but he was about 4 or 5 fights premature and fighting Martinez was silly, another 40% above the standard of anyone else he'd faced. Yes, he can go back and conquer at European level, but he could have done that without Sergio and without a loss an a loss of confidence. He has time, he is young, just a thought.

Who's to say he has had a loss of confidence? He, Macklin, Martin Murray all came away with their stock having risen. All could target weaker 'champions' now and win.

KingMonkey wrote:Who's to say he has had a loss of confidence? He, Macklin, Martin Murray all came away with their stock having risen. All could target weaker 'champions' now and win.

Which other MW champ is weaker than Sturm? Chavez is not the WBC "world champ".

KingMonkey wrote:Who's to say he has had a loss of confidence? He, Macklin, Martin Murray all came away with their stock having risen. All could target weaker 'champions' now and win.



Which other MW champ is weaker than Sturm? Chavez is not the WBC "world champ".


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He can't look at other champs as weaker, at world level 90% of champs have attributes that our boys seem to lack or have exposed at that level. Being hit and being ring smart two of the most blatant. Heart isn't an issue, but i am sure a loss does make Barker feel a little less confident, i mean he did well but still, it was his first KO. Being knocked out usually makes boxers reassess at least right?

Macklin and Murray were very unlucky not to win a World title. Sturm is past it now. He's there for the taking I hope Murray gets a re match with him but I doubt he will. Neither have suffered due to their defeats Macklin has Martinez in March and there is no need for Murray to go back to domestic level although I do think a couple of fights at Eurio level would do him some good as long as he is kept away from Daniel Proska.

Froch got all his flaws badly exposed against a man of great quality in Ward. No shame in that but it did make him look like a bit of a clown given the way he spoke to Ward at times before the fight. It wasn't your usua;l trash talking but it was talking down at Ward as if Ward never deserved to be in the same ring as him.

Khan under estimated Petereson. He's not had a stand out year. Wins over McCloskey and Judah aren't anything special for a guy who some had in their P4P top 10 and most considered just on the outskirts of the mythical glory.

Haye not much more than a mouth. Not a great cruiserweight he didn't do enough at the weight to be a great and nothing more than a heavyweight with a mouth and nothing on his record. Out of his depths against Wlad and it will be the same scenario if he fights Vitali.

Brook yet again looked good but beat no one. A lot of talent but we are still waiting to see if he is capable of the sort of performances we have seen from him at the top level. Good to see him active if nothing else.

Barker was out his depths and I wasn't impressed by him. he went in with a gameplan that wasn't going to win him the fight. So he went in to survive and he failed. People seem to think he would beat Chavez I'm not so sure. Chavez isn't as bad as a lot of people make out.

Hatton did well to last the distance with Alvarez but it looked a very different fighter that Rhoides came up against/. That young man has grown into 154lbs very well. I would love to see Rhodes get bundrage I think he would wipe the floor with the guy.

Despite his defeat to Groves it hasn't been a bad year for DeGold. He won the European title. Not bad for a guy with only 12 pro fights. groves had a great year and silenced a lot of his critics. Hopefully the re match can be made next year.

John Murray got shown up to be European level at best and can now take his place in amongst a decent crop of fighters at 135lbs in the U.K with Burns standing top of the pile. No one in Britain beats Burns imo.

2012 should be interesting with guys like Saunders, the Hefforon brothers and hopefully Gavin moving on to win domestic honours and hopefully we will see a good bit of Paul Butler. That young guy is a real prospect.

Watch out for my brothers mate Jamie Smith as well. Scottish boy who has moved down to London and turned pro. He is managed by Spencer Fearon so he won't get it as easy as some other prospects but the guy has a lot of talent.

Welcome back Davidemore, may this incarnation be less raucus than your last. Agree with Azania on groves, needs to tighten that defense then will be a superb prospect. Also want to see booth emply different tactics with Groves, show he can employ a variety of ways to skin a cat.

Degale is alll over the place trying to make up for his loss to Groves, lot's of talent but already it is failing him a little as he doesn't seem aware of the areas he needs to improve. Someone needs to sit him down and map him a realistic course for world honours in 2 yrs. Every SM champ (Kesselr taking Stielgitz belt in this scenario) flattens Degale, and i dont mean points, i mean stops him, at the moment.

russel great points on all boxers, thank you! and seanusrillius!!!!!! i am back and here to compete on a world level.

if degale steps up to world level in the next 12 months then he gets rendered unconscious, fact.

davidemore wrote:russel great points on all boxers, thank you! and seanusrillius!!!!!! i am back and here to compete on a world level.

if degale steps up to world level in the next 12 months then he gets rendered unconscious, fact.

Not if he gets Stieglitz.

In this day and age of numerous titles and paper champs there MUST be someone. Surely.

Stieglitz aside.

Froch would walk him down and do what that Polish fighter wasn't powerful enough to do last time, Kessler same. Ward would hit him so many times he would think he was Mayweather's ex mrs. Dirrell the same. Bute would straight up kill him with power shots. 2 yrs and some decent training and a huge dose of realisation and maybe it's diffferent

Not if he gets Stieglitz.
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true but kessler will put an end to that hope.

Seanusarrilius wrote:Welcome back Davidemore, may this incarnation be less raucus than your last. Agree with Azania on groves, needs to tighten that defense then will be a superb prospect. Also want to see booth emply different tactics with Groves, show he can employ a variety of ways to skin a cat.

Degale is alll over the place trying to make up for his loss to Groves, lot's of talent but already it is failing him a little as he doesn't seem aware of the areas he needs to improve. Someone needs to sit him down and map him a realistic course for world honours in 2 yrs. Every SM champ (Kesselr taking Stielgitz belt in this scenario) flattens Degale, and i dont mean points, i mean stops him, at the moment.

Degale needs a new coach.

Degale certainly needs a new coach, i am 100% convinced of that after listening to what is said in between rounds and how he fights. But seanus is right too, Degale needs a reality check, he already had one with groves, but after his last fight he was talking over Frank Warren about how he needed to be busy and it was painful to see.

Degale is about as close to world level as i am to beyonce's booty.

I have seen rabid dogs with more poise than degale in the ring.

davidemore wrote:Degale is about as close to world level as i am to beyonce's booty.

Are you a loo roll?

I'll tell you exactly what the deal is, as an amateur who often mixes with British Boxers at various gyms.

British boxing is suffering from a lack of interest. There will always be the core fanbase (this place is but one example) and generally the older generation are more familiar with "Friday/Saturday night fights" and will go along to the odd hall or club to watch some fights, but you've got "the Playstation generation" who after a few years of WWE in their pre-pubescant years, then turn to UFC and have that thrust upon them. They believe organised violence is a sport.

I could go on all day as to the wrongs of UFC, and in its own right it can be quite credible as a spectacle. However thats what it is. It has fewer weight divisions, less politics and the best fight the best, no questions asked. In boxing that isn't the case. And British Boxing suffers for this.

There is very little domestic interest in anything below MW. Example - I'll be booked into a card and then all of a sudden 2 heavyweights who have worse records and aren't as skilled become available. I'm moved off the card because these heavyweights draw more interest. Its how its always been. Being a lighter weight in boxing means that you can't develop at the right rate. The minute you show any sort of promise, its demanded from you that you jump into fights you're not ready for just for public interest. What isn't appreciated is how damning a loss can be - they only look for the there and now rather for the afters and when.

British boxing needs interest plugging at the lower weights for fights that will build a boxer slowly, these fights are ignored and its only the big fights that make the general public think "hang on theres a weight below Heavyweight?"

You ask 90% of people who Kell Brook is and they'll say "who?" - but give it 2/3 years and they'll all know - and thats essentially the right way to go about things, but Kell has a great promotion team and a good manager who's been willing to put in the graft. Ask 99% of people who Darren Barker is and they'll say "Who?" and in 2/3 years he'll be remembered as that British Boxer who had a title fight too soon. If he'd been grown slower and put up in 2/3 years he'd probably have won through experience.

I think I contradict myself in there - but I'm sure my point is clear.

jabmachine great points!!!!!

shahensha great joke! lol!

i'll find you.

Wouldn't worry about Degale if there are two things Warren cannot be accused of, one is stupid and the other is being a guy who throws his fighters in too deep too soon. Given this he will know exactly where Degale is development wise and will match him accordingly. Of more concern to me is Degale does not seem so aware of his limitations or frailties, he has shown flaws in his last couple of times but talks as though he is the finished article.

As for the others am not sure we are letting them off the leash too soon, think in some cases such as Murray and Hatton they simply ain't good enough and in other cases they are paying the price for only fighting twice a year as prospects, not sure they lack the talent but are perhaps a little green experience wise when it comes to the top level.

I just don't like how we sometimes come off as looking like stupid, hard headed sluggers when as Brit's we step up to world level, it's like we tense up and charge forward or shell up and get licked. Did Ricky Hatton start this trend with his do and die stuff?

rowley wrote:Wouldn't worry about Degale if there are two things Warren cannot be accused of, one is stupid and the other is being a guy who throws his fighters in too deep too soon. Given this he will know exactly where Degale is development wise and will match him accordingly. Of more concern to me is Degale does not seem so aware of his limitations or frailties, he has shown flaws in his last couple of times but talks as though he is the finished article.

As for the others am not sure we are letting them off the leash too soon, think in some cases such as Murray and Hatton they simply ain't good enough and in other cases they are paying the price for only fighting twice a year as prospects, not sure they lack the talent but are perhaps a little green experience wise when it comes to the top level.

I can bet you that he and his trainers know where his weaknesses are and are working on them daily. Also boxers at a certain level talk themselves up. Degale is no different. He is hardly likely to say what his limitations are.

After his next fight and he wins in a particular manner, you will hear him say that they've been working on it in the gym leading up to the fight.

Az really hope you're right because the kid obviously has talent and from what I hear his application in training is faultless, however it was more the interviews in the wake of the Groves loss where he did not acknowledge any kind of weakness in his game just bleated he deserved the nod. As you have alluded to I hope things are different behind closed doors because if he thinks the only issue in the Groves fight was the judging he is delusional.

degale has an ego that is good for tv but terrible for his career. granted he has heart but he seems to clueless to the idea that he doesn't have to fight the way he does, he can get in and out and dazzle opponents with speed and movement and counters, none of which he used in his last two fights well.

Degale is talented. He also wants to make a name for himself by being OTT, loud etc etc etc hoping that people will love him or hate him, but either way they'll pay to see im.

Sometimes he tries too hard to be flashy in the ring and it fails. But behind closed doors is where the learning takes place. Sack his trainer and move stateside with better trainers and better sparring.

Glad you edited that Davide, was thinking Groves has always seemed pretty humble and level headed when I have seen him!

i like groves loads too! complete typo. like carrots and peas those two.

I wouldn't say it's awful Barker being beaten by Martinez and would think that he should take a lot of positives from it. It wasn't absolutely clear that he was a Europeanlevel fighter against what is the ring's P4P No. 3. He did very well and did Britain proud, he can take a lot of positives and probably learnt more in that fight than he has in any fight so far, he would have most likely only have gotten stronger.

I think with guys like that, that aren't clear cut going to be 100% world class from the moment go you can let them have big chances against these kind of guys as it's a big chance to let there stock go up depending on how they perform.

There is a flip side liek with anything, but all in all, I don't think it's awful just yet, it's not liek we are sticking 10 fight pros in against genuine world champions, proven euro level fighters have a right to fight for world honours.

davidemore wrote:i like groves loads too! complete typo. like carrots and peas those two.

Not really, I like both carrots and peas.

I'm not saying it was awful Alex, my point is that it was too soon, because at middleweight, there isn't enough interest/gate receipts/patience to allow a fighter to grow from Euro to World level.

Being a european level by no means in my eyes means you should then immediately fight for a world title. In an ideal world, Darren Barker would have had some fights against young similarly levelled or older former world level opponents, gradually getting better - yet he was thrown in with Martinez, who although he performed admirably against given his experience, I believe should have been later in his career. Now Darren will be sat looking at himself in the mirror and think I'm too good for Euro, but I fell short at World - where next? Rather than "I've been world level for a while, no shame in losing to the best"

Or rather "I fell short of Elite level, perhaps I should face a fringe world level fighter next to set up a world level shot."

Doesn't work like that if you've been bounded up too far mate. Unless he pulled off the upset, this was only ever going to damage him. We won't see the same Darren Barker, and thats a shame.

The best British fighters imo are Haye and Brook these guys are world class. After that I would say its Froch.

Haye better than Froch?

Brook better than Khan?

Sorry, but can I have some of what you're smoking please?

Brook would destroy Khan imo and Haye has far more speed and skill than Froch. Dont get me wrong they ae all quality fighters but Haye and Brook are the top two then Froch and maybe Khan or Cleverly. De Gale will be quality in a few years.

Waingro wrote:The best British fighters imo are Haye and Brook these guys are world class. After that I would say its Froch.

What has Haye done? Decent Cruiser and a poor heavyweight? Brook has done nothing to be put above Khan, Froch or Burns.

Waingro wrote:Brook would destroy Khan imo and Haye has far more speed and skill than Froch. Dont get me wrong they ae all quality fighters but Haye and Brook are the top two then Froch and maybe Khan or Cleverly. De Gale will be quality in a few years.

This.......has....to.......be a joke right?

Where's Jeremy Beadle?

My face feels like its melting.

Haye is an all time great cruiserweight mate the guy is quality yes he lost to Wlad who is also a good fighter but that does not men he is bad look at the speed and skill he has.

Brook would destroy Khan if they fought imo he is much better Khans defence is too bad and Brook would expose him. Would Brook lose to Peterson? Tbh I think he would school Peterson who is not in his class.

Froch is a quality fighter but he lacks speed which Brook and Haye have.

All time great cruiser, we are talking about a division where Johnny Nelson is deservedly in the top ten of all time, is it that much of a claim to fame.

Waingro wrote:Haye is an all time great cruiserweight mate the guy is quality yes he lost to Wlad who is also a good fighter but that does not men he is bad look at the speed and skill he has.

Brook would destroy Khan if they fought imo he is much better Khans defence is too bad and Brook would expose him. Would Brook lose to Peterson? Tbh I think he would school Peterson who is not in his class.

Froch is a quality fighter but he lacks speed which Brook and Haye have.

Please.

Make it stop.

Brook.......school Peterson.......based on what evidence..........."school" "not in his class"....

Oh, and FYI, Brook isn't a particularly fast fighter. Froch used to have a quicker jab than Brook could dream of at this point, and Haye isn't fast, Wlad was quicker. Haye is wild and comes in at angles. He has decent footwork and a very limited defense he can bang and has a good jab when he gets it working.

Infact no...I'm not rising to it. No.