Slow Down The British Boxer

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Hi fight fans,

So, Looking back at 2011 we have seen some big British fights; Macklin, Murray, Froch, Khan, Haye, Brook, Barker, and before that lot Rhodes and Hatton had a go at world level.

Now, but for Haye all of these guys showed real will to go and fight on foreign soil, so hats off for that. I think Eddie Hearn has done a great job in matching fighters overseas, and i think Ricky Hatton will do the same, maybe a shift in promotion is taking place in the UK, with Kell Brook leaving Frank and him seemingly having to cancel Degale's next fight due to a lack of interest. Anyway, that's another debate.

What i feel about the British fight seen is this: the thrill is the fact that British fighters are willing to go abroad and fight for a title, not in the way they perform.

The problem is they aren't being brought along at the right pace for me, and simply their will to fight and take big fights is far more thrilling than their actual performances, as too many of our British boys are taking a bashing, and looking amateur.

But for Froch and Khan, the rest have all stepped up a level beyond their current ability. Not only can you look at their fight history, but their styles and skill sets also show this. I mean Barker is a European level fighter, so is Murray, Macklin, Rhodes and Hatton. Yet none of these fighters had really done much campaigning at European level before they stepped up. It makes me a little worried about British boxing, as we need to progress our fighters slowly, and build them like Andre Ward, Broner and Alvarez have been. I mean look at Wards talent, he is 27 and has fought at a great pace, building up to world level and through clever promotion, doing so on home turf. But do you think he develops that check inside left hook or piercing jab without being given time?

One fighter who is being brought on at a good pace in Blighty is Kell Brook. In fact i think Hearn has done a great job with him. He established a home fan base, got him fighting regularly, against different styles. Got him on an American fight card early, to blow off cobwebs for when the big title fight comes. Eddie has kept him in the press and put him on Sky, building him up against better opposition as he does so.

I know not all fighters are as talented as Brook, but we do need to slow some of our fighters down a notch, in order for them to achieve at their ability level. Degale is a joke, i mean he has all the skill set of say, a Ward, but none, absolutely none of the smarts. He is a reactionary fighter and we need to build people like James Degale, even though he wont listen to anyone but himself and his ego. Groves has been brought along well, and the improvement is so visible with him.

Thoughts?

Whenever I see any talent being put in with someone as yet out of their depth - I see Davey Moore getting mullered by Duran.

Warren is the opposite - he undermatches them and instills in them a deep complacency which either robs them of their chance to develop excellent fundamentals or erodes the "snap" that distinguishes great fighters from the merely good. One thing in Warrens favour though - when he makes a fighter he gets them at least their worth in money and usually much more. Anyone left destitute after leaving/retiring with him has only themselves to blame. Warren is a brilliant business consultant, not such a great manager.

For Britain at least, you need good sparring partners and those are in poor supply so we have to send em over to the yanks but we do it too late and on too big a stage. Could be mitigated by going old school and fighting near on every week but no one wants to do that.

Jab you have a lot to learm nobody scrapes past anyone in Wain's world, if a fighter is going to lose he gets destroyed or schooled, is related to quality in some way.

rowley wrote:All time great cruiser, we are talking about a division where Johnny Nelson is deservedly in the top ten of all time, is it that much of a claim to fame.

Tbh I think Haye would destroy Nelson. Far too much speed and power for him. I like Nelson he is a nice guy who was a good champ but he was a boring fighter and he was not in Hayes class. Wlad would destroy Nelson if they fought aswell.

ShahenshahG wrote:For Britain at least, you need good sparring partners and those are in poor supply

Oi! I'm on a shortlist to spar with Kell, and I'm not half bad at least thats a couple of peoples opinion! me and my trainer

Haye? Destroy Nelson? Have you watched any Nelson fights?

Stop saying the words "destroy" and "school" just say beat, or win against. Makes you sound less like a 16 year old WUM.

ShahenshahG wrote:Whenever I see any talent being put in with someone as yet out of their depth - I see Davey Moore getting mullered by Duran.

Warren is the opposite - he undermatches them and instills in them a deep complacency which either robs them of their chance to develop excellent fundamentals or erodes the "snap" that distinguishes great fighters from the merely good. One thing in Warrens favour though - when he makes a fighter he gets them at least their worth in money and usually much more. Anyone left destitute after leaving/retiring with him has only themselves to blame. Warren is a brilliant business consultant, not such a great manager.

For Britain at least, you need good sparring partners and those are in poor supply so we have to send em over to the yanks but we do it too late and on too big a stage. Could be mitigated by going old school and fighting near on every week but no one wants to do that.

That is a good point Warren is good at making fighters money but he cannot get them big fights imo. Look at Calzaghe and Hatton these guys had to wait along time for big fights they also left Warren. Khan left Warren too because he wanted to go to America and fight but tbh that might have been a mistake he lost his last fight and his defence is terrible. Maybe he needs a new trainer?

I said on another thread that maybe Freddie Roach is past it his illness is getting worse it is the same illness Ali has and it must be getting hard to train guys. Pacquiao and Khan have not looked as good lately maybe Freddie Roach is not as good as he used to be??

JabMachine wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:For Britain at least, you need good sparring partners and those are in poor supply

Oi! I'm on a shortlist to spar with Kell, and I'm not half bad at least thats a couple of peoples opinion! me and my trainer

Haye? Destroy Nelson? Have you watched any Nelson fights?

Stop saying the words "destroy" and "school" just say beat, or win against. Makes you sound less like a 16 year old WUM.

I'm merely pointing out that you are one in a million Don't hit me

Didn't Haye struggle with a Euro Level plodder in Fragomeni?

Never thought I would end up debating a Haye Nelson fantasy match but am not convinced Haye has too much power for Nelson, Johnny had a terrific chin at his best, often fought and beat heavyweights, couple that with a defence that made him very hard to hit and is by no means a given Haye blows him away, and if he does beat him he by no means schools or destroys him. Dull to watch but a decent fighter at his best Nelson.

And got outmuscled and out Macho'ed by a mummified Carl "The cat" Thompson

Nelson also sparked Carl Thompson am I correct in saying?

Waingro wrote:Haye is an all time great cruiserweight mate the guy is quality yes he lost to Wlad who is also a good fighter but that does not men he is bad look at the speed and skill he has.

Brook would destroy Khan if they fought imo he is much better Khans defence is too bad and Brook would expose him. Would Brook lose to Peterson? Tbh I think he would school Peterson who is not in his class.

Froch is a quality fighter but he lacks speed which Brook and Haye have.

Waingro, every time you mention Haye you mention ' speed and skill. '

I don't suppose anybody will argue that he isn't very quick, but what do you mean by skill? The guy doesn't even slip a jab properly, as we saw against Ruiz and Klitschko. Fiddling around on the outside and feinting for two and a half minutes per round looks flashy, but there's no substance to it. If he possessed the skills which you claim he has, surely he would have slipped Wlad's jab, remained perfectly balanced, planted his feet and countered over the top with the right hand or landed a few stiff jabs himself?

He did indeed beat him Alex, believe he beat him in as many rounds as Carl beat Haye, all seems to be pointing to a pretty easy night for the Entertainer.

HumanWindmill wrote:

I don't suppose anybody will argue that he isn't very quick, but what do you mean by skill?

He is quality Windy, try and keep up.

JabMachine wrote:
Oi! I'm on a shortlist to spar with Kell, and I'm not half bad at least thats a couple of peoples opinion!

Sorry mate if you've put this up before but who are you? Are you a professional. You said on another thread you were axed of a bill because of heavyweights.

rowley wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

I don't suppose anybody will argue that he isn't very quick, but what do you mean by skill?

He is quality Windy, try and keep up.

Ah! Quality, jeff. Now I get it.

I also have a to question his power at cruiserweight - wasn't carl sparked by someone called yo davis and Ezra sellers?

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:

JabMachine wrote:
Oi! I'm on a shortlist to spar with Kell, and I'm not half bad at least thats a couple of peoples opinion!

Sorry mate if you've put this up before but who are you? Are you a professional. You said on another thread you were axed of a bill because of heavyweights.

Not a pro mate, Amateur, removed from a bill because 2 heavyweights became available - wasn't for money or anything, just a local gym bill but our heavyweight "prospect" (if you count swinging wildly and being overweight as a prospect) became available and was matched against another local who is of the same ilk. The gym decided it was in their best interests to have 2 heavyweights go at it.

Such is the amateur game unfortunately.

I'm not good enough yet and haven't done anything for me to say who I am, personal details on the interwebs and all that.

I'm unlikely to go pro either, for reasons I've previously stated

haye is an all time great cruiser, even though he only had 2 world title fights. pretty impressive. mormeck was a great win no doubt, and maybe if haye hadnt chose to earn more money at heavy he might have forged a legacy at cruiser, but he didnt. adamek, cunningham, huck....its not as if he cleaned up or beat all the top guys

Top 5 British fighters, in order and based on opponents as much as talent:

1. Froch
2. Khan
3. Brook
4. Burns
5. Haye

rowley wrote:Jab you have a lot to learm nobody scrapes past anyone in Wain's world, if a fighter is going to lose he gets destroyed or schooled, is related to quality in some way.

If they're British then they're robbed unless they get schooled by Johnny Foreigner but the judges score it close then it could have gone either way.






(You figure out where the punctuations go.)

davidemore wrote:Top 5 British fighters, in order and based on opponents as much as talent:

1. Froch
2. Khan
3. Brook
4. Burns
5. Haye

Can't have Brook there on opposition, but on talent and opponents combined maybe.

Mine and i am not including Haye as he says he is retired.

1. Froch
2. Khan
3. Brook
4. Cleverley
5. Burns