Manny Pac - slowing down?

Is he slowing down how visible is it? Or does he look more vulnerable because in his last 2 fights he has fought boxers with more intelluigence?

JMM didn't stand there to be beaten. SSM moved a little. All this had the effect of making the normally buzz-saw Pac appear human in that he threw fewer punches. Against marg, Clottey etc, they just stood there, marched forward and accepted a beating. When SSM moved and tried to counter (poorly) Pac became hesitant and displayed no plan B.

Is it age, better boxers, or different 'nutrition' that is causing this apparent slowing down?

Put him in with a katsides type boxer and the buzz-saw will return.

Lots of different views but a lot of people are saying his footwork has gone or whatever, I dont' believe this to be true, I think his footwork is to do with the type of opponent he is facing, and the type of opponent he has faced recently where he didn't look good has forced him to break them down, something that Manny cannot do well.

Even watch his other fights with Barrera 2 and Morales 1 and any Marquez fight, the same story there, he didn't have his incredible footowkr because of them moving in a particular way (Strafing to the left)

Manny just has a problem with this, and doesn't seem to know how to counter it. He seems to follow and do the wrong things. Still a great fighter, just will struggle against particular styles.

Watch the first round of Marquez where hehad most success. Marquez wasn't moving and tried to push Manny back and got caught because he was beign the aggressor, he changed tact and it worked a treat.

I think he may be slower than he was at 135, as he should as he goes up in weight, but I don't think he's losing a step to age. I agree that it's just a style thing, moving fighters negating his ferocity with their brain.

Codswallop.

He started looking slower against Margarito - where he wasn't the same hive of activity as he had been previously.

Johnny Nelson said it first - stating that he looked slower to him against Clottey than previously - and then saying he thought he'd slowed down even more against Marg.

Sure - its hard to be a hive of relentless activity when you're being countered to hell - a la JMM3.

As for the "nutrition" dig - you know as well as I do that he's never failed a drug test.

If we're questioning him for weight jumping, lets question Hopkins and Floyd as well.

There is a big difference to be fair, Floyd clearly hasn't retained the type of power he showed at SFW and possibly a tincy bit of speed. Whereas Manny has perhaps naturally lost a little bit of speed due to the weight but his punches seem to have pretty much the same effect they did from SFW to WW. (Taking into account the punches are against bigger men and having the same kinds of effects) Not saying it is unnatural what Pac has done, just that it's pretty unheard of.

AlexHuckerby wrote:There is a big difference to be fair, Floyd clearly hasn't retained the type of power he showed at SFW and possibly a tincy bit of speed. Whereas Manny has perhaps naturally lost a little bit of speed due to the weight but his punches seem to have pretty much the same effect they did from SFW to WW. (Taking into account the punches are against bigger men and having the same kinds of effects) Not saying it is unnatural what Pac has done, just that it's pretty unheard of.

Its pretty incredible. But then again - what Hopkins is doing is a world first - what Bolt did was unheard of and what Iliadis did by winning Olympic gold in Athens, spending 6 years in the doldrums before becoming world champion and world number 1 is pretty unheard of as well.

As it is - given Fitzsimmons' weight jumping feats - whilst retaining KO power - its not that unbelievable.

I didn't see any difference in speed from Manny after the Cotto fight until now personally, just that he didn't look like the same type of fighter because he wasn't able to open his opponent up and get any real rhythm going, that's my view anyway.

Fair one.

I personally didn't think he had slowed down against Clottey - however - I will happily accept that I know far less about the sport than Johnny Nelson. I did think he was slower against Marg, however.

Aye.

We could all learn one or two things from "The Entertainer"

But even with his apparant diminshed speed, how do people now see a fight with Mayweather materializing?

Same way as I saw it before 9-3 in Floyds favour with manny only winning rounds on aggression and work rate.

oxring wrote:Codswallop.

He started looking slower against Margarito - where he wasn't the same hive of activity as he had been previously.

Johnny Nelson said it first - stating that he looked slower to him against Clottey than previously - and then saying he thought he'd slowed down even more against Marg.

Sure - its hard to be a hive of relentless activity when you're being countered to hell - a la JMM3.

As for the "nutrition" dig - you know as well as I do that he's never failed a drug test.

If we're questioning him for weight jumping, lets question Hopkins and Floyd as well.

He looked slow in some of the rounds against Cotto. Those rounds were the ones Cotto decided to box behind the jab. When marg was pressing him he looked slower also. Overall I haven't seen any noticable slowing down. What I have noticed is that when faced with a jab he looked slower because he threw less punches. Against Cotto, Marg and Clottey, he threw over 100 punches per round. Against SSM it was less. less still against JMM.

Now look at the styles of the boxers in which he throws the most punches. Compare that to SSM and JMM. Its not that he's slowing down whatsoever. Styles makes fights etc. I'd venture to say that a younger SSM would beat any version of Pac at any time. A phenom at lower weights but manufactured at higher weights.

As for the nutrition dig, any one who can come up with such stupid excuses for not wanting to take a randon drug test is hiding something. Either that or he's just plain stupid. If he is stupid I feel for the electorate in his country.

I feel Floyd will want to put an exclaimation mark on the fight and not just beat him up, but a sustained and painful beating. Something like Ali and Patterson type of beating.

But lets not go down the route of who wins out of those 2.

azania wrote:I feel Floyd will want to put an exclaimation mark on the fight and not just beat him up, but a sustained and painful beating. Something like Ali and Patterson type of beating.

But lets not go down the route of who wins out of those 2.

And my god, is that some hell of a route! :

Still, Mayweather wins it for me exactly as you said.

I would be suprised if it was a real "Beating" the fight would still be competetive just that I don't see how Manny could win unless he lands a humdinger and that's especially unlikely against Floyd.

Pacquiao need to retire soon imo he has no chance of beating Mayweather who would school him. Lets be honest Pacquiao was very lucky to beat Marquez who was robbed in their last fight he has looked like he is on the slide and maybe him and Roach are past it now. Freddie Roach has a serious illness it is the same as Ali and it is getting worse. Many of his fighters have looked worse lately and have been losing. Is this a coincidence? Maybe it is but I think Roach could be past it now. Maybe Pacquiao should think about a new trainer but Freddie Roach is like a father to him so I cant see him leaving him so I think he needs to retire. Marquez would beat him in a rematch and Mayweather would school him tbh I think after a couple more fights Brook could beat him too this shows that Pacquiao is on the slide he has lost alot of speed and he spends too much time in politics now so he should retire before he gets to washed up.

AlexHuckerby wrote:I would be suprised if it was a real "Beating" the fight would still be competetive just that I don't see how Manny could win unless he lands a humdinger and that's especially unlikely against Floyd.

I said Floyd would win via near shut-out in another thread. Styles etc. Always maintained that Floyd would slap him silly.

Waingro ffs, please use punctuation.

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:I would be suprised if it was a real "Beating" the fight would still be competetive just that I don't see how Manny could win unless he lands a humdinger and that's especially unlikely against Floyd.

I said Floyd would win via near shut-out in another thread. Styles etc. Always maintained that Floyd would slap him silly.

And stylistically, as a quick southpaw with high output - Manny does enough to make things competitive, especially early.

People calling shutout especially where the Manny of Cotto (and no, he didn't look slow in rounds 1 or 2 - where Cotto was behind the jab) is concerned are doing a disservice to a great fighter.

If Hatton could take 2 rounds off Floyd in their "fight" - based on nothing but output and workrate - to suggest Manny couldn't do the same is frankly ludicrous.

Floyd doesn't tend to slap any fighters about in the Welterweight division except for possibly Hatton but that's a slightly different level.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:I would be suprised if it was a real "Beating" the fight would still be competetive just that I don't see how Manny could win unless he lands a humdinger and that's especially unlikely against Floyd.

I said Floyd would win via near shut-out in another thread. Styles etc. Always maintained that Floyd would slap him silly.

And stylistically, as a quick southpaw with high output - Manny does enough to make things competitive, especially early.

People calling shutout especially where the Manny of Cotto (and no, he didn't look slow in rounds 1 or 2 - where Cotto was behind the jab) is concerned are doing a disservice to a great fighter.

If Hatton could take 2 rounds off Floyd in their "fight" - based on nothing but output and workrate - to suggest Manny couldn't do the same is frankly ludicrous.

The early rounds would be competitive and Manny would win due to output. After R3 onwards, it would be one way traffic. I see this as another Coralles (RIP) beating. Its not that I dont rate manny. I do. But I believe strongly that he is made to measure for Floyd. 9-2 to Floyd with a KO in R12.

I think Mayweather wins comfortably (116-112) but no way is a fast southpaw made to measure for him, if they were Judah wouldn't have caused him so many early problems and we're talking about a far better fighter here.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I think Mayweather wins comfortably (116-112) but no way is a fast southpaw made to measure for him, if they were Judah wouldn't have caused him so many early problems and we're talking about a far better fighter here.

Judah is a more talented boxer than Pac. He just lacks a huge component to elevate him to the elite level where Pac is; A fighters heart. On his day he would be a nightmare for anyone. Hence he gave floyd problems for the first 3 rounds. After that it was one way traffic.

I see it the same way because whilst pac will give Floyd problems with his stance for 2 rounds or so, he lacks the boxing intelligence to sustain it whereas Floyd can alter styles mid-fight. Pac's Plan A has been good enough for most, but against Floyd he would need A,B and C which he doesn't have.

Yeah Judah is more talented than Pacquiao, ok no bias there.

It was Judahs mentality that made it one way traffic after about the 6th round before which it was very even, he stopped throwing punches not because of Mayweather but because it's what he does, Pacquiao wouldn't do that.

Again - a KO? Dubious.

Something like the Oscar fight - with a fast start from Manny and a slow dominance from Floyd. A fight which looks close at the time but a clear win for the Nevada native on second viewing.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Yeah Judah is more talented than Pacquiao, ok no bias there.

It was Judahs mentality that made it one way traffic after about the 6th round before which it was very even, he stopped throwing punches not because of Mayweather but because it's what he does, Pacquiao wouldn't do that.

Unlike many I dont let my bias cloud my opinions. Zab was a supremely gifted fighter. He lacked a fighter's heard. Take Audley and Rogan as an example. Who is the more talented and who won their fight. That's my issue with Zab.

If PAc's output was lower when fighting JMM, how do you think it will increase when he's being countered to pieces against a better boxer than JMM? When Pac starts thinking, he loses his main asset which is the spontaniety (spelling) and instinctive way in which he fights.

Nah can't see it being as close as the Oscar fight, Floyd realises he got outworked a bit in that fight and won't make the same mistake, also Oscar was huge in compairson, realistically speaking, Floyd is a bigger guy.

I think Marquez is a better pure counter puncher than Mayweather. He also had the benefit going into the thir fight of 24 rounds experience against Pacquiao, who for all his talent doesnt really deviate from his regular strategy. So this was a massive plus for a counter punher like Marquez who had already plenty of time to crack Pacquiao. Mayweather wont have this. He can study tapes, and try replicate in sparring but its still not the real thing.

I also think theres a possibility that Pacquiao took the fights a little lightly or for various reasons wasnt as focused. Not many gave Marquez a hope and maybe Pacquiao believed the bookies odd to some extent. No real proof of this but its a possibility given the way the fight was seen at the time. I think a Mayweather fight would demand and receive his full attention, politics or no politics and he would start as underdog for the first time since Oscar.

Mayweather, even against overmatched opponents, doesnt always start well. In fact in hes probably a slow starter. Oscar, Mosely, Hatton, Judah etc all had their best moments early until Mayweather settled in to the fight. So a fast paced quick starter like Pacquiao would definately be in with a good shout of taking the initial rounds.

One would expect Pacquiao to employ his regular strategy and Mayweather to look to counter and use Pacquiaos aggression against him as Marquez did but Mayweather can always surprise and pull out the unexpected. Marquez is a fighter that I think is more comfortable with a fast pace and high workrate fighter than Mayweather and hes also a more aggressive counter puncher in general so stylewise I think hes better matched against Pacquiao than Mayweather is overall.

I think this fight would see Pacquiao take the start, Mayweather get more comfortable in the middle but really only seal it in the championship rounds. But when Mayweather is involved its always hard to tell what strategy he employs. Because Marquez is a pure counter puncher, he needs more time to settle into a fight and get to grips with his opponent. Mayweather could come out guns blazing on the front foot or even try rough Pacquiao up on the inside so I would have to really limit my prediction in the context of Mayweather adopting a "Marquez" style approach.

manos de piedra wrote:I think Marquez is a better pure counter puncher than Mayweather. He also had the benefit going into the thir fight of 24 rounds experience against Pacquiao, who for all his talent doesnt really deviate from his regular strategy. So this was a massive plus for a counter punher like Marquez who had already plenty of time to crack Pacquiao. Mayweather wont have this. He can study tapes, and try replicate in sparring but its still not the real thing.

I also think theres a possibility that Pacquiao took the fights a little lightly or for various reasons wasnt as focused. Not many gave Marquez a hope and maybe Pacquiao believed the bookies odd to some extent. No real proof of this but its a possibility given the way the fight was seen at the time. I think a Mayweather fight would demand and receive his full attention, politics or no politics and he would start as underdog for the first time since Oscar.

Mayweather, even against overmatched opponents, doesnt always start well. In fact in hes probably a slow starter. Oscar, Mosely, Hatton, Judah etc all had their best moments early until Mayweather settled in to the fight. So a fast paced quick starter like Pacquiao would definately be in with a good shout of taking the initial rounds.

One would expect Pacquiao to employ his regular strategy and Mayweather to look to counter and use Pacquiaos aggression against him as Marquez did but Mayweather can always surprise and pull out the unexpected. Marquez is a fighter that I think is more comfortable with a fast pace and high workrate fighter than Mayweather and hes also a more aggressive counter puncher in general so stylewise I think hes better matched against Pacquiao than Mayweather is overall.

I think this fight would see Pacquiao take the start, Mayweather get more comfortable in the middle but really only seal it in the championship rounds. But when Mayweather is involved its always hard to tell what strategy he employs. Because Marquez is a pure counter puncher, he needs more time to settle into a fight and get to grips with his opponent. Mayweather could come out guns blazing on the front foot or even try rough Pacquiao up on the inside so I would have to really limit my prediction in the context of Mayweather adopting a "Marquez" style approach.

This makes no sense mate, yes Marquez had experience against Pacquiao before but so did Pacquiao lol they both fought each other so they both spent the same amount of time against each other how can Marquez have more experience??

Marquez beat Pacquiao but sadly he was robbed by the judges this shows that Pacquiao is on the slidehe is not as fast anymore. Marquez is nowhere near as good as Mayweather mate look what happened when they fought Mayweather schooled him completely he won every round so how can you say Marquez is a better counter puncher? He is not in Mayweathers class this shows how much Mayweather would school Pacquiao if they fought but I think Pacquiao will retire soon he must know he is on the slide and he will not want to fight on past his best when he can run in ploitics. Freddie Roach could also retire soon I think once Pacquiao retires the other fighters could leave him he is getting old now and his illness is sadly getting too much for him to be a top trainer now.

I think it is being harsh on Mayweather to say he is not a good starter lets not forget the guy has the best ring smarts in boxing one of the most ring smarts of all time he will study Pacquiao and get quality sparring so he will be ready for Pacquiaos tactics trust me they will not catch him by surprise.

Waingro wrote:This makes no sense mate

Are you referring to what preceded or what followed this quote?

'Gro it's not all that hard to understand, Marquez unlike Mayweather has fights worth of experience fighting Pacquiao and between the two with his adaptability he will have learnt more than Pacquiao did.

oxring wrote:

Waingro wrote:This makes no sense mate

Are you referring to what preceded or what followed this quote?

The bit before it about Marquez having more experience and being a better counter puncher and about Mayweather being a bad starter this does not make sense to me Marquez and Pacquiao fought the same amount of rounds against each other so they would have same experience. Mayweather also schooled Marquez so how can Marquez be a better counter puncher he is not in Mayweathers class? It is also harsh to say Mayweather is a bad starter he is some of the best ring smarts of all time so he will not be surprised by Pacquiao he will have too much smarts and skill for that.

Oxy can we employ a translator please?

Any automated translator would balk at the idea of translating that.

If I have a go:

Marquez and Pacquiao have fought 36 rounds so have the same amount of boxing experience.
Mayweather schooled Marquez so must be a better counterpuncher than Marquez.
Mayweather has the best ring smarts of all time so must therefore be a fast starter.

Think that's what he's going for.

All 3 points wrong, of course.

oxring wrote:Any automated translator would balk at the idea of translating that.

If I have a go:

Marquez and Pacquiao have fought 36 rounds so have the same amount of boxing experience.
Mayweather schooled Marquez so must be a better counterpuncher than Marquez.
Mayweather has the best ring smarts of all time so must therefore be a fast starter.

Think that's what he's going for.

All 3 points wrong, of course.

Lol yes that is the point I was making how are those points wrong??

Marciano fought Walcott twice - who had more boxing experience? JMM has a whole career of counterpunching experience 'gro.
Point 2 on this - JMM is an adaptable boxer. He hasn't approached Manny the same way after round 1 of fight 1. Whereas Manny is still trying to do round 1 of fight 1 all over again.
--------------------------------------
Mayweather beat Marquez on the front foot. That doesn't make him a better counterpuncher - but a better all round boxer.
--------------------------------------
Mayweather doesn't have the best ring smarts of all time.
Fitzsimmons - meant to be one of the greatest p4p fighters in history - was a notoriously slow starter. Just because you have ring smarts doesn't mean you start fast.

1. Marquez's greatest asset is his adaptability, it is this reason why he has gained more experience from their fights than Pacquiao.
2. Mayweather beating Marquez doesn't mean he is better in each and every way although I do think he's a better counter puncher.
3. Mayweather has shown in numerous fights that he is a slow starter, for example De La Hoya, Hatton, Judah and Mosely.

Waingro I think your missing my point slightly.

Firstly, with regards experience, I am talking about Marquez having more experience in facing Pacquiao than Mayweather will have. Which Im sure you agree is quite an advantage. Counter punchers like Marquez are like code breakers. They need a bit of time to crack their opponents code in order to utilise the right timing, range, punch selection and so forth. Thus the more experience they have against a certain opponent, the easier it becomes for them in general. This tends help counter punchers more than pressure fighters for instance, who simply employ their own style indepenadant of their opponent (Hatton for example). Marquez on the other hand fine tunes his strategy in accordance with his opponent. So very often in a fight between a come forward fighter and a counter puncher you will see the aggressive come forward fighter start the better but the counter puncher gradually adjusting as the fight goes. Because Marquez had 24 rounds in the bag against Pacquiao previously, he had plenty of time to break Pacquiaos code and in the third fight he was able to pick up where he left off rather than start from scratch. Mayweather wont have this luxury. He will have to start from scratch and get to grips with Pacquaio himself. If Mayweather does indeed adopt a similar style to Marquez (I would say he might be a bit more variable though) then it would be very surprising if he was able to successfully start off in control without any period of adjustment.

The other thing is regards Marquez being a better pure counter puncher than Mayweather. Just because Mayweather beat Marquez handsomely doesnt really highlight whos better regards counter punching. Mayweather is the better fighter overall, far more flexible and holds most physical advantages. He made Marquez fight a kind of fight he wasnt good at. Marquez is an elite counter puncher but hes ordinary at other things, such as pressuring, chasing a fight and taking the initiative. Mayweather made him do all this and didnt give him a chance to counter punch or fight his preffered style. Marquez was doing little countering he was largely having to try to force the engagements and chase Mayweather who was quicker and better than him and simply beat him to the punch. But Pacquiao is much different. I think Marquez is a better pure counter puncher than Mayweather partly because its almost his exclusive style that hes employed his whole career and because theres small things hes better at than Mayweather when on the back foot. Hes more comfortable with a high pace and being under pressure. Hes used to this. He doesnt mind his opponent dictating the tempo, hes hapy to go along with it. Mayweather doesnt so much. He prefers time, space and control. He also has a much better defence than Marquez so when he is under pressure he can rely on this. Marquez cant so he fights fire with fire and is a bit more aggressive. Hes also more likely to press the initiative whereas Mayweather will often move back out of range again and put space between him and his opponent. This makes it tougher to outwork Marquez than Mayweather because Marquez presses the exchanges more and engages. Mayweather can cover up, roll, slip happily enough without always landing a huge amount in return. Its small differences like these that I think give Marquez an advantage in pure counter punching terms. However Mayweather has far more variety so he tends not limit himself solely to one strategy. Whereas Marquez is somewhat dependant on his opponent to feed him opportunites, Mayweather can make his own, control the tempo, change strategy and is fr more flexible in this regard than Marquez which is why he is a better and more successful fighter overall. Thats what makes predicting his approach to a fight difficult because hes comfortable fighting a whole variety of ways and can easily tailor or change his style to suit his opponents strengths and weaknesses. And with regards a fight with Pacquiao, there are several key areas which could decide how the fight pans out, the most significant probably being how each fighter gets to grip with the others speed. One of Pacquiaos biggest strengths is his speed and workrate against a fighter like Mayweather who isnt entirely comfortable wen his opponent is in charge. So if Pacquiao wins the battle here and can set a high tempo that forces Mayweathr ut of a rythm, and if he has the advantage in speed then it could be a very dificult and uncmfortable night for Mayweather. If the reverse happens then Mayweather can shut down Pacquiaos workrate and probably Pacquiaos best hope of winning with it.

I think i'll wait and see what he looks like with a more stationary opponent but he does look to have slowed a little regardless. I'm not sure if Freddy is getting him to reserve more energy during a fight, if he is then it's a bad move. It could all be down to Mosley' reluctance to engage and Marquez' sleek style though.

manos de piedra wrote:Waingro I think your missing my point slightly.

Firstly, with regards experience, I am talking about Marquez having more experience in facing Pacquiao than Mayweather will have. Which Im sure you agree is quite an advantage. Counter punchers like Marquez are like code breakers. They need a bit of time to crack their opponents code in order to utilise the right timing, range, punch selection and so forth. Thus the more experience they have against a certain opponent, the easier it becomes for them in general. This tends help counter punchers more than pressure fighters for instance, who simply employ their own style indepenadant of their opponent (Hatton for example). Marquez on the other hand fine tunes his strategy in accordance with his opponent. So very often in a fight between a come forward fighter and a counter puncher you will see the aggressive come forward fighter start the better but the counter puncher gradually adjusting as the fight goes. Because Marquez had 24 rounds in the bag against Pacquiao previously, he had plenty of time to break Pacquiaos code and in the third fight he was able to pick up where he left off rather than start from scratch. Mayweather wont have this luxury. He will have to start from scratch and get to grips with Pacquaio himself. If Mayweather does indeed adopt a similar style to Marquez (I would say he might be a bit more variable though) then it would be very surprising if he was able to successfully start off in control without any period of adjustment.

The other thing is regards Marquez being a better pure counter puncher than Mayweather. Just because Mayweather beat Marquez handsomely doesnt really highlight whos better regards counter punching. Mayweather is the better fighter overall, far more flexible and holds most physical advantages. He made Marquez fight a kind of fight he wasnt good at. Marquez is an elite counter puncher but hes ordinary at other things, such as pressuring, chasing a fight and taking the initiative. Mayweather made him do all this and didnt give him a chance to counter punch or fight his preffered style. Marquez was doing little countering he was largely having to try to force the engagements and chase Mayweather who was quicker and better than him and simply beat him to the punch. But Pacquiao is much different. I think Marquez is a better pure counter puncher than Mayweather partly because its almost his exclusive style that hes employed his whole career and because theres small things hes better at than Mayweather when on the back foot. Hes more comfortable with a high pace and being under pressure. Hes used to this. He doesnt mind his opponent dictating the tempo, hes hapy to go along with it. Mayweather doesnt so much. He prefers time, space and control. He also has a much better defence than Marquez so when he is under pressure he can rely on this. Marquez cant so he fights fire with fire and is a bit more aggressive. Hes also more likely to press the initiative whereas Mayweather will often move back out of range again and put space between him and his opponent. This makes it tougher to outwork Marquez than Mayweather because Marquez presses the exchanges more and engages. Mayweather can cover up, roll, slip happily enough without always landing a huge amount in return. Its small differences like these that I think give Marquez an advantage in pure counter punching terms. However Mayweather has far more variety so he tends not limit himself solely to one strategy. Whereas Marquez is somewhat dependant on his opponent to feed him opportunites, Mayweather can make his own, control the tempo, change strategy and is fr more flexible in this regard than Marquez which is why he is a better and more successful fighter overall. Thats what makes predicting his approach to a fight difficult because hes comfortable fighting a whole variety of ways and can easily tailor or change his style to suit his opponents strengths and weaknesses. And with regards a fight with Pacquiao, there are several key areas which could decide how the fight pans out, the most significant probably being how each fighter gets to grip with the others speed. One of Pacquiaos biggest strengths is his speed and workrate against a fighter like Mayweather who isnt entirely comfortable wen his opponent is in charge. So if Pacquiao wins the battle here and can set a high tempo that forces Mayweathr ut of a rythm, and if he has the advantage in speed then it could be a very dificult and uncmfortable night for Mayweather. If the reverse happens then Mayweather can shut down Pacquiaos workrate and probably Pacquiaos best hope of winning with it.

I think you are looking into it to much tbh mate. Marqez beat Pacquiao but got robbed so what chance does he have against Mayweather?? Pacquiao is on the slide now he has lost speed and is not focused Mayweather would school him and knock him out if he had more power. Pacquiao should think about retiring now before he is washed up.

Pavlik beat Taylor and Taylor beat Hopkins so Pavlik beat Hopkins right?

Waingro wrote:

I think you are looking into it to much tbh mate.

Not an insult he is ever likely to be able to throw back in your face I fear.

Definitely slowed down gradually, in my book, though my full views on the matter can be seen on the thread where we discussed this a day or two ago.

Fists of Fury wrote:Definitely slowed down gradually, in my book, though my full views on the matter can be seen on the thread where we discussed this a day or two ago.

We've discussed this before? You mean to say that some members are trudging through ground already well trodden on here?

Unheard of, sir.

@ manos

im sorry but marquez is not a better counterpuncher than Floyd. Floyd slips punches better, keeps his range better, throws punches from better angles and has better ring smarts. You're argument about JMM having 24 rounds is a little flawed. Yes in the 3rd fight he had the experiance but in the 1st he didnt. when they first met, JMM had no past experiance vs him, but he countered him easily then and was his best performance of the 3 fights as excluding the knockdowns he would have won very easily.

Foyd is quicker, smarter, bigger and more skilled than JMM and is a full fledged welter unlike JMM

manos de piedra wrote:Waingro I think your missing my point slightly.

Firstly, with regards experience, I am talking about Marquez having more experience in facing Pacquiao than Mayweather will have. Which Im sure you agree is quite an advantage. Counter punchers like Marquez are like code breakers. They need a bit of time to crack their opponents code in order to utilise the right timing, range, punch selection and so forth. Thus the more experience they have against a certain opponent, the easier it becomes for them in general. This tends help counter punchers more than pressure fighters for instance, who simply employ their own style indepenadant of their opponent (Hatton for example). Marquez on the other hand fine tunes his strategy in accordance with his opponent. So very often in a fight between a come forward fighter and a counter puncher you will see the aggressive come forward fighter start the better but the counter puncher gradually adjusting as the fight goes. Because Marquez had 24 rounds in the bag against Pacquiao previously, he had plenty of time to break Pacquiaos code and in the third fight he was able to pick up where he left off rather than start from scratch. Mayweather wont have this luxury. He will have to start from scratch and get to grips with Pacquaio himself. If Mayweather does indeed adopt a similar style to Marquez (I would say he might be a bit more variable though) then it would be very surprising if he was able to successfully start off in control without any period of adjustment.

The other thing is regards Marquez being a better pure counter puncher than Mayweather. Just because Mayweather beat Marquez handsomely doesnt really highlight whos better regards counter punching. Mayweather is the better fighter overall, far more flexible and holds most physical advantages. He made Marquez fight a kind of fight he wasnt good at. Marquez is an elite counter puncher but hes ordinary at other things, such as pressuring, chasing a fight and taking the initiative. Mayweather made him do all this and didnt give him a chance to counter punch or fight his preffered style. Marquez was doing little countering he was largely having to try to force the engagements and chase Mayweather who was quicker and better than him and simply beat him to the punch. But Pacquiao is much different. I think Marquez is a better pure counter puncher than Mayweather partly because its almost his exclusive style that hes employed his whole career and because theres small things hes better at than Mayweather when on the back foot. Hes more comfortable with a high pace and being under pressure. Hes used to this. He doesnt mind his opponent dictating the tempo, hes hapy to go along with it. Mayweather doesnt so much. He prefers time, space and control. He also has a much better defence than Marquez so when he is under pressure he can rely on this. Marquez cant so he fights fire with fire and is a bit more aggressive. Hes also more likely to press the initiative whereas Mayweather will often move back out of range again and put space between him and his opponent. This makes it tougher to outwork Marquez than Mayweather because Marquez presses the exchanges more and engages. Mayweather can cover up, roll, slip happily enough without always landing a huge amount in return. Its small differences like these that I think give Marquez an advantage in pure counter punching terms. However Mayweather has far more variety so he tends not limit himself solely to one strategy. Whereas Marquez is somewhat dependant on his opponent to feed him opportunites, Mayweather can make his own, control the tempo, change strategy and is fr more flexible in this regard than Marquez which is why he is a better and more successful fighter overall. Thats what makes predicting his approach to a fight difficult because hes comfortable fighting a whole variety of ways and can easily tailor or change his style to suit his opponents strengths and weaknesses. And with regards a fight with Pacquiao, there are several key areas which could decide how the fight pans out, the most significant probably being how each fighter gets to grip with the others speed. One of Pacquiaos biggest strengths is his speed and workrate against a fighter like Mayweather who isnt entirely comfortable wen his opponent is in charge. So if Pacquiao wins the battle here and can set a high tempo that forces Mayweathr ut of a rythm, and if he has the advantage in speed then it could be a very dificult and uncmfortable night for Mayweather. If the reverse happens then Mayweather can shut down Pacquiaos workrate and probably Pacquiaos best hope of winning with it.

I'm surprised you'd indulge waingro with such an intelligent post but I'm glad you did.