May the dire fare witnessed in the HEC persuade IRB that scrummaging laws need changing
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donkeyprop
bathmad
emack2
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May the dire fare witnessed in the HEC persuade IRB that scrummaging laws need changing
Robert Kitson of the Guardian wrote:This piece was going to be a collection of end-of-year reflections, bound up in a little seasonal tinsel. Then the Ospreys hosted Saracens at the Liberty Stadium on Friday night. The first half ranked so far off the scale of viewing misery, even for Sarries fans, that Scrooge himself would have lunged for his TV remote and opted for something more uplifting. It was enough to make you fear for professional rugby's future, if not its soul.
Bad matches happen. Referees have ordinary games. Scrums can collapse through no fault of the participants. But when all those things occur simultaneously during the first 40 minutes of a game that should have showcased everything good about the Heineken Cup and European club rugby the alarm bells begin to sound. Ding Dong Merrily on High? Hardly.
Instead of delving exclusively into the grim stats – 11 of the first 12 scrums penalised, 14 of the game's 26 penalties awarded for scrummaging illegalities – let us remind ourselves what the coaches said afterwards. "I don't know where we are going in the scrums," said the Ospreys coach, Sean Holley, in no mood to deck the halls with boughs of anything festive. "Maybe we would be better off without them." His Sarries counterpart, Mark McCall, took a similar view: "In the old days you used to practise scrum moves but coaches have stopped doing that as there is a free-kick or penalty at every scrum so there is no need. The scrums were carnage."
Were this an isolated problem it could be swiftly overlooked. Sadly, it has become a widespread curse, particularly during the European winter when pitches soften up and props find it harder to retain their footing. During the World Cup it emerged that three outstanding former Lions props, Fran Cotton, Mike Burton and Ray McLoughlin, have submitted a paper to the International Rugby Board arguing that 13 of the current scrummaging laws need changing. They believe many of the current laws are "unjust, illogical and inoperable" and that the scrum is increasingly a lottery.
They also suggest the current command of "Crouch, touch, pause, engage" be replaced by "Stand, touch, engage, push". They argue this would reduce the so-called "hit" and, potentially, reduce neck and back injuries, not to mention arthritis in later life. There is too much good sense contained within their work for it to be ignored and Friday's match may further help persuade the IRB that something has to change.
Among the proposals is that scrum penalties should not result in kicks at goal, a suggestion most self-respecting props would regard as excessive. But unless you have a referee who genuinely understands the scrum – France's Romain Poite is among those who clearly enjoys a good scrummaging contest – the possibility for tight games to be decided on spurious grounds has never been as high as it is nowadays. Jerome Garces, the official in charge of the Ospreys-Saracens non-event – appeared to lose the players' respect early on and his absurdly elongated pronunciation of the word "pause" made things even worse.
The problems, of course, run deeper than simple linguistic issues. During the Ireland v Australia World Cup pool game, refereed by Bryce Lawrence, there were 22 scrums, 11 collapses and seven penalties, while 43% of the game's points came from scrummage offences (it would have been more had the kickers been successful with all their attempts). During last year's Six Nations the "collapse rate" was 67 per 100 scrums. Add all this together and doing nothing is no longer an option.
Maybe they should simply lock Cotton, Burton, McLoughlin, Mike Cron, Graham Rowntree, Ewen McKenzie and a couple of gnarled specimens from France and Argentina in the same room and refuse to send in any food until they have hammered out the way forward. One suspects you would have a workable, no-nonsense solution by lunchtime. The general public might also care to read the Kiwi scrum expert Brendon Ratcliffe's excellent prop's-eye-view article on why the scrum still matters. No one in rugby wants to see the scrum disappear but the events of last Friday night were a truly gruesome glimpse into the abyss.
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
Join date : 2011-03-05
Location : Glyncorrwg
Re: May the dire fare witnessed in the HEC persuade IRB that scrummaging laws need changing
I could not agree more,apparently one of the present steps will be abandoned in the new set up.
I was bought up in an era when the scrum was an attacking weapon,and a Props primary job was to scrummage.
Pretty it was not thery being that one side would grind the other down,and in the last 20 minutes the floodgates would open.
That of course did`nt happen both sides were knackered by then,today the ability in ball handling is considered more important.
The way the scrum was set was simpler,and certainly more even few strikes against the head.
Bok refs in particular were very hot on Scrum offences,NZ ones in those around the Ruck[the two sides main source of ball]
NZ were good at first phase, but attacked off second phase,indeed in the age of reality.I t was considered impossible to score a try direct from first phase[pre 1964 and the 10 yard gap at te lineout for backs.]
Then of course no Prop worth his salt would deliberately collapse a scrum,to dangerous.Indeed players like Ian McLauchlan[Mighty Mouse]often held up his opposite number so he could scrummage.
Scrummaging is about TECHNIQUE,not just weight,and if people think mobile props are from the Pro era think again.
Players like Kevin Skinner at a young age in 1949,Whineray, Ian Clarke, Amdee Domenech[the duke same size standing up and lying down]
I was bought up in an era when the scrum was an attacking weapon,and a Props primary job was to scrummage.
Pretty it was not thery being that one side would grind the other down,and in the last 20 minutes the floodgates would open.
That of course did`nt happen both sides were knackered by then,today the ability in ball handling is considered more important.
The way the scrum was set was simpler,and certainly more even few strikes against the head.
Bok refs in particular were very hot on Scrum offences,NZ ones in those around the Ruck[the two sides main source of ball]
NZ were good at first phase, but attacked off second phase,indeed in the age of reality.I t was considered impossible to score a try direct from first phase[pre 1964 and the 10 yard gap at te lineout for backs.]
Then of course no Prop worth his salt would deliberately collapse a scrum,to dangerous.Indeed players like Ian McLauchlan[Mighty Mouse]often held up his opposite number so he could scrummage.
Scrummaging is about TECHNIQUE,not just weight,and if people think mobile props are from the Pro era think again.
Players like Kevin Skinner at a young age in 1949,Whineray, Ian Clarke, Amdee Domenech[the duke same size standing up and lying down]
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: May the dire fare witnessed in the HEC persuade IRB that scrummaging laws need changing
I've been quite vocal in the past about referees not having any idea what was going on in the scrum. Thinking again, there aren't half the problems with scrums in the amateurs (under the same rules), which leads me to believe that in the pros, they're simply trying to cheat. I guess you can understand that given they're looking for any slight advantage, but if refereeing can't take care of it, what else is there?
bathmad- Posts : 533
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 44
Location : Exiled in London
Re: May the dire fare witnessed in the HEC persuade IRB that scrummaging laws need changing
I haven't seen the report by Cotton et al but any move that would reduce/ simplify the rules at the scrum would be positive. I've long believed that it is impossible for a ref to correctly apply all of the laws relating to body position, timing etc of the 6 front row players when he only has a clear view of two of them;let the refs concentrate on the straightness of the feed and keeping the scrum up - forget the rest.
Changing the guidance given to refs would also help - there is too much pressure on top level refs to keep the game flowing and make a spectacle for TV audiences, resulting in the award of free kicks and penalties instead of a reset scrum.
I would not want a rule preventing a kick at goal from a scrum penalty to be introduced. If a prop/ pack pressures their opposition into an infringement, why should this be considered less worthy of a kick at goal than offences in open play? There are already enough rules that work as a disincentive to proper scrummaging and this would only serve to further protect those teams who can't scrummage.
Changing the guidance given to refs would also help - there is too much pressure on top level refs to keep the game flowing and make a spectacle for TV audiences, resulting in the award of free kicks and penalties instead of a reset scrum.
I would not want a rule preventing a kick at goal from a scrum penalty to be introduced. If a prop/ pack pressures their opposition into an infringement, why should this be considered less worthy of a kick at goal than offences in open play? There are already enough rules that work as a disincentive to proper scrummaging and this would only serve to further protect those teams who can't scrummage.
donkeyprop- Posts : 35
Join date : 2011-06-13
Re: May the dire fare witnessed in the HEC persuade IRB that scrummaging laws need changing
I agree donkeyprop that a team should be penalised for a scrum infringement. Otherwise if you´re on the 5m line from your own goal line, you´d rather take a free kick than have a pushover or a penalty offence.
The touch, engage, get married, put your balls in just doesn't work. You get the delayed hit where the other front row doesn't go in strong thinking that if they get driven back the ref will blow up for pushing too early. As soon as the front rows hit and push then the ball needs to go in instead of these delaying tactics with the ball held above the head and the whining to the ref by the halfback saying the prop called him a bad name or that there's mud on the ball and his hands will get dirty...
Maybe it´s also time we had scrum refs on the field and free the ref up to adjudicate on open play. Why not have a neutral person (or two on either side) who knows precisely what goes on in a scrum and is there to adjudicate solely on that and then when the ball is released, he retires off the field of play.
If you have the laws where you can pick a scrum as an attacking weapon, then like the lineout, the team who chooses to go for the scrum should have proper refereeing of that. Because why not use it as an attacking weapon because one of the difficult things in rugby in the modern era is eliminating the pack from the defensive line. Have them all caged in and then options open up for you.
The touch, engage, get married, put your balls in just doesn't work. You get the delayed hit where the other front row doesn't go in strong thinking that if they get driven back the ref will blow up for pushing too early. As soon as the front rows hit and push then the ball needs to go in instead of these delaying tactics with the ball held above the head and the whining to the ref by the halfback saying the prop called him a bad name or that there's mud on the ball and his hands will get dirty...
Maybe it´s also time we had scrum refs on the field and free the ref up to adjudicate on open play. Why not have a neutral person (or two on either side) who knows precisely what goes on in a scrum and is there to adjudicate solely on that and then when the ball is released, he retires off the field of play.
If you have the laws where you can pick a scrum as an attacking weapon, then like the lineout, the team who chooses to go for the scrum should have proper refereeing of that. Because why not use it as an attacking weapon because one of the difficult things in rugby in the modern era is eliminating the pack from the defensive line. Have them all caged in and then options open up for you.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Madrid
Re: May the dire fare witnessed in the HEC persuade IRB that scrummaging laws need changing
its really quite simple.... enforce the existing rules!!!!!!
We don't need scrum refs, or wholesale rule changes
A straight put in will force the hookers to Hook, the Props to Prop. Pushing more than 2ft before the ball is put in to be penalised.
If the Hooker has to hook then there are just 2 props in the scrum not three and it is no longer about the impact but the shove on the put in.
The team with the put in has one advantage, and one only... the timing of the put in.
We can still keep the safety engage calls, and enforcing on manufacturers a proper binding kit for the front row would reduce collapsed scrums.
Things we want to see from a scrum.
Stability, less re-sets
Advantage to the put in side
Test of strength and technique once the ball is 'in play' i.e. fed into the scrum.
Brian Moore has covered this at length for years now, there needs to be a clean out at the top of the refs board and better focus and experience on forward play.
We don't need scrum refs, or wholesale rule changes
A straight put in will force the hookers to Hook, the Props to Prop. Pushing more than 2ft before the ball is put in to be penalised.
If the Hooker has to hook then there are just 2 props in the scrum not three and it is no longer about the impact but the shove on the put in.
The team with the put in has one advantage, and one only... the timing of the put in.
We can still keep the safety engage calls, and enforcing on manufacturers a proper binding kit for the front row would reduce collapsed scrums.
Things we want to see from a scrum.
Stability, less re-sets
Advantage to the put in side
Test of strength and technique once the ball is 'in play' i.e. fed into the scrum.
Brian Moore has covered this at length for years now, there needs to be a clean out at the top of the refs board and better focus and experience on forward play.
damage_13- Posts : 682
Join date : 2011-09-08
Location : Southampton, England
Re: May the dire fare witnessed in the HEC persuade IRB that scrummaging laws need changing
Remove the hit and force the packs to maintain a stable scrum with no pushing until the ball is in. Adopt a zero tolerance with feeding the ball in (upgrade it to a penalty and get refs to actually call it). That would go a long way to fixing the problems as so many of the scrums collapse from the initial hit.
formerly known as Sam- Posts : 21334
Join date : 2011-07-13
Age : 38
Location : Leicestershire
Re: May the dire fare witnessed in the HEC persuade IRB that scrummaging laws need changing
The referee was abysmal in this game. He called the scrum in like this :
Crouch
Touch
pause
engage!
It was an absolute joke. He hung on every single call except the important one. It's hard enough to get scrums right without making a hash of the engagement call.
How to fix it? Simple, let the front rows come together, bind properly, then the locks in and then the backrow. No pushing, no shoving no nonsense untill the ball is in. It should then be easy to spot who loses their bindings and collapses the Scrum. If needed allow a touch judge or an additional official to watch the Scrum on the otherside of the scrum too.
Crouch
Touch
pause
engage!
It was an absolute joke. He hung on every single call except the important one. It's hard enough to get scrums right without making a hash of the engagement call.
How to fix it? Simple, let the front rows come together, bind properly, then the locks in and then the backrow. No pushing, no shoving no nonsense untill the ball is in. It should then be easy to spot who loses their bindings and collapses the Scrum. If needed allow a touch judge or an additional official to watch the Scrum on the otherside of the scrum too.
RuggerRadge2611- Posts : 7194
Join date : 2011-03-04
Age : 39
Location : The North, The REAL North (Beyond the Wall)
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