Scrummaging

There seem to be less constant re-takes of the scrum, which is good. However as a prop, i can still tell you 60% of penalties are either guesses or wrong. Also in the england Italy game the ref just played on regardless. I for one think there should be an experienced ex front row player to officiate the scrum. Otherwise just take it out the game. Do it properly or don't bother!!! (under no circumstances pick the latter)

wonder_man wrote:However as a prop, i can still tell you 60% of penalties are either guesses or wrong.

Glad to hear you've it all figured it to such a level of detail.

60% of the time, he's right every time.

I've worked out that up to 70% the whole thing, unless there aren't and then it's down to 17%. Bearing in mind that 63% can't not do.

red_stag wrote:

wonder_man wrote:However as a prop, i can still tell you 60% of penalties are either guesses or wrong.

Glad to hear you've it all figured it to such a level of detail.

I don't feel your comment contributes at all to the topic

Why are there 3 red rats being sick in the OP?

Wonder man - my comment is at LEAST 40% effective, 12% of the time.

progressive binding, no pushing till the ball is in.

SafeAsMilk wrote:Why are there 3 red rats being sick in the OP?

It is the front row SafeAsMilk.

i think its 70%wumming 100%of the time

Ok Wonderman lets put jokes aside. I would bet my right nut that we could appoint an ex-prop to referee the scrums and we would encounter two issues:

1 - He would spot too much, we have a massive amount of penalties (as you know in most scrums somebody is trying to push the limit) and the scrum is considered more trouble than they are worth.

2 - We still have inconsistency between matches.

I don't think having an ex-prop on hand would be of any help. My brother is a tight head and so is my cousin. We watched the Northampton Saints play recently and each had wildly difference opinions on the legality of how they scrum.

you do raise good points. I personally don't think your scrummaging properly unless your breaking atleast 40% of the rules, 60% of the time

red_stag wrote:Ok Wonderman lets put jokes aside. I would bet my right nut that we could appoint an ex-prop to referee the scrums and we would encounter two issues:

1 - He would spot too much, we have a massive amount of penalties (as you know in most scrums somebody is trying to push the limit) and the scrum is considered more trouble than they are worth.

2 - We still have inconsistency between matches.

I don't think having an ex-prop on hand would be of any help. My brother is a tight head and so is my cousin. We watched the Northampton Saints play recently and each had wildly difference opinions on the legality of how they scrum.

You missed out the obvious and fundamental problem Stag, most props cant walk and think at the same time, and if they do they are probably thinking about food and will start eating their whistle!

No probs Wonder.

I think under a different system (i.e. no hit) the scrum will be MUCH easier to referee.

iv said this many times.. but i think it would ruin it. but without the hit you lose so many potential issues its worth looking at

SubsBench wrote:
You missed out the obvious and fundamental problem Stag, most props cant walk and think at the same time, and if they do they are probably thinking about food and will start eating their whistle!

Treading on thin ice, my friend, I am a prop, Jannie du Plessis is a prop, I have a post graduate qualification and Jannie is a Medical doctor. I will let you know some of us can add and subtract as well.

biltongbek wrote:

SubsBench wrote:
You missed out the obvious and fundamental problem Stag, most props cant walk and think at the same time, and if they do they are probably thinking about food and will start eating their whistle!

Treading on thin ice, my friend, I am a prop, Jannie du Plessis is a prop, I have a post graduate qualification and Jannie is a Medical doctor. I will let you know some of us can add and subtract as well.

What, like 2 pies minus 1 pie means I have 1 pie left to eat (+ chips)!?

I'm just kidding Biltong, please don't eat me......

biltongbek wrote:

SubsBench wrote:
You missed out the obvious and fundamental problem Stag, most props cant walk and think at the same time, and if they do they are probably thinking about food and will start eating their whistle!

Treading on thin ice, my friend, I am a prop, Jannie du Plessis is a prop, I have a post graduate qualification and Jannie is a Medical doctor. I will let you know some of us can add and subtract as well.

Aye, but not at the same time. For biltong:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SubsBench wrote:
You missed out the obvious and fundamental problem Stag, most props cant walk and think at the same time, and if they do they are probably thinking about food and will start eating their whistle!

Treading on thin ice, my friend, I am a prop, Jannie du Plessis is a prop, I have a post graduate qualification and Jannie is a Medical doctor. I will let you know some of us can add and subtract as well.

Aye, but not at the same time. For biltong:

You called my bluff.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SubsBench wrote:
You missed out the obvious and fundamental problem Stag, most props cant walk and think at the same time, and if they do they are probably thinking about food and will start eating their whistle!

Treading on thin ice, my friend, I am a prop, Jannie du Plessis is a prop, I have a post graduate qualification and Jannie is a Medical doctor. I will let you know some of us can add and subtract as well.

What, like 2 pies minus 1 pie means I have 1 pie left to eat (+ chips)!?

I'm just kidding Biltong, please don't eat me......

Ozzie, here in Saffer land we eat STEAKS, not pies.

I've realised wonder man is just on a wind up.

I mean, a prop pretending to understand percentages...

dummy_half wrote:I've realised wonder man is just on a wind up.

I mean, a prop pretending to understand percentages...

I do.

10% of 10% is 1%

Biltong, you must be the exception that proves the rule, you can even use a computer!

Thought all that props understood was pie charts

biltongbek wrote:

dummy_half wrote:I've realised wonder man is just on a wind up.

I mean, a prop pretending to understand percentages...

I do.

10% of 10% is 1%

How very binary of you, biltong

SubsBench wrote:Biltong, you must be the exception that proves the rule, you can even use a computer!

not really mate, I dictate to my very sexy assistant (in my dream world that would be the case) and she types whatever I say. I of course do not allow her any artistic licence.

andy powells minder wrote:Thought all that props understood was pie charts

Mate, i will refer you to paragraph 6, subsection 2.4619.

We eat MEAT. Juicy big 1 inch thick steaks, cooked on the braai with salt, pepper, a little spice and lemon juice. Blooooody delicious.


Pies are for men who don't know how to use knives. (yes props can use knives)

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

dummy_half wrote:I've realised wonder man is just on a wind up.

I mean, a prop pretending to understand percentages...

I do.

10% of 10% is 1%

How very binary of you, biltong

If this was the Matrix, I would have been THe ONE.

"yes props can use knives"

But you aren't supposed to use them to type with

dummy_half wrote:"yes props can use knives"

But you aren't supposed to use them to type with

Why do you think we have thumbs?

wonder_man wrote:I for one think there should be an experienced ex front row player to officiate the scrum. :

Picture the scene.. First scrum after 5 minutes on 5 yard line Gareth Chilcott waddles over, stops half way to catch his breath. CTPE ball breaks free and oposition hoof it 70 meters down field where the full back knocks on. SCRUM... cut to Coochie. "F**k this for a game of soldiers"

I found 80% of this thread funny with only 2% being on topic but hitting a 90% WUM factor on Welsh fans/and/or props.

PS: enforce the EXISTING rules!

(straight put in, Props prop, Hookers Hook. No pushing untill the ball is fed in (buffer beyond 2ft)

and get the kit manufacturers to make a bindable prop shirt.

Chairman Moore is right, but like chilcot wouldn't last 30 seconds on the pitch with a whistle

Submachine wrote:

wonder_man wrote:I for one think there should be an experienced ex front row player to officiate the scrum. :

Picture the scene.. First scrum after 5 minutes on 5 yard line Gareth Chilcott waddles over, stops half way to catch his breath. CTPE ball breaks free and oposition hoof it 70 meters down field where the full back knocks on. SCRUM... cut to Coochie. "F**k this for a game of soldiers"

the media might just go fro that, it gives them plenty of time for ads in between scrums while the referee has to waddle to the next set piece.

progressive binding, no pushing till the ball is in..

+1 on this. Most of the reset scrums come because the front row lose their feet at the hit. Remove the hit and bring the scrum together with no pushing until the ball is in. Then adopt a zero tolerance policy on feeding meaning that hookers actually have to hook rather than be an additional prop.

Time for refs to be sent on seminars with top scrummagers teaching them the tricks of the trade. Julian White is coming to the end of his career (rumours are the mind is strong but the body is feeling his age) and he is pretty brutal in the scrum he'd teach them a thing or two.

Submachine wrote:

wonder_man wrote:I for one think there should be an experienced ex front row player to officiate the scrum. :

Picture the scene.. First scrum after 5 minutes on 5 yard line Gareth Chilcott waddles over, stops half way to catch his breath. CTPE ball breaks free and oposition hoof it 70 meters down field where the full back knocks on. SCRUM... cut to Coochie. "F**k this for a game of soldiers"

Segway?

Was it the England v Italy game where there was a hook against the head?

Carpe Diem wrote:

Submachine wrote:

wonder_man wrote:I for one think there should be an experienced ex front row player to officiate the scrum. :

Picture the scene.. First scrum after 5 minutes on 5 yard line Gareth Chilcott waddles over, stops half way to catch his breath. CTPE ball breaks free and oposition hoof it 70 meters down field where the full back knocks on. SCRUM... cut to Coochie. "F**k this for a game of soldiers"

Segway?

Or perhaps

http://l.yimg.com/ea/img/-/110304/rocketman_16n0kif-16n0kmf.jpg

red_stag wrote:Was it the England v Italy game where there was a hook against the head?

I don't think it was hooked. There were two against the head and both seemed to come off the feet of 2nd/back row players.

1 - Enforce the straight put in
2 - Do away with the the C T P E sequence - progressive bringing together with no pressure until told
3 - Make forwards wear proper jerseys that players can bind on
4 -Appoint Mr B Moore LLB to head the IRB Scrum Review panel (or whatever it's called) and enforce the above

Simples !!

Irish Londoner wrote:1 - Enforce the straight put in
2 - Do away with the the C T P E sequence - progressive bringing together with no pressure until told
3 - Make forwards wear proper jerseys that players can bind on
4 -Appoint Mr B Moore LLB to head the IRB Scrum Review panel (or whatever it's called) and enforce the above

Simples !!

With the added bonus to all you non-English fans that Moore will be too busy in his new role to continue his double act with Eddie Butler.

Seriously though, how come those of us on a message board can see that points 1 to 3 above would alleviate most of the problems with the scruim at the moment, yet the IRB can't see it? Especially wierd as this would simply be a reversion to the Laws that are actually written (i.e. no pushing until the ball enters the scrum).

The main problems all come from the hit - props loose their feet or fail to get an adequate bind because of the impact (and the shirts), and so tend to go to ground, necessitating multiple resets. It is one of the main bug-bears for supporters, as the scrum shoud be a reasonably quick bit of play to restart the game, not a 2 minute hiaitus.

Seriously though, how come those of us on a message board can see that points 1 to 3 above would alleviate most of the problems with the scruim at the moment, yet the IRB can't see it?

Yet if we sent this thread to the IRB the only change we'd see is referees on Segways.

I've spent most of today on WUM-infested Wales - England threads but reading this thread has cheered me right up. Good humour, wit and common sense galore.

Good work, everyone! Steak for all!

Dummyhalf,

Paddy O'Brien addressed that point (unsatisfactorily but still addressed it).

He said that the only problems are at top level rugby and there is more to rugby than whats on tv.

So where do we meet for this steak?

red stag
That may be true, but the top level games are the shop window for the sport and are the ones that are blighted by these issues - as such, there should be a priority for the IRB to address them.

Why are these issues not a problem at lower levels? A few thoughts
1 - No or minimal 'hit' on engage. Players are less powerful and dynamic than the pros, and also haven't trained to either make or take a big impact.
2 - Shirts that are looser fitting and so can be bound to (can you imagine a Sunday morning prop wearing a skin-tight jersey? )
3 - There isn't the 'win at all costs' mentality - A bigger and stronger scrummaging pack (at amateur / casual level) will be able to dominate without winning the hit, and a weaker pack will do all they can to either avoid scrums or to just get the ball in and out as quickly as possible before they get squashed.

Shirts that are looser fitting and so can be bound to (can you imagine a Sunday morning prop wearing a skin-tight jersey?

We ordered some 'semi-fit' shirts as an away kit. They weren't quite skin tight but not far off. One of our props thought they were great and that it helped keep his gut in, the other was less than enthused complaining it pushed is out the bottom.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Shirts that are looser fitting and so can be bound to (can you imagine a Sunday morning prop wearing a skin-tight jersey?

We ordered some 'semi-fit' shirts as an away kit. They weren't quite skin tight but not far off. One of our props thought they were great and that it helped keep his gut in, the other was less than enthused complaining it pushed is out the bottom.

I can;t imagine either of them were a particularly pretty sight

Bathman_in_London wrote:So where do we meet for this steak?

Biltong's flying us all out to South Africa. That's right, isn't it, Biltong?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:So where do we meet for this steak?

Biltong's flying us all out to South Africa. That's right, isn't it, Biltong?

It will probably be easier if you all fly me out to your side of the equator, my measly Rands vs your British pound or euro and the fact that collectively you might only have to put in a few pence each.


Just note, I don't fly economy class or coach.


Business class all the way.


You find us a place to buy these 1 inch thick steaks. Get some Maize flour, fresh tomatoes, onions (not those little chalottes you have over there) some fresh garlic, ginger, a few jalapenos, and an assortment of spices, worcestersauce, tomato puree, and I will make you the best steak, pap and tomato relish sauce you will ever eat in your life.

Let's do it in July after the england tour to SA, while it is summer there by you. I don't do anything under 15 degrees celcius.

The alternative is you fly here to watch the english tests and I will buy the steaks and braai for you at my place.

biltongbek wrote:
You find us a place to buy these 1 inch thick steaks. Get some Maize flour, fresh tomatoes, onions (not those little chalottes you have over there) some fresh garlic, ginger, a few jalapenos, and an assortment of spices, worcestersauce, tomato puree, and I will make you the best steak, pap and tomato relish sauce you will ever eat in your life.

That has me salivating, Biltong!