Lawes faces 6N fitness race

Northampton's Courtney Lawes out for 'a few weeks'

Northampton director of rugby Jim Mallinder says that lock Courtney Lawes will be out injured for several weeks.

The 22-year-old is having a scan on his knee but should be available for the Six Nations if selected, with England opening against Scotland on 4 Feb.

Mallinder told BBC Look East: "I think he'll be out for a few weeks. It's not a serious one.

"He was playing really well [so] it's really disappointing for him, but it's not his season over."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16394067.stm
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Player out for a few weeks sounds serious enough to me.

So Courtney Lawes' injury could rule him out of the 6N, or at least for the start of it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16394067.stm

For many of us on 606, he was a certain starter in the second row, but who do we think will replace him? I think the 606 results concluded Attwood would pair him, but would he now be replaced by a similarly athletic-type 2nd row, or not?

For me, I think the options are Palmer (breaking RFU rules), Garvey, Deacon (if he can get back soon enough), Kennedy, or he that shall not be name (he is big and bald, with a horrible nose...no, not Tindall)

Hmmmm go for Attwood/Palmer with Garvey on the bench.

Isn´t a fitness race counter-productive? Far better to let him recuperate.

There seems to be a worrying injury toll for England or those unable to play. Might make Lancaster plump for an even more experimental side. What is the existing injury list or those unable to play as it stands?

Im pretty sure Deacon is totally out of contention aswell due to injury...

If Palmer is not considered then its a brand new SR....

Garvey is a huge lump...getting good reviews...but as i havent seen much of him i couldnt comment.

Attwood hasnt been playing brilliantly.....

Hudson could come into consideration aswell....and is Parling fit and firing?

I think it could be something like : Garvey and Parling (or Robson if Parling is not fit).

What about Robson and Garvey?

That's exactly what I was thinking Flankertye, I think Garvey could b a great bench option, especially considering his physical stature.

Kiakahaaotearoa: No idea what the current injury toll is, but it sure is getting longer! It's not just the injuries though, but players who have made themselves 'unavailable'. Off the top of my head, it's Lawes, Sheridan, Deacon, Crane, Wigglesworth, Haskell, Palmer (possibly), S. Armitage and the ever injured Tom Rees. I'm sure others will think of a lot more though.

Robson & Garvey would be fine....

I guess it boils down to who you think is the better....or parling / Robson.

I'd be inclined to go for Hudson & Garvey of course

Isnt Tuilagi got a slight knock aswell....how bad / good is he?

At the moment what are we looking at?

1 Corbs
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Garvey
5 Robson / Hudson / Parling etc (lineout man).........
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 ?????
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi ( or Trinder if Tuilagi is not fit)
14 Ashton
15 Foden

Sorry guys, totally forgot about Robson who is playing very very well. Hudson is a good shout, but getting on a bit (30?)

Parling is due back soon I think, though not exactly sure. I think formerlyknownasSam is your man for that question.

Danny Careless is also another name to a growing list and Tuilagi is doubtful as well.

In a way it might encourage Lancaster to go for a more developmental look with this growing list of players made unavailable to him. The problem is, as was the case with Ashton, Robson and Johnson, people want immediate results and won´t tolerate building for the future excuses.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Danny Careless

I think that after the implosion that was England's RWC 2011 campaign,fans will actually be more prepared to wait it out for the long-term benefits, rather than the short-term glories. i.e. a few loses in the 6N would be negligible if the overall player performance was good

Actually Kia,

I think Johnson was given lots of time...people saw what he was trying to do...and he did bring a large number of youngsters through... i think it was certain questionable selection policies and his loyalty to his woeful coaching team that was the issues....

Fair point Geordie. I do remember the gruff post-match interviews early on.

What surprised me were the comments after the World Cup that England had made no progress under Johnson. Winning the 6N is clearly progress for me and you could see a definite shift in how Johnson wanted to see England play.

You´re right though that the RWC was a failure and the progress that had been made in the 6N was not evident in NZ. There seemed to be no team bond that was all too apparent in 2007. Johnson must be blamed for that but also senior players should be held accountable. Maybe this clean-out is a result of that?

Kia theres a difference between building the future and sacrificinga generation of perfectly good players at their prime and embaressing the next generation by putting them to the sword.

Of the 2008 NZ tour squad 8 of those players made the world cup squad ( ok Care wouldve done had he been fit) and half of those were already well established England players.

The 6 nations is a very important too. The world cup happens every 4 years, losing to Wales shoudl happen no more than that often too.

There has to be a balance. and some on field leadership.

I wholeheartedly agree. D'Arcy is probably still going to be picked at inside centre even though he hasn't been playing well for some time in the green jersey. Kidney doesn´t want two new players in the centres so better to have an experienced player to make the transition to test rugby easier for the OC. Experience is vitally important in rugby. That said, can you see evidence of this on-field leadership from Easter in a test jersey of late? Has he the same ability to take the ball up in strong runs in test matches of late? Faletau and Warburton were gambles by Gatland but they seemed to overhaul the Welsh back row. Maybe Lancaster has something similar in mind.

I fully agree you need to have some experience and this is what England has been missing since the clean-out from 2003. But the senior players playing for England haven´t done enough on a consistent basis. It´s all very well to say he´s the best number 8 in the Heineken Cup or the Premiership but unless he´s that same player for you in a test jersey, then it´s irrelevant.

Granted, Easter is always a tireless performer and he was playing well in those early rounds of the 6N last year with a different look in the backrow. But then he fell away. Now you could say that was due to the return of Croft and Moody and I might well agree with you. A trick of a manager is knowing when to let go of a player. So'oialo stayed lingered around mainly because there wasn't a player of any quality seemingly to replace him. Then Read came onto the scene and we all wondered why he wasn't there sooner. Maybe Easter, who by now is used to being dropped at the start of the season, will have the reaction that he will show why he should be in the squad and he'll get his call-up and that hunger will inspire his team-mates but also those also vying for the top team.

I just don't think it's all doom and gloom with the axing of Easter. There is much to admire about him but how many chances has he be given to show he's a true international class 8 and how many people outside of England and indeed within actually think he is?

Deacon (if he can get back soon enough),

Talk of it being a serious one though there's no confirmation of how long he will be out. Very unlikely to make the start of the tournament based on interviews with Cockerill.

Parling is due back soon I think, though not exactly sure. I think formerlyknownasSam is your man for that question

You rang. He should be back either this weekend of for the Ulster game. No definite answers from the coaches yet so it will be a bit of wait and see but here's hoping as we need him to disrupt that Ulster lineout. Slater and Kitchener were in good form against Sale with Kitchener doing a decent job of calling the lineout.

Actually reading the telegraph report it looks like Palmer will be kept in the squad....so it'll probably be who plays alongisde him....

This was posted on the site yesterday.
https://www.606v2.com/t21204-northampton-s-courtney-lawes-out

As someone whose knees are both shot, when it comes to knees, a few weeks is getting off lightly!

Never good to see a good player go out injured though. I hope he comes back quickly.

My apologies Cymroglan

So how about....

1 Corbs
2 Hartley (c)
3 Cole
4 Garvey
5 Palmer
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Trinder
14 Ashton
15 Foden

I like the squad Geordie, but interestingly, would you play Wood as a 6? Or are you doing the Springbok-type numbering?

Not specifically Vedder....i think both Robshaw and Wood can play 6 or 7...but Wood is more inclined to do the hard graft at the breakdown...and just be in the mix of it in general....which is what i like my six to do...then Robshaw can play the way he's been playing at 7 for quins....

I think that could finally be a back row that can challenge....

Well the question is who plays alongside Palmer then....

I think its the wrong side to face Scotland in the middle of winter, but then England are running out of options. This is getting depressingly like the days of old when Englands injured players out numbered the fit ones. Armitage was something like 4th choice fullback when picked, Noon 5th choice OC in autumn 2008.

Ah I understand. I definitely think that the flanker combo has to be Wood and Robshaw come the 6N. I think they could perform seriously well as a unit.

Well it sounds like he may well be back in time but it depends on if they decide to risk him with no club games. He had been playing as well as I've seen recently now that he decided to stop believing the hype about being some kind of 'super enforcer' that the media hyped him up to and just concentrating on doing what he does - was certain to start against Scotland.

Was hoping for a Parling Lawes combo against Scotland if everyone was fit, although it sounds as though Palmer is going to be a 'special case' and still get selected. If this is the case can see it being Palmer & Attwood in the engine room against Scotland with maybe Lawes on the bench if he hasn't got in a game for the Saints first.

If Easter been dropped I think Croft is a given for the backrow even if some think Wood is a better all round player. Hes been cosnitently good since his debut and far from deserves dropping.

Peter, its not that he deserves to be dropped...but he was playing his role for England that he plays for the Tigers....which i feel is not the game Englands six should be playing at the moment.....

We need a 6...in fact a back row...that will get stuck in and win us some ball...not a 6 that hangs out disrupting the opposition midifield.....

Robshaw and Wood, could offer that as a combo...

I posted a thread about Locks for the 6N a few weeks ago and it's just as well we all had a good debate about prospects etc... as it's now starting to become a real problem. With Deacon out injured for a while, and Lawes looking unlikely to be making the first game or so these are the options as I see it:

Attwood
Parling
Garvey
Robson
Palmer
Kitchener
Slater
Borthwick
Botha
Kennedy
Hudson

I have left out some long term injured and emerging talent such as: Day, Launchbury, Savage, Matthews etc...

By the way FormerlyKnownAsSam, have Leicester still got that former U20 lock Green I think was his name?

My picks would be 4. Attwood 5. Palmer 18. Robson - I am aware Attwood has been a little up and down recently but he has all the attributes for a good solid 4 and carries well which England really need in the pack at the moment, particularly with Easter looking like he's out the EPS. He has also been around the England fringes for a while now and wouldn't be totally new.

I said last time that I didn't think Palmer would be selected re RFU policy but that now looks erroneous given his rumoured retention in the EPS and rightly so in my opinion. He's a good line-out operator and excellent around the park, if a little old for the 2015 Grand Vision - I would see Robson as a great replacement for him in the pack with similarly excellent line-out skills and he's young enough.

As for the others, rather than bore everyone with a great diatribe about each i'll just say that Garvey I think is a great prospect, but needs a bit more exposure with Irish. Hudson is too old to be a new arrival in the squad at this stage and the same may be said for Kennedy, whilst previously capped he's too old going forward to 2015. Kitchener will be as good as he has looked at times one day but as yet this isn't it. Slater played superbly on the weekend against Sale, but needs some testing in the HC before international honours are extended. Borthwick and Botha I feel the less said about the better frankly. we know Borth is a genius in the lineout, but to my mind lacks far too much around the park, particularly with England's non-traditional mobile pack these days we need some good strong carriers.

Honourable mention to Parling who I would have on the bench if he can prove his fitness a bit more. He was outstanding at the start of the season, but I feel Robson deserves his place at present, but he should be considered for a start at some point.

By the way FormerlyKnownAsSam, have Leicester still got that former U20 lock Green I think was his name?

Did his cruciate knee I think, last I heard he was comparing mobility scooters with Newby. Should be back sometime in the next month or so I'd imagine as he had the surgery about the same time as Newbs. Will probably go back to Notts to prove his fitness with some Tigers A Team games as well.

How long is it since Slater got his last yellow? He was a real liability for soft penalties and a card machine when he first started with Tigers but has settled down. Hes still a long way down the pecking order for England i wouldve thought though.

It does seem that with Deacon and Lawes out that Palmer would be hard to overlook assuming his release can be secured. After that Attwood would be next in line as the pecking order was, Parlings not really an option for the start of the torunament given his injury problems.

How long is it since Slater got his last yellow? He was a real liability for soft penalties and a card machine when he first started with Tigers but has settled down. Hes still a long way down the pecking order for England i wouldve thought though.

Very different player from last year. Stopped trying to be clever and is getting a lot more physical. Then again he is learning from Louis Deacon so no suprise he's getting better at the grunt work but keeping the footballing skills (great hands and balance for a big man). Got to agree that he should be done the pecking order a bit, he's young but developing fast so maybe a Saxons place. He's not ready to go toe to toe with the likes of POC in a full blooded international. Another year or two of development and he could be but not now.

Completely agree on Slater, not near the team yet but he does have the makings of a good modern lock forward - strength but with hands and awareness. What about dear old Simon Shaw, had an outstanding game against Biaritz for Toulon....

I see the Telegraph are tipping Botha to be in the squad. Oh dear..

I see the Telegraph are tipping Botha to be in the squad. Oh dear...

Oh dear indeed. He looked thoroughly out of place in the Saxons in the Churchill Cup and his form isn't as good as it was last season. England can't be that desperate for some grunt in the engine room. Attwood or Garvey would be better selections.

Attwood is tipped along with him but Garvey for grunt or Robson would be much better choices. He's been dropped a couple of times by Sarries this season already for Kruis the youngster.