The Rugby Club - EPS Selections

Did my ears deceive me? Did Will Greenwood, a man I have a lot of respect for both as a person and as a pundit, suggest that Borthwick should be back in the EPS?

Dewi Morris disagreed. Rightly so, that ship sailed years ago. Borthwick epitomises static and predictable rugby. Morris has been an advocate of bringing through young and dynamic players for ages, now under Stuart Lancaster, England have a chance to do just that, and I sincerely hope that they do.

It was discussed on the show and I personally tend to agree that England should go into the 6N with as many young players as possible and play with the shackles off, would finishing 4th or 5th really be that bad if it meant progression in the long term? Surely the goal must be to win WC 2015 and surely now is the time to start working towards that.

I agree with picking many young players. What would your team look like?

I agree Borthwicks ship has sailed....but he is experienced and a lineout expert...something we do need in the team....but who do we have thats the right candidate...

As much as i want the youngsters to come through....i fear putting a team of kids out against the Scots in the opening day.....

Palmer will be in there at least then...do we go for a real lineout expert like Palring or Robson....or go for the bruiser like Garvey.

That then brings in quetions for the back row...with Robson / Parling in...we can afford a more combantant back row combo....whereas with Garvey in...you might be inclined to go for Croft for his lineout ability??

We are not helped with injuries mounting....

With Lawes...Tuilagi....etc out for the opener....I'd probably go for....

1 Corbs
2 Hartley (Temp Captain)
3 Cole
4 Palmer
5 Garvey
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Hodgson
11 Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Trinder
14 Ahston
15 Foden

Did Dewi also suggest bringing in Micky Young to the EPS too.
I was also surprised to see his inclusion of JTH.

Why not Croft partnering Garvey in the 2nd row?

I just think Croft is too lightweight for an international second row....

Its actually something i think about Robson aswell....i do like my Second Rows to be big guys.....

GeordieFalcon I can understand that I just think that Croft's lineout ability and experience should be used.

He doesn't seem to fit into many backrow combos.

Geordie I like your team but still unsure about palmer.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

As much as i want the youngsters to come through....i fear putting a team of kids out against the Scots in the opening day.....

I think my point is that we, as supporters of England, should view the upcoming 6N as a developmental competition. Getting beaten is not a bad thing providing that the team played good, intelligent and creative rugby that can be progressed by the coaching staff into a winning formula.

It may indeed be that we suffer humiliation in the short term, but the old adage that you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs would seem to be appropriate. Putting out the same old same old on 4th Feb, just to grind out a win is self defeating.

Time for Trumpton what team would you pick?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I just think Croft is too lightweight for an international second row....

Its actually something i think about Robson aswell....i do like my Second Rows to be big guys.....

ooohhh suits you sir

Why not just pick your best team regardless of age? That will contain several youngsters.

It doesn't take 4 years to build a squad why waste the chance to win trophies.

I firmly believe that this season and next season teams should simply be aiming to win. Then 2013/14 and 2014/15 (and the summer tests) allow for plenty of time for RWC development.

I think its amazing anyone would truly believe that you need to be picking people in February 2012 for something that isn't due to start until September 2015.

Pick your best team - it will have youngsters in it, of that I'm sure. Then after the Lions (which is going to massively upset squad development anyway) re-evaluate the squad with a shift towards the RWC. There will be still 2 years which is plenty of time.

red stag I agree but geordie's team would be closest to our best side in my opinion bar possibly Palmer whose form I am unsure of.

I think that's youthful enough.

If Flood,Tuilagi and Lawes weren't injured they would have been starting.

I guess that it comes down to persnal choice stag. I would prefer to pick a team now with one eye on 2015 in order to start building a stable and experienced team.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I just think Croft is too lightweight for an international second row....

Its actually something i think about Robson aswell....i do like my Second Rows to be big guys.....

Dean Schofields still only 32......

I dont see Croft as a valid second row though as Engkland are likely to go with a lightweight backrow. There does have to be some balance in a pack.

eirebilly wrote:I guess that it comes down to persnal choice stag. I would prefer to pick a team now with one eye on 2015 in order to start building a stable and experienced team.

Like the one that won the 2003 WC.

I think its been proven that it does, in actual fact, take more than a couple of years to build a WC winning side, this would (i'm guessing) be even more pertinent to a young and inexperienced side because it would probably take a year at least to finalise pairings/combinations and longer than that for the team to gel into an empathetic unit.

I think given the current second row situation, Palmer is incredibly likely to start, if not just for his experience. I rate him highly, and he's decent in the lineout. I think pairing him with Attwood or Garvey would be a good move, since Palmer isn't actually that bulky himself, and could do with a bruiser there. That being said, with Robshaw and Morgan starting in the backrow, we do have the option of starting a lighter-weight second row, since they're so big.
Wood is like for like with Croft concerning the lineout, but offers more around the park than him so should start ahead, with Croft on the bench. What's Robshaw like as a lineout operator? Pretty good surely?

Time For Trumpton wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I guess that it comes down to persnal choice stag. I would prefer to pick a team now with one eye on 2015 in order to start building a stable and experienced team.

Like the one that won the 2003 WC.

I think its been proven that it does, in actual fact, take more than a couple of years to build a WC winning side, this would (i'm guessing) be even more pertinent to a young and inexperienced side because it would probably take a year at least to finalise pairings/combinations and longer than that for the team to gel into an empathetic unit.

I would certainly sacrafice short term sucess for long term stability thats for sure.

I still dont understand what on earth Morgan has done to be selected so far - hes a guy with potential but the way hes been talked up you would expect him to be Welsh..

I am also amazed with the way in which Croft has been talked down so much

Anyways - not so long to wait anymore

LostinWales; the talk of Morgan is because England are extremely limited there at the moment, and the prospect of a true out-and-out 8 is tantalising.

Croft is a magnificent player, and I'm a huge fan of his, but I just don't think he's the right man for the England backrow at the moment because it's hard to balance a back row with him in it. I know people disagree with this, but this is just how I feel personally. That being said, Croft has really upped his game for Tigers this season, and his work in the tight and at the breakdown has really improved.

Lostinwales....

Its not that Croft is being talked down...its the fact that him being in...means a change in the balance of the pack....because he's very different to traditional 6's. He is a trememdous athlete and player....and awesome lineout jumper. But people just question his grunt in the tight....something Wood (a similar frame) actually offers...

The curious thing about Greenwood suggesting Borthwick was that he said it was because of what he brought to the line out and that he wouldn't ask him to do any carrying or get involved in open play. Yet the EQ player that tops the league for lineout wins and steals is Robson (47 wins to SB's 38, 5 steals to SB's 2), and he also has more ability with ball in hand (1 clean break to SB's 0, 4 offloads to SB's 0, 3 defenders beaten to SB's 0, 1 try assist to SB's 0).

niwatts

You'd be more comfortable with Borthwick calling the line-out, especially at International level (where he's been there and done it). Would you ask Robson to call the line-out on his first cap?

Pick the best team, that will involve a number of youngsters. Palmer, Waldrom and Hodgson (because of Flood's injury) would be the only 3 over-30s I would start in the Scotland game. Like Cueto helped with the bedding in of Ashton and Foden, Hodgson can help bed in a couple of new centres, Palmer can buddy-up with a new second row (as Deacon and Lawes are both out).

My team:
Corbisiero, Hartley (C), Cole, Attwood, Palmer, Robshaw, Wood, Waldrom.
Youngs, Hodgson, Banahan, Barritt, Trinder, Ashton, Foden.
Gray, Doran-Jones, Croft, Morgan, Simpson, Farrell, Sharples.

Changes pretty much daily, but there it is. Assuming Lawes and Tuilagi are ruled out, with Flood definitely out.

robbo277 wrote:niwatts

You'd be more comfortable with Borthwick calling the line-out, especially at International level (where he's been there and done it). Would you ask Robson to call the line-out on his first cap?

If the other option was recalling Borthwick, then yes. Robson calls the Quins lineout and only Northampton have lost fewer lineouts this season. He's not some young inexperienced pup, he's 26yo with 6 seasons of professional rugby under his belt.

Borthwick may well have greater experience at calling the line-out at international level, but I wouldn't be as comfortable with the rest of his game as I would with Robson, and I don't think you can afford to have players at international level that have been proven to be lacking in key areas of play.

To be fair I wouldn't pick either of them, I'm just not sure about Robson at the top level, I don't think he'll be effective against some of the best locks out there. (Borthwick I am more sure of - I don't want him!)

GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree Borthwicks ship has sailed....but he is experienced and a lineout expert...something we do need in the team....but who do we have thats the right candidate...

As much as i want the youngsters to come through....i fear putting a team of kids out against the Scots in the opening day.....

Palmer will be in there at least then...do we go for a real lineout expert like Palring or Robson....or go for the bruiser like Garvey.

That then brings in quetions for the back row...with Robson / Parling in...we can afford a more combantant back row combo....whereas with Garvey in...you might be inclined to go for Croft for his lineout ability??

We are not helped with injuries mounting....

With Lawes...Tuilagi....etc out for the opener....I'd probably go for....

1 Corbs
2 Hartley (Temp Captain)
3 Cole
4 Palmer
5 Garvey
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Hodgson
11 Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Trinder
14 Ahston
15 Foden

I think you've pretty much nailed it for me too marra. The back row looks young, hungry and quick. In the absence of a genuine openside consistently putting his hand up, it's about the best we could do IMO.

I'm a big fan of Garvey and I think we would add some genuine ballast to the engine room, lets face it, we don't seem to have a huge amount to lose at this point in second row terms. You could call for Robson but I think he would be a candidate to replace Palmer rather than the enforcer, same thing with Parling. There is Attwood too and if keeps playing like he did against London Irish, I would like to see him involved. God speed you Mr Lawes!

Aside from that, maybe having Farrell instead of Trinder to take the kicking pressure off Charlie.

Borthwick is a scary prospect I would say, and not for opposing teams. He was harshly dealt with when he was arround the England team I think, he's a model professional and a line-out supremo. But we all know the other areas of his game are just too weak. England would need a monster pack just to offset his inability to carry and put himself about.

I would have Palmer starting and calling the line-out which he's done a number of times before when not playing with Deacon. I think Robson on the bench to pick up the routine and start him for Italy possibly. Garvey is a great prospect but i'd have Attwood at the moment, but Garvey in the EPS

I'd rather have Parling than Robson (or Borthwick) as back-up to Palmer. The guy's class and could replace Palmer sooner than later in my opinion. But Palmer should at least be in there to help Attwood or Garvey or whoever through their first caps.

Robson displayed his compete lack of physicality tonight for me, he's like Borthwick mk II. We seriously need better than him

On the flanks judging by today's performance Robshaw completely outplayed Wood despite being on the losing side has to start and I think Lancaster has a tough choice between Wood and Croft, however I am siding with Croft at the moment.

6. T.Croft
7. C.Robshaw
8. B.Morgan

robbo277 wrote:I'd rather have Parling than Robson (or Borthwick) as back-up to Palmer. The guy's class and could replace Palmer sooner than later in my opinion. But Palmer should at least be in there to help Attwood or Garvey or whoever through their first caps.

Agree with that Robbo, Parling is a superb player and really impressed me at the start of the season. He only has a couple of games to prove himself fit from his latest injury though and ideally he could do with a bit more rugby. But I do think he's a class act, just getting on a touch now (28 I think)

Corbs
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Parling
Croft
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Flood
Wade
Twelvetrees
Barritt
Ashton
Foden

A couple of points on some seemingly odd selections:
The second row-I really want an enforcer to partner Parling who for me has to be there. Usually I'd go with Lawes but as he's out I'll plump for Attwood as I don't think Palmer would be effective at this. Parling seems like a natural test match player and will be the lynchpin of the lineouts.

The backrow- Croft brings pace and brekdown skills to the three, Robshaw brings bulk and power in the tight and again is effective on the floor (when Dave Pearson isn't ref) Morgan is an unknown but about the only option.

Centres- It's been debated more then anything else on here and this is for the short term only. But while Manu is injured I'd have Billy at 12 and Barritt at 13, once Manu is back i'd take Twelvetrees out and move Brad to 12. The experience will be good for both in the long run.

With you there...

Parling back today, hope he can quickly get in some form and push for an England shirt. As much as I like Robson he wasn't great on his own ball last night and lacks the physicality to step up that extra level, I think he's a top AP player but just lacks the extra quality. With Deacon and Lawes out I'd go for an engine room of:

4. Palmer
5. Parling (form dependant)

19. Garvey/Attwood

Attwood has been playing well of late and deserves to be in there, similar with Garvey.

An EPS engine room of:

Deacon
Parling
Attwood
Lawes

Garvey in the Saxons to be brought in along with Palmer who's spot in EPS is wasted. With a Saxons lock pairing of Garvey/Robson.

Interesting that a lot of 606v2 punters including myself have favoured Trinder at OC but not considered by Greenwood.

Joseph is injured isn't he?

robshaw4england wrote:On the flanks judging by today's performance Robshaw completely outplayed Wood despite being on the losing side has to start and I think Lancaster has a tough choice between Wood and Croft, however I am siding with Croft at the moment.

I think that is missing the different roles they were employed in. Robshaw played blindside (his best position) and definitely had the better game, carrying well and tackling everything as a good six should. Wood was playing openside and as well as making plenty of tackles was a key part of Saints' noticable dominance at the breakdown.

Those are the exact same roles I'd play them together in for England. Croft doing nothing wrong, but on the bench for me and the better impact player.

stlowe wrote:


I think that is missing the different roles they were employed in. Robshaw played blindside (his best position) and definitely had the better game, carrying well and tackling everything as a good six should. Wood was playing openside and as well as making plenty of tackles was a key part of Saints' noticable dominance at the breakdown.

Those are the exact same roles I'd play them together in for England. Croft doing nothing wrong, but on the bench for me and the better impact player.

Spot on and Croft is the perfect man for the bench in my opinion.

I've just seen that on rugby club (repeats it must be said!) and was shocked. Whilst Borthwicks lineout credentials are undoubted I'm afraid his time has passed.

The squad will be very interesting though especially with Floods injury. Whilst injuries are never good (especially as a Tigers fan) it opens up the squad for a couple of youngsters if wanted.

Personally I'd go for:

Props - Corbs,Cole,PDJ,Stevens,Marler
Hookers - Hartley,Webber,Mears
Second Rows - Lawes,Parling,Attwood
Flankers - Croft,Wood,Robshaw
Number 8 - Easter,Morgan

Scrum Half - Youngs,Simpson
Fly Half - Flood,Farrell,Hodgson
Inside Centre - Allen,Twelvetrees
Outside Centre – Tuilagi,Trinder,Barritt
Wing - Cueto,Strettle,JSD,Ashton
Full Back - Foden,Brown

Remember Palmer is unavailable due to the RFU’s policy of players playing club rugby abroad. As are Haskell,Cipriani,Armitage,etc.

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Lawes (Attwood if unavailable)
5.Parling
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Easter

9.Youngs
10.Flood (Farrell when unavailable)

11.Strettle
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi (Trinder if unavailable)
14.JSD
15.Foden

16.Webber
17.PDJ
18.Attwood
19.Wood
20.Simpson
21.Farrell
22.Cueto

Right then starting with the forwards the front row picks itself.

In the second row Lawes is first choice when fit and alongside him Parling offers a great work rate and would run the line out.

In back row Croft and Robshaw could be an outstanding 6/7 complementing each other very well. Easter will be controversial I know but offers needed experience, solidity at the base of the scrum (often underestimated!) and great hands in attack/line out.

As for the backs Youngs and Flood have both been playing well and can get the backs moving well. Youngs and Simpson are similar players so could be easily interchanged. In Floods absence I'd go for Farrell starting and Hodgson on the bench for scotland/Italy.

In the centres Allen is well overdue a second chance, he should’ve gone to the world cup and needs to be back in the EPS now as he’s was by far the standout IC in the premiership last season. Tuilagi picks himself when fit and if not Barritt or Sharples are both able replacements. Twelvetrees needs time in and round the international set up as he is one of the most talented players in England at the moment.

With the wings I know I may cause argument dropping Ashton and picking two players old enough to have chest hair but JSD and Strettle are two of our most potent attacking weapons and should be used as such. JSD will split opinion as usual but deserve a chance. On Ashton I know his try scoring record is excellent but a lot of his game i.e. defence and groundwork in ruck and mauls is terrible. If you want evidence of his tackling watch Matt Smiths try vs Northampton!

At full back Foden is still man in charge in my opinion but Brown is playing extremely well and wouldn’t be surprised if he were to overtake Foden as he’s playing currently!