Demented Mole Blog - Munster's forgotten generation

by Mickado Fri 06 Jan 2012, 8:53 am

First topic message reminder :

Very interesting read from the Demented Mole blog this week about Munster's lost generation.
It's long and there's a lot of detail, but it's well worth the read.

http://dementedmole.com/2012/01/05/m85-86/

The Mole was second-guessing himself over the holiday season. Was it The Fear? Partially. It was also the feeling that he can be a little bit too harsh on certain elements of the Munster set-up.
Provincial fans can be prickly with regards to defending their team’s players. It would seem from some fairly frank conversations over the last couple of weeks [and especially in light of the recent interpros] that it’s entirely possible to hold two valuations of the same player in the same mind: one that is voiced in the company of your own fans, and one that is voiced in the company of other fans.

A Tale Of Two Cities

This was considered with particular reference to the recent travails of Duncan Williams, and indeed to the fascinatingly varied make up of the Munster scrum-half corps. Williams had a tough day at the office against Ulster in Ravenhill, but every player has tough days. What was interesting was the divergent responses which his performance generated from Munster fans.

—Duncan Williams: Next Big Thing or on his way to Palookaville? Does it have to be either?
For some, Williams is still a young player that demands sympathetic handling. For others, he’s a guy that simply hasn’t made the grade. Of course, there are always going to be differing opinions on players amongst any fanbase, but something that continually piques the Mole’s interest is Irish rugby fans’ attitude to age in the game.

Williams was born in April 1986; he’ll turn 26 before the season ends. Tom Gleeson, another starter for Munster last Friday, was born in September 1985 – 26 already. Between them, the two lads have made just 19 starts for Munster over three seasons. Given that there’s about 30 games every season, that’s 19 starts from 180+ opportunities. Even allowing for injury, that’s a fairly startling level of inactivity.

It’s not like we’re examining the learning curve years [say 19-22, the typical academy age-group]: we’re looking at guys who should be entering the prime of their careers. That they’re not doing so is highly suggestive that there’s not really going to be a prime for them.

That’s a harsh judgment, and who knows, maybe a run of games will see them make the breakthrough. However, on examining the evidence you’d have to say that this ‘run of games’ isn’t going to be forthcoming.

There are a couple of other players who fall into the Williams/Gleeson bracket: Darragh Hurley [October 1985] and Billy Holland [August 1985]. Hurley debuted for Munster as a 20 year old back in September 2006 and even played some Heineken Cup rugby that season, but his career has been badly damaged by injury after injury and seems to have stalled beyond recovery: he’s started just five games in the last five seasons. You look at that and have to think that maybe he’s just not cut out for professional rugby, because that’s half your career right there.

Holland at least plays a bit, but in the middle of the fifth season of his professional career is no closer to Heineken Cup rugby than he was in his first or second. With 23 starts in four and a half seasons under his belt, he’s averaging about 5 starts in the Pro12/ML per season. He hasn’t been massively hamstrung with injury, he’s just a guy who doesn’t get selected very much.

Peter Borlase [May 1985] is in the middle of his second season with Munster, having arrived from Canterbury at the start of the 2010-11 season. He has made just four starts since he arrived, none of them this season. Now, Richardt Strauss [another project player] didn’t make a huge impact when he arrived in Leinster, but that was largely because Michael Cheika refused to pick him; when Joe Schmidt came in as coach, Strauss earned a place as one of the first names down on the team sheet.

Borlase has seen Fisher replaced as Munster forwards’ coach by Foley, and still hasn’t seen much action. Maybe he’ll start proving his worth as an IRFU special project once he returns to full fitness, but the jury is out … a long way out. When players don’t have a specific long term injury keeping them off the pitch and yet miss a lot of games, then there’s usually something afoot either form or behavior-wise.

Mondale To Hart: Where’s The Beef?

This is where the second-guessing comes in. There are a whole range of issues that crop up when discussing the careers of players like the five outlined above.

The first is to compare them with their contemporaries and see how they relate in terms of their standing in the squad.

—Click to embiggen; concentrate to make cromulent
While the progress of Devin Toner [June 1986] hasn’t always been smooth, he has racked up 82 appearances for Leinster since he first donned the blue as a gangly 19 year old back in January 2006. It seems incredible now that Cheika would put him in that position, because it’s obvious to most half-intelligent rugby fans that Dev was always going to be a guy who would take considerable time to grow into his height.

His early debut is something that the Mole sees as going against him in journalists’ appraisals: everyone seems to think he should be ‘further on’, but he’s not much more than 25 years old, which isn’t particularly old for a second row. His best years are clearly ahead of him, and it’s not at all unlikely that he could still be playing for Leinster in nine or ten years’ time. After all, Mal O’Kelly only retired at 35, and Leo Cullen is still kicking within days of his 34th birthday.

Rob Kearney [March 1986] has made 111 appearances – Nelson! – for Leinster, as well as 33 for Ireland and 3 more for the Lions; all this despite the fact that he missed almost the entire 2010/11 season with a serious knee injury. Fergus McFadden [June 1986] has made 61 appearances for Leinster [somewhat surprisingly, the vast majority of them – 46 – being starts], despite having to share the same positions as Gordon D’Arcy, Brian O’Driscoll and Felipe Contepomi.

Fionn Carr [Dec 1985] moved back to Leinster after racking up 73 games [and 34 tries] for Connacht, and has managed 3 tries in 9 starts since he returned to the blue. Sean Cronin [May 1986] is another fresh arrival from Connacht, where he put in a 65 game stint after arriving from Munster. He’s up against fierce competition in Richardt Strauss [Jan 1986], who qualifies for Ireland in September 2012 and has already made a significant mark on Leinster rugby in his 51 games.

Jonny Sexton [July 1985] has made 64 starts in his 83 appearances; this is the seventh season he has taken the pitch for Leinster.

You look at this group of Leinster players [Sexton, Carr, Strauss, Kearney, Cronin, McFadden, Toner], all of whom were born within a 12-month period from June 1985 [Sexton] to June 1986 [McFadden & Toner], and a couple of things stand out. Five of the seven are capped internationals – the exceptions being Carr and Strauss – and all of them have played more than 50 games for their province/s.

There couldn’t be a stronger contrast with their Munster contemporaries, none of whom have come anywhere near a cap, nor even particularly close to starting some games in the Heineken Cup, the typical stepping stone to international rugby.

The Fear Factor

The second step is to consider their motivations in staying put in a situation where progress – if any – is measured in increments so small as to appear farcical.

This is a surprisingly sensitive issue. Suggesting that players are happy in a comfort zone where they are called upon very infrequently to actually play matches can be taken as questioning their competitive will, and yet it’s an eminently reasonable viewpoint. If these guys aren’t happy to be playing second fiddle, why don’t they back their talent and try to make something of a career for themselves somewhere else?

Do they just enjoy walking around Limerick/Cork kitted up to the nines in Munster gear? Is it that simple?

Or is it that the loyalty to Munster runs so deep that they’re willing to put aside the obvious fact that they are spending a significant portion of a short career doing little else but holding pads?

Is it that there is some lack of self-confidence? Munster players used to leave the province to try their luck elsewhere if they didn’t feel that they were making progress: Mick O’Driscoll headed off to Perpignan from 03-05 at 24 years old when it became clear to him that he had lost out to Donncha O’Callaghan in the bid to replace Mick Galway. Micko won 21 of his 23 Irish caps after his return to Munster.

Stephen Keogh left Munster at 24 years old to move to Leinster for the 06-07 season; Trev Hogan [26 at the time] did the same. Both had more than 50 Munster caps at that stage of their careers, but could see that they weren’t likely to pass the players ahead of them in the pecking order.

—Mike Ross in his days at Harlequins, where he became the best Irish scrummager of the decade
Eoin Reddan left Munster at the end of the 04-05 season [again at 24 years old] for what turned out to be four seasons at Wasps, having spent a couple of seasons behind Peter Stringer. Mike Ross headed off to Harlequins in 2006 [aged 26] for three seasons, and returned to Ireland a much in-demand player.

Look at those players and the ages at which they left Munster: all five of them between 24 and 26. Fringe Munster players used to want to play rugby, get ahead and make something of themselves. Now it seems that they are all too ready just to play games against Newport Gwent Dragons, Aironi and Connacht and hold the bags for the rest of the season.

The Queue Is More Important Than The Talent

The third element is to wonder whether there are two different but equally effective ways of managing players’ careers.

—Germany Coughlan: Munster's own Rocky story
Munster have got two and a half excellent seasons out of James ‘Germany’ Coughlan after first giving him a development contract back in 2006 as a late-blooming 25 year old. Coughlan had earned his spurs with Dolphin but was essentially a bit-part player for his first three seasons with Munster, only starting 8 games in that period. His first big season for Munster was 09-10 as a 28/29 year old, but it was his cracking 10-11 season that earned him his Munster Player of the Season award. Now, there’s always a bit of a lean towards players who are trojans of the Pro 12/Celtic League ahead of those who spend more time with the international team – and rightly so, from the Mole’s point of view – but to come away ahead of the likes of 14-try Doug Howlett, Ronan O’Gara on a points-scoring career high [260 for the season] and perennial match-winner David Wallace is still a huge accomplishment.

Donnacha Ryan is another example. He was first capped by Declan Kidney for Ireland in November 2008 against Australia, but it wasn’t until almost two years later that he started his first HEC match for Munster [after which he was promptly dropped, unfortunately]. He turned 28 in December 2011, and it took him the guts of seven seasons to become a regular name on the team sheet for Munster’s HEC games.

One of the more cutting – and pithy – criticisms the Mole has heard applied to Munster over the last couple of years states that “the queue is more important than the talent”. Donncha O’Callaghan put it a little differently in his recent book, saying that Mick Galway didn’t hand over the jersey to him, but instead he had to reef it off him; anybody looking to take the No4 jersey away from O’Callaghan will have to do the same.

Saying that is all well and good, but living it out is another question entirely. In theory, it’s entirely plausible that a player could start every game of the season if he remained uninjured. In practice, he’d be a wreck by about February or March, just when the real business end kicks off. You need depth in every position, and you need guys who can step up to the plate if the man in possession loses form or fitness. The IRFU’s player management program does kickback to players competing for positions by taking the internationals out of the equation for parts of the season [and this allowing the competing players more gametime in the league], but when it comes to cup rugby, all too often the safety first approach to selection wins out.

There’s always an excuse to take a conservative outlook in selection [the 'we need to win this one' outlook] but a good coach balances that with the realization that you need depth, you need to not be utterly reliant on a single player in a position – at least where you can avoid it – and you need to take the occasional chance on younger players.

On the other hand, maybe Munster are better served by the older mindset of having to take the jersey away from the man in possession when his powers are fading.

Goodbye Sabermetrics, Hello Bludgeonmetrics

While that’s one way of looking at it, there’s a deeper reaching series of consequences to these C86 players not getting selected that often.

The first [and perhaps most obvious] one is that they’re taking a wage from Munster, money that could be used somewhere else. Munster have an enormous, 48-strong squad which – from the Mole’s point of view – carries a number of passengers. In a collision sport like rugby, the benefits of having a large squad are obvious: you will inevitably pick up injuries over the season, and it’s better to have experienced cover available than be left digging into the academy.

However, there has to be a play-off between the number of players you can contract and the number of players you should contract. Munster have found themselves in a situation where they have too many players who make three or four starts and a similar number of runs off the bench every season in the Pro 12 while never threatening a Heineken Cup squad.

For every game these guys get, there’s the suspicion that they are merely filling a space. There’s a negative pay-off further down the line, if you will. They’re taking odd minutes of gametime away from younger players who could prove to be an awful lot better than them.

The other viewpoint [and one mentioned very briefly above] is that no player thrives on patchy gametime – a game here, another one a month later, another after Christmas. These players aren’t really getting a fair crack of the whip to show what they can do, be it for better or worse. Obviously a coach isn’t single-mindedly focused on proving or disproving which of his players is good enough to make the grade – he’s got bigger things to worry about, like results – but the idea of giving a middle of the road player a significant run of games to prove whether he’s worth further investment shouldn’t be wholly disregarded.

The Final Straw That Broke The Camel’s Back And Gave Him A Kick In The Hole

Holland, Williams, Gleeson and Borlase have all been conclusively leapfrogged by younger colleagues.

■Peter O’Mahony [September 89] has started three of Munster’s four HEC games on the blindside ahead of Denis Leamy, never mind Billy Holland;
■Conor Murray [April 89] has become Ireland’s first-choice scrum-half, and skipped both Peter Stringer and Tomás O’Leary in the rankings, leaving Duncan Williams a long way back in the dust;
■Danny Barnes [October 89] made more starts in 2011 than Gleeson has in his entire Munster career to date; and
■Stephen Archer [January 88] is, with John Hayes’ re-retirement now behind us, Munster’s second-choice tighthead.
When The Hurley Burley’s Done, When The Battle’s Lost And Won

—Darragh Hurley: injury prone hardly covers it
The only one who hasn’t been conclusively outstripped is Darragh Hurley, which is a pretty stunning indictment of Munster’s situation at loosehead. They’ve got a hard-working NIQ in Wian du Preez who’s miles ahead of anyone else on the depth chart, an undeniably past-it 34 year old Marcus Horan in second place, perennial sicknote Hurley in third, and 23-year old academy player Dave Kilcoyne in fourth place.

Owing to injury, illness and selection, Hurley is still a largely inexperienced prop. The fact that this is his sixth season contracted to Munster is somewhat irrelevant: he’s played about as many matches in that time [36, with 14 starts] as a fit and able prop would manage in a season and a half. Obviously there’s more to progression than gametime alone, but to say it plays anything other than a significant part is simply obtuse.

Hurley might be well tuned in to how Munster do things, but injury hasn’t just kept him from playing games, it has kept him off the training pitch. There’s considerable ground to be made up there and, in all probability, somebody so injury prone for such long periods of his career isn’t going to come in and all of a sudden be able to play a number of 20-22 game seasons in a row, which shouldn’t be beyond the compass of any prop not subject to the IRFU player management program.

It has been apparent in recent times that Munster have no problem with flogging a dead horse when it comes to eeking out the careers of Generation Ligind players: Alan Quinlan played out a patchy and injured-afflicted last season up until two months away from his 37th birthday, and John Hayes was dragged out of retirement to pass his 38th birthday with Munster. On the other hand, Marcus Horan is simply not the physical specimen that either of these two players were, and the law of diminishing returns has been evident in his performances for three seasons. Munster are between a rock and a hard place at loosehead, which possibly explains the persistence with a player as injury-prone as Hurley.

Rugby is an extremely position-specific sport, and there are a number of limits imposed on the provincial teams by the IRFU with regards to recruitment. With the limit on NIQ players and the contractural veto held by the PCRG [Professional Contracts Review Group], it’s not really an open market when it comes to sourcing players. Munster have invested an awful lot of coaching, time and money in Hurley; unfortunately, there’s very little to show for their investment. In a different business, a line would be drawn under his contract and they’d move on. However, there’s no thriving market in Irish props; they can’t just cut their losses with him and go out an get another loosehead.

With that in mind, Munster don’t have a wide range of options to choose from with regards to how they proceed. The one that leaps out [and which they will likely pursue] is to make a move for Connacht’s Brett Wilkinson, a 28 year old South African-born loosehead who became qualified for Ireland through the three year residency rule. Wilkinson has appeared for the Wolfhounds for a number of seasons and was included in Declan Kidney’s training squad for RWC11 before a hamstring injury ruled him out of contention. A move to Munster would catapult him into immediate international contention, and also likely earn him a significant increase in salary.

Another move – or rather lack of a move – is simply to persist with the same personnel, and hope that Hurley can return from his current back injury before the end of this season to get himself some gametime. With a good pre-season behind him, he could then look to push himself ahead of Marcus Horan in the depth chart before Christmas 2012, with Dave Kilcoyne being exposed to more rugby as Horan turns 35. Wian du Preez would still play a major role as first choice, but then that’s why the provinces pay NIQ players.

The third idea is a little more left-field. Denis Fogarty is a talented front-rower, but has serious issues with a major part of the hooker’s position, namely throwing the ball into the line out. Even without Jerry Flannery, Munster are pretty well-stocked at No2 with Varley, Sherry, Fogarty and Sean Henry. Despite his recent injury, Sherry looks to be the coming man, which would see Fogarty squeezed out of the picture on his return.

—Make versatility your watchword, Fogs Jnr. That, or learn how to throw!
Essentially, the Mole’s idea would be that Fogs Jnr tries his hand at loosehead. At 28 years old, he’s in his eighth season with Munster, but is light on miles: he’s played 84 games for the provinces, but less than half of these [41, to be precise] have been starts. With Best, Cronin, Varley – and Richardt Strauss come September of this year, when he qualifies for Ireland – all ahead of him, his international hopes are numbered as a hooker. Putting his career with Munster first and making the most of it should be his priority, and improving his versatility to give himself a better chance of selection for more games is one way of going about it.

Obviously it’s a gambit that might not necessarily pay off, because scrummaging at professional level is a highly specialized subject. Still, Fogs isn’t exactly a front-row neophyte: he has played there at a high level for his entire career. With a lot of experience of hooker in the bank, it’s not as though he’s a total greenhorn when it comes to scrummaging. A summer spent learning the tricks of the trade with Paul McCarthy and BJ Botha would be time well spent, in the Mole’s opinion. He wouldn’t have to entirely throw in his hand at hooker; with so much time spent there, some of it [throwing aside, unfortunately] must be hardwired into him. Obviously, horning in on the loosehead racket would get up Horan’s nose, but what harm? He’s an irritable old sod and he’s on the way out anyway!

Punxutawney Phil

Winding up – finally! – brings us back to Williams, Gleeson, Holland and Hurley. Look at the dates involved. The players in question were born in 1985-86, meaning that they would have been between 19-20 when Declan Kidney resumed as Munster coach at the start of the 2005-06 season, and 22-23 when he left at the end of the 07-08 season. Dave Ryan [April 86] was another from that era, although he has mercifully been cut after just two starts in three seasons.

Added to the 85-86 crowd, there’s just one 1984-born graduate from the Munster Academy still contracted to the province, winger/fullback Denis Hurley. The Mole actually has quite a bit of time for Hurley, but it’s fair to say that his one test cap was of the softest of soft variety, coming as it did on a tour to the States in 2009 when the great majority of Ireland’s internationals were away in South Africa with the Lions.

Those birth dates [1984-86] neatly bracket the age-group overseen by the academy structures during Kidney’s second stint.

The Mole has no idea how interested Kidney was in the academy. He might have been hugely involved; after all, he had been a schoolteacher for many years and was a very successful underage coach. However, the evidence strongly points to the fact that during his Second Republic, the Munster Academy simply turned out a bunch of duds.

What do you think?

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 1:13 pm

Mickado wrote:BM, the article is about a crop of academy player born between 85 and 86. None of Earls, O'Mahony or Murray fit in there.

What are D Ryan (dob 1983), Eoin Reddan (dob 1980) etc. etc. being brought into the equasion then?

So, Munster have Duncan Williams, Tom Gleeson, Darragh Hurley, Billy Holland & Peter Borlase.

Seems to me to be highly selective on what suits his argument (which looks more like how bad are Munster at bringing through players and how good are Leinster).

The reason why Munster have a large squad is because not so long ago, the video analyst had to start a competetive game because Munster were short players. And then we had the team manager lining out at full back in '08 in the Heineken Cup.

Also, its not right to drag players who are not training as professionals from the AIL to play professional rugby.

by Don Alfonso Fri 06 Jan 2012, 1:17 pm

Red Right - I made that point previously about Rory Best, and whether his recent excellent Ireland form was due to not having Flannery breathing down his nck.

by Mickado Fri 06 Jan 2012, 1:24 pm

Sin é wrote:
Mickado wrote:BM, the article is about a crop of academy player born between 85 and 86. None of Earls, O'Mahony or Murray fit in there.

What are D Ryan (dob 1983), Eoin Reddan (dob 1980) etc. etc. being brought into the equasion then?
So, Munster have Duncan Williams, Tom Gleeson, Darragh Hurley, Billy Holland & Peter Borlase.

Seems to me to be highly selective on what suits his argument (which looks more like how bad are Munster at bringing through players and how good are Leinster).

The reason why Munster have a large squad is because not so long ago, the video analyst had to start a competetive game because Munster were short players. And then we had the team manager lining out at full back in '08 in the Heineken Cup.

Also, its not right to drag players who are not training as professionals from the AIL to play professional rugby.

Did you not read the article? He mentions them specifically.

by Red Right Fri 06 Jan 2012, 1:33 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Red Right - I made that point previously about Rory Best, and whether his recent excellent Ireland form was due to not having Flannery breathing down his nck.

Don, its an interesting one - some players benefit from that kind of pressure and others fall away. IMHO I think Best has just put a lot of work in to his ball handling. As long as I can remember watching Best I was always happy with his scrummaging and work rate, he was always solid at the breakdown but his performances were only ever really let down by his handling (no matter how well a guy plays the errors with ball in hand will always be highlighted to an extent that completely override anything good he might have done). He seems to have sorted that out and carries now with confidence which makes him a lot more visible in every game - but you may well be right in that knowing he was a nailed on started developed that confidence even more.

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 1:42 pm

Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Mickado wrote:BM, the article is about a crop of academy player born between 85 and 86. None of Earls, O'Mahony or Murray fit in there.

What are D Ryan (dob 1983), Eoin Reddan (dob 1980) etc. etc. being brought into the equasion then?
So, Munster have Duncan Williams, Tom Gleeson, Darragh Hurley, Billy Holland & Peter Borlase.

Seems to me to be highly selective on what suits his argument (which looks more like how bad are Munster at bringing through players and how good are Leinster).

The reason why Munster have a large squad is because not so long ago, the video analyst had to start a competetive game because Munster were short players. And then we had the team manager lining out at full back in '08 in the Heineken Cup.

Also, its not right to drag players who are not training as professionals from the AIL to play professional rugby.

Did you not read the article? He mentions them specifically.

Sorry, I picked up from what you posted that it was about players born in a certain period of time (85/86). So thats not the case then?

I've read the blog and the only thing I'm getting from it is that he is having a few digs at players who haven't made it for whatever reason. FFS, he even has a go at Denis Hurley for getting one 'soft' international cap.

Its his opinion that Munster should let all these players go. I understand why Munster don't. Fogs may not be the best thrower in the world, but until the emergence of Sherry (who is 22/23) at the end of last season, Munster needed him.

EDIT: just to add.

He seems to think it was a good idea that Eoin Reddan moved to Wasps because he wasn't getting any starts with Munster. What he fails to mention that Reddan was at Wasps for a season before he got any there. He could also have included in this discussion that in interview recently, Eoin Reddan says he regrets leaving Munster at the time - he now thinks he should have stayed and fought for a spot.

He could also have looked into how well Trevor Hogan did with Leinster when he moved there. Hogan started 2 Heineken Cup games in 2 seasons with Munster. At leinster, he started 8 in 5 seasons! (I know he was injured towards the end of his career, but since the blogger doesn't seem to think its a factor in D Ryan's career (and he doesn't seem to know that Donncha Ryan didn't start playing rugby until he was 18), I won't use it as a mitigating circumstance either.

by SecretFly Fri 06 Jan 2012, 1:57 pm

Red Right wrote:
As with ROG 10 years ago - once Sexton stops looking over his shoulder he will become a far better and more consistent player at international level, of that I have little doubts.

Yep, that's the deal. But I think Sexton just needs now to relax into his role more and perhaps accept the inevitable rather than fight against it. Accepting that O'Gara is there might actually keep him longer and longer on the field. Fighting mentally with the idea will continue to add ripples into his game...and everytime there is a ripple, O'Gara comes on.

O'Gara isn't going quietly, and anyone who knows the man wouldn't expect him to. His attitude is what helps his game. He's a stubborn 'old' guy. He's saying to Sexton, 'nope, you're not going to get rid of me. I'm here for as long as my own game meets International standards. You're going to be looking over your shoulder at me on the bench until the day I retire from International.'

It certainly brings a unique shape to Irish sides, where the story is always the young prince who can't shake off the father King. I'm not really still certain whether it's a good thing or bad.

I know we all always say what keeps a player honest is looking over his shoulder at the alternative waiting, and yet, we deny this rule when talking of OHs. For him, the role should belong to him...and the newspapers should be full of doom and gloom if he picks up a headcold. When panic strikes if an OH has the flu, then you know you have a world class OH.

Well, yes - but that's a pretty unsteady foundation for any side, isn't it. Ask NZ, who almost fluffed yet another WC when their living God got injured. Sometimes we and the media overdo the histrionics on the OH role and that creates it's own pressure on incumbant players.

by red_stag Fri 06 Jan 2012, 1:59 pm

ROG is going to be the crankiest old man in the world.

by **rodders** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:09 pm

Its not as straightforward at that secretfly. Fly half is the most important postion on the pitch.

Its very hard to step up and feel like a senior player and descision maker within the side, which is what Sexton needs to do, when you know you will be rotated every 2 or 3 games and when you do start you will be coming off after 60 min no matter how well you are playing.

ROG couldn't do it when he was being hauled off for Humphreys and Sexton is struggling with it too.

Its interesting that Sextons best performance by far came against England after ROG was dropped for a poor showing against Wales. He looked liberated and the swagger he has for Leinster was there.

On a lot of other occaisions, hes done ok but has been a bit subdued possibly because he knew he was keeping the jersey warm for ROG.

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:17 pm

roddersm wrote:
ROG couldn't do it when he was being hauled off for Humphreys and Sexton is struggling with it too.

ROG was doing it well enough to get selected ahead of Humphreys for a Lions Tour.

At club level, ROG kept Jeremy Staunton who was regarded as being very talented at bay in his early career at Munster.

by **rodders** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:27 pm

Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
ROG couldn't do it when he was being hauled off for Humphreys and Sexton is struggling with it too.

ROG was doing it well enough to get selected ahead of Humphreys for a Lions Tour.

At club level, ROG kept Jeremy Staunton who was regarded as being very talented at bay in his early career at Munster.

Jeremy Staunton was and is rubbish. Get a grip FFS. ROG was still jostling for the 10 shirt leading into 2003 RWC, 2 years after the Lions tour so clearly it wasn't plain sailing for ROG in his first few seasons.

In fact he arguably didn't establish himself fully as an international 10 until around 2004, coincidentally after he threatened to retire if EOS didn't keep hauling him off. Shortly after this Humphreys retired and ROG went from strength to strength.

In 2004 ROG was 26/7, about the same age as Sexton now, and in his 4th season of international rugby.

by red_stag Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:37 pm

Rodders - please provide a link saying that ROG threatened to retire in 2003/2004

by **rodders** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:41 pm

Its common knowledge stag. He told EOS that being taken off was affecting his game and if he wasn't playing 80min of every match then he wouldn't play.

Humphreys denied this when he was asked about it but its was a major factor in his early retirement. I recall at the time he made the comment that he didn't feel he would be selected no matter how well he was playing.

I'll try and find a link.

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:42 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
roddersm wrote:
ROG couldn't do it when he was being hauled off for Humphreys and Sexton is struggling with it too.

ROG was doing it well enough to get selected ahead of Humphreys for a Lions Tour.

At club level, ROG kept Jeremy Staunton who was regarded as being very talented at bay in his early career at Munster.

Jeremy Staunton was and is rubbish. Get a grip FFS. ROG was still jostling for the 10 shirt leading into 2003 RWC, 2 years after the Lions tour so clearly it wasn't plain sailing for ROG in his first few seasons.

In fact he arguably didn't establish himself fully as an international 10 until around 2004, coincidentally after he threatened to retire if EOS didn't keep hauling him off. Shortly after this Humphreys retired and ROG went from strength to strength.

In 2004 ROG was 26/7, about the same age as Sexton now, and in his 4th season of international rugby.

ROG was struggling with being hauled off for no reason. Kidney has had every reason to haul Sexton off or start ROG.

Leinster should consider getting rid of Madigan - Sexton won't be able to cope with the competition. And Sexton better forget about making the Lions - if he falls apart thinking of a 34-year old on the bench, what is he going to be like competing for a place with Toby Flood or who ever else will be called up for it.

by **rodders** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:46 pm

Sin é wrote:
ROG was struggling with being hauled off for no reason. Kidney has had every reason to haul Sexton off or start ROG.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander Wink

by Mickado Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:49 pm

I’m surprised it’s taken this long to turn into the usual Sexton v ROG debate.

by red_stag Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:52 pm

Mickado wrote:I’m surprised it’s taken this long to turn into the usual Sexton v ROG debate.

+1

Heres a discussion: Is Mike Ross over rated?

by **rodders** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:56 pm

red_stag wrote:Heres a discussion: Is Mike Ross over rated?

Absolutely not...hes the best tight head prop in Ireland.... Whistle

Seriously though, He hasn't impressed since the RWC and Gethin Jenkins dominated last time out so it would be nice to have other options. Right now hes all we have so there's not much to debate.

by Mickado Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:00 pm

He can lock a scrum against good international props, so that would make him the messiah in Ireland.

He hasn’t done much else for Ireland, but he’s improving his workrate and handling for Leinster, so hopefully he can bring that to the 6 nations too.

Is he over rated? No, he’s rated as a good scrummager, and that’s what he is.

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:00 pm

roddersm wrote:Its common knowledge stag. He told EOS that being taken off was affecting his game and if he wasn't playing 80min of every match then he wouldn't play.

Humphreys denied this when he was asked about it but its was a major factor in his early retirement. I recall at the time he made the comment that he didn't feel he would be selected no matter how well he was playing.

I'll try and find a link.

So Humphreys denies it. Surely he wouldn't tell porkies, would he?

According to ROG's autobiography, he had a row with Eddie at training about being hauled off when he actually was playing well and some one else had made major boo-boo.

He (and Eddie) said it was wrong of him to bring it up at training and that he should have gone to him privately. But Eddie said in his book that he had no problem with ROG actually telling him that.

By the way, he just got a bit emotional (like he does) and actually said that he would be better off just playing for Munster. It should be noted here that O'Gara was on very small money and Humphreys had recently recently renewed his central contract and was paid a lot more than O'Gara was.

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:04 pm

roddersm wrote:
Sin é wrote:
ROG was struggling with being hauled off for no reason. Kidney has had every reason to haul Sexton off or start ROG.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander

So, not being able to hit a cows arse with a banjo isn't considered a good enough reason to haul someone off?

by Feckless Rogue Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:05 pm

I remember reading that fly. It was Cullen and Sexton who convinced him they didn't need any motivation or man management. They just wanted to learn anything he could teach them. They were already motivated and focused. They'd tasted HEC success and they wanted more.

by Don Alfonso Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:06 pm

Sin é wrote: It should be noted here that O'Gara was on very small money and Humphreys had recently recently renewed his central contract and was paid a lot more than O'Gara was.

Why?

by **rodders** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:09 pm

Sin é wrote: It should be noted here that O'Gara was on very small money and Humphreys had recently recently renewed his central contract and was paid a lot more than O'Gara was.

Why should that be noted?

by Mickado Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:09 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:
Sin é wrote: It should be noted here that O'Gara was on very small money and Humphreys had recently recently renewed his central contract and was paid a lot more than O'Gara was.

Why?

Positive discrimination.

by red_stag Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:10 pm

Should Devin Toner make the match squad?

Do the amount of Leinster players who leave every season not suggest that Leinster have a forgotten generation too.

by **rodders** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:15 pm

red_stag wrote:Should Devin Toner make the match squad?

Thats a tricky one. On form yes. I'd probably go with POC, Ryan and DOC against Wales but I'd like to see both Toner and Tuohy feature, maybe from the bench against Scotland and Italy respectively.

I think Ryan's form has dipped since the RWC, what do the Munster fans think?

by Red Right Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:15 pm

In RWC 2003 neither ROG or Humphries was a nailed on starter (Humph was marginally ahead) - ROG didn't become the undisputed first choice OH until 2004 (I actually think it was from the time he kicked a last minute DG against Wales in the Millenium but I might need to be corrected on that) from then on it was ROG all the way - by the Lions tour in 2005 Humphrey's had all but retired (from international) - the only reason he didn't was that the Irish management asked him to stay on for the summer tour as ROG was with the lions.

ROG was never competing with Staunton for the OH position. Staunton was one of the finest schools and under age players I have ever seen but he was never anywhere near first choice OH for Munster, although he did provide cover there he was mostly utilised at FB on the occassions he played on the "first" team.

Sexton will be on the next Lions tour barring injury - he needs find find a comfortable place in his own head with regard the Irish set up, he's only in his second season as an international OH but I feel he needs to settle down this year and get some consistency, the ROG - Humphries battle went on for 4 seasons and didn't really benefit either player in the last few years. Hopefully as the approach is far more professional now both players can deal with the set up in a way which will benefit Ireland.

Rodders - I heard that story about ROG complaining about being hauled off - IIRC it was something which was taken out of context, but I believe he was aked why he was so consistent for Munster and not so for Ireland - that was something he alluded to but then it got dragged way out of proportion, as often happens on a quiet news day.

by Mickado Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:15 pm

Surely the point of the article is that there’s a group of players, of the same age, who are still at Munster, despite not playing very much.

Producing players who aren’t good enough to stay isn’t really the same thing.

by Feckless Rogue Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:19 pm

Should Ruddock or Ryan leave Leinster to avoid a similar fate to Munster's lost generation?

by Don Alfonso Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:20 pm

Yes. The bus to Belfast leaves in ten minutes.

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:21 pm

red_stag wrote:Should Devin Toner make the match squad?

Not sure here,he's playing well but a player like Ryan on the bench who can also play backrow offers more.If Ryan starts then Toner is a decent bench option but if it's DoC and PoC with the choice between Ryan and Toner on the bench I'd pick the more versatile player.

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:23 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:
Sin é wrote: It should be noted here that O'Gara was on very small money and Humphreys had recently recently renewed his central contract and was paid a lot more than O'Gara was.

Why?

He was negotiating a new contract and the IRFU were playing hardball with him which apparently they didn't with Humphreys (remember the rumour of the Miami Dolphins).

Simpler to negotiate a contract with Munster who seemed to value him!

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:24 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Should Ruddock or Ryan leave Leinster to avoid a similar fate to Munster's lost generation?

Maybe they should,the only backrow we have over 30 is Jennings so it's not like there are going to be spots opening up any time soon.They need to either play so well that they can't be left out or move to a team where they can fulfil their potential.

by Mickado Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:29 pm

Ruddock should be looking to expand his game, would love to see him tried out in the second row. Could be a good enforcer type, a counterpoint to Toner.

That would leave 2 7’s (Jennings and Ryan), 2 8’s (Heaslip and Auva’a) and 2 6’s (O’Brien and McLaughlin). The way Schmidt likes to rotate that’s a good number of backrows, if any of them really perform well they’ll make it into the HC team.

by Thomond Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:29 pm

All I would say is the guys he mentions are never going to be world beaters. They are your guys who are there every week and will put in great effort but are never going to be outstanding. Would they get a contract anywhere else? I don't know. These guys are the Mike Prendergast's of a team. Reliable and solid but probably not able for the elite level.

by **Notch** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:30 pm

I think Ruddock should move to Ulster. He'd have a real opportunity here.

by Red Right Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:31 pm

red_stag wrote:Should Devin Toner make the match squad?

Do the amount of Leinster players who leave every season not suggest that Leinster have a forgotten generation too.

I think the 6N this year is a little early - I'd lik to see how he does in the latter stages of the HC as he hasn't really had to deal with any of the big guns in europe to date.

I'd like to see Touhy get a run as he's looked good anytime I've seen him (granted, I have not seen a lot of him)- that being the case I'd have Donnacha R on the bench, he's playing well and offers great versatility from the bench.

If I was to go waaaayyy out there (I had this in my head before David Wallace got injured), I'd love to have seen Ferris at 4 with O'Brien moving to 6 and Wally at 7 - won't happen now but if POM keeps developing its something I'd like to look at again (I know you may have an issue with too many ball carriers and not enough work horses) - some of the Ulster supporters might help me out - I know Ferris played second row on occassion, was it long ago and how did it work out?

by **rodders** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:31 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Yes. The bus to Belfast leaves in ten minutes.

Send Ruddock up here, he might learn something of the best in business.

Sin you talk some horlicks sir!

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:33 pm

Ferris should never play second row. He is the best flanker Ireland have.

by Thomond Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:34 pm

Sin that Dolphins rumour was horse excrement and you know it. I was only a wee fella at the time and knew it was never going to happen!

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:36 pm

Mickado wrote:Surely the point of the article is that there’s a group of players, of the same age, who are still at Munster, despite not playing very much.

Producing players who aren’t good enough to stay isn’t really the same thing.

It still might be better than relying on the coaching staff to cover injuries.

Perhaps if he noted when the 4 players involved signed their contract last would be helpful.
Borlase (first contract - up at the end of this year).
Duncan Williams?
Fogs?
Hurley?
Billy Holland
Coughlan (I don't see what the issue is with him not being able to establishing a spot against 2 Heineken Cup winning backrows). So Coughlan's sin is not leaving Munster to become a rugby player somewhere else. Establishing a career in Cork rather than being a professional rugby player may have been more attractive to him. If anything, Munster should be lauded for brining him into Munster as a late developer. Far better than any Nick Williams.

I hope his next blog is on how many games fringe players get play when they move away from Munster. And maybe ask Trevor Hogan would he have preferred to warm the bench for Munster or Leinster - what it worth the move to Dublin away from his family?

by Red Right Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:38 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Should Ruddock or Ryan leave Leinster to avoid a similar fate to Munster's lost generation?

I think Schmidt has a very good understanding of how squad rotation should work - Ruddock seems to be getting enough game time at the moment and I'll be interested to see what he winds up with at the end of the year. The guy at Leinster who I'd like to see get game time is Conway - when Carr going to Leinster I though the smart thing to do might have been to send Conway in the other direction for a season or 2. There is a lot of quality players competing for places in the leinster backline.

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:41 pm

Thomond wrote:Sin that Dolphins rumour was horse excrement and you know it. I was only a wee fella at the time and knew it was never going to happen!

I know what it was. But Eddie O'Sullivan fell for it because he asked him about it (and ate the head off him for it).

(For those who don't know what happened - ROG met the owner of the Miami Dolphins in the Old Head of Kinsale). People put two-and-two together and ROG took his time about denying it.

There were no rumours about the Stade offer - that was genuine. He met the owner in Paris.

by **rodders** Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:46 pm

Red Right wrote:Ulster supporters might help me out - I know Ferris played second row on occassion, was it long ago and how did it work out?

Ferris said before the RWC he won't be moving to 2nd row, apparantly he hates it there.

If you'd watched Ferris since the RWC then you wouldn't be moving him anywhere... He's in outrageous form. Never seen anything like it.

I'd say with Ferris knees you'll see that backrow soon enough so enjoy Ferris while he lasts.

by Red Right Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:47 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Ferris should never play second row. He is the best flanker Ireland have.

I know - was an opinion I had made before the WC when I didn't know what Ferris form would be like. I agree that he is our best flanker and should really be left there for the forseeable future.

by Sin é Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:49 pm

roddersm wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Yes. The bus to Belfast leaves in ten minutes.

Send Ruddock up here, he might learn something of the best in business.

Sin you talk some horlicks sir!

I think you've got your horlicks mixed up rodders.

Claiming something as fact even though the person involved denies it is horlicks.

Repeating something from a book that is in the public domain (and has been supported by those involved) is not horlicks.

by geoff998rugby Fri 06 Jan 2012, 3:54 pm

Ferris wont be moving to the 2nd row for his Provinces for the forseeable future and some.

To be honest Paulie is only our nailed on International second row at the moment.

Ruddcok was offered a place at Ulster last year - he turned it down.

by ME-109 Sat 07 Jan 2012, 12:35 am

The Mole has some valid points but his attack on the named players is a poor arguement. The main problem is that from 2000 - 2009/10 there was an excellent group of players blocking players coming through. However from the 08 final team there should have been faster change. Kidney and then McGahan retained loyalty in that group. We reached the semi in 09 and came up short. In 2010 it was like give us another chance boss which McGahan did when we should have been blooding new players in the HC team. Players like O'Mahoney and some others should have been given more game time in these years. Even at 19 POM looked the part. There is a reticence to give younger players a go even if they look good enough.

For the players mentioned...

Billy Holland is an excellent squad player covering second and back row.
Darragh Hurley is an excellent prop and looked the real deal at a young age. He has suffered from terrible injury issues and it is true that maybe he should be put out to pasture at this stage if he cant keep fit after this latest injury.
Williams is another player who looked like he would progress and another who has had bad injuries. Can be very good or very bad....another that could be looked at with regards to the future.
Gleeson is a good player..looked very good for the 30 mins he played....not sure about getting rid of....

Overall the players deserve a chance. they are good rugby players. I agree that Munster need to bring through youngsters at an earlier stage and give them a decent run in the team, instead of a lot of stop start which was the case.

I wouldnt disagree with us being more ruthless in our approach with some of the players.

by SecretFly Sun 08 Jan 2012, 2:35 pm

I agree with you DOD. Good sides have a burden sometimes and that is if not properly managed, they miss a generation of new blood. The urge is to stick with the proven rather than risk trying out the future

... now frame this Wink

by dublin_dave Sun 08 Jan 2012, 4:08 pm

this article is long winded and very boring. in a few cases he may have a point but not many. who in their right mind writes 3 paragraphs on peter borlasse. lot of time on his hands. if munsters 2nd string want to stay and live their lives in cork and limerick let them off its a squad game and a long season. munster are now certainly not shy to give the cream of their youth set up gametime

coughlan is a late bloomer, you get them in all sports. cant see the issue

maybe rog should have signed for the miami dolphins. could make a tidy wedge doing the below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Jsz-fSNd4

by Sponsored content