Farrell & Twelvetrees

It seems a few people have been picking one of these two (some both) in their EPS selections for backup centre/FH roles. Farrell has been the most consistently talked about and Twelvetrees received a bit of a boost on the back of yesterday's performance. So I thought it would be interesting to see how their premiership stats help inform the discussion.


Farrell - Twelvetrees

12 Matches 11
2 Tries 4
121 Points 87
5 Try assist 2
31 Carries 78
73 Metres carried 235
2 Clean breaks 4
1 Offloads 3
3 Defenders beaten 11
75 Tackles 64
15 Missed tackles 7
8 Penalties conceded 2
9 Turnovers conceded 6



Personally, I'm not sure I'd have either in the EPS at present, but of the two, as a centre option I'd prefer Twelvetrees and as a FH option I'd prefer Farrell.

Both look very good players. Twelve trees was superb yesterday.

With flood and tuilagi missing through injury maybe this is a great opportunity to try a backline with these guys in it...?

You also have the Gloucester lad May as well england could have a very exuberant backline.

I think both of their long term positions are at 12. I like Twelvetrees more, he has flair and pace along with the core skills you need for 12 and i think he has more potential than Farrell. If Twelvetrees or Allen hadn't got injured i doubt Farrell's name would be bouncing around so much now.

36 has more flair and potential so obviously England will pick Farrall

niwatts where did you get your stats from our of interest? could you provide a link?

rosbif wrote:36 has more flair and potential so obviously England will pick Farrall

I think the same. Farrell, Barritt, Strettle and the like will get in over the skillful young guns, as they are "safer" bets.

The stats are from the Telegraph, which are supplied by OPTA. As Saracens have played a game since my original post, they'll obviously be slightly different now.

Farrell missed a fair few kicks apparently, and isnt Billy Twelvetrees. Theres a reasonable chance both will make the squad even with Flood likely to be fit for Scotland.

I get the impression that 36 has undoubted ability...and a physial presence aswell...and lately has shown signs that he's using that ability now...

I hope he can really fullfil that promise....

I think naming the squad before the HEC games at the weekend is a mistake. Personally I'd want to see both Twelvetrees and Farrell in another high pressure HEC game just help make up my mind. They are both talented and offer different advantages and different weaknesses so it will depend heavilly on how Lancaster et al decide they want to play. A more open and expansive game would suit Billy more where as Farrell would be more at home in a more tactical game.

Immaterial of which is favoured they'll only make the bench as Barritt will be first choice 12.

No man is greater than 36.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think naming the squad before the HEC games at the weekend is a mistake. Personally I'd want to see both Twelvetrees and Farrell in another high pressure HEC game just help make up my mind. They are both talented and offer different advantages and different weaknesses so it will depend heavilly on how Lancaster et al decide they want to play. A more open and expansive game would suit Billy more where as Farrell would be more at home in a more tactical game.

Immaterial of which is favoured they'll only make the bench as Barritt will be first choice 12.

Well Lancaster could play a Sarries 10,12,13 & play Farrell at 13 as you say it depends how they want to play but Farrell could fit in with Barritt.

Hi niwatts - could you provide a link to the Telegraph Opta website as I find those sites really interesting (and useful in arguments)!

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think naming the squad before the HEC games at the weekend is a mistake. Personally I'd want to see both Twelvetrees and Farrell in another high pressure HEC game just help make up my mind. They are both talented and offer different advantages and different weaknesses so it will depend heavilly on how Lancaster et al decide they want to play. A more open and expansive game would suit Billy more where as Farrell would be more at home in a more tactical game.

Immaterial of which is favoured they'll only make the bench as Barritt will be first choice 12.

Don't have a choice do they? They need to announce the EPS then. The squad has been different in the past because of injuries to EPS members (I remember a couple of years back S Barnes was up in arms because Cole wasn't in the EPS even though there was a tighthead injured and it was bloody obvious what would/and did happen)

Killer_B_6 wrote:Hi niwatts - could you provide a link to the Telegraph Opta website as I find those sites really interesting (and useful in arguments)!

Hi Killer_B_6

I had actually put it as an embedded link on the word Telegraph in my second post, but here it is in conventional form. I find the 'player vs player' option the most useful.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/fixtures/3538935/Rugby-Union-Statistics.html


Mods, regarding hyperlinks, I know it's possible to make them stand out more by changing their colour or underlining (something I do on occasion), but is it not possible for you guys to set this as standard? The slightly darker shade it is now is a bit too subtle, a darker shade again, bold, italics or underlining would be an improvement.

Don't have a choice do they? They need to announce the EPS then.

The clubs have a fair idea of who may be missing and if anything it stops their players being distracted ahead of some key HEC games. They aren't going to be whisked away before the second HEC game either so I don't see how it will make a great deal of difference putting the annoucement back a few days. The only difference will be they'll get a closer look at some of the young prospects (including Morgan).

I'd go with Twelvetrees over Farrel any time, both have their faults but i'd say Billy's ability now outweighs the negatives. As we saw on the weekend he has it all and the more he plays the better.

9. Youngs
10. Flood/Hodgson
12. Twelvetrees
13. Barritt

Anyone else think that 'Farrell & Twelvetrees' sounds like a folk act or maybe expensive paint?

Carpe Diem wrote:Anyone else think that 'Farrell & Twelvetrees' sounds like a folk act or maybe expensive paint?

I think they make golfwear as worn by Ronnie Corbett.

Blaze and Twelvetrees sounded like the Gladiators
Youngs and Young sounds like a dance music combo
Phil Vickery sounds like a village idiot when he speaks.

9. Youngs
10. Flood/Hodgson
12. Twelvetrees
13. Barritt.

I'd go with 12.Barritt and 13.Twelvetrees if they were to be paired in the centres as Billy is quicker and would cover the outside break better than Barritt who is more suited in the 12 channel. Barritt has a decent passing game and so they could interchange in attack all day but in defence I'd definitely got 12.Barritt and 13.Twelvetrees.

Is Twelvetrees ahead of say Trinder or Lowe (if he was fit)....he must be behind Tuilagi...?

At best Twelvetrees will be on the bench come the 6N. More likely called up to the squad and released back to Tigers. I think Barritt/Manu is the preferred centre partnership but the coaches are probably more likely to go with Barritt/Trinder for the first game.

Don't think Lowe comes into the picture at all at the moment Geordie. He's been injured a long time and I've heard no news of an imminent come back. Not sure he has potential to be anything more than a good player either, though that might be a touch harsh so early in his career.

formerly known as Sam wrote:At best Twelvetrees will be on the bench come the 6N. More likely called up to the squad and released back to Tigers. I think Barritt/Manu is the preferred centre partnership but the coaches are probably more likely to go with Barritt/Trinder for the first game.

I'm not sure that Barritt/Tuilagi is Lancaster's preferred combo - keep reading that he wants a second ball player at 12 and that his first choices would have been Flood, Farrell at 12 and Tuilagi at 13 if everyone was fit. I know he picked him for the Saxons at 12 and Barritt played 10 in his early career but is he enough of a ball player now for Lancaster (we don't really get to see at Saracens). It would be a mistake in my opinion not to select Barritt at 12 for the 6N and a Flood, Barritt and Tuilagi looked a very good 10/12/13 combination to me.

I actually think if Flood and Tuilagi are injured for the Scotland game as seems likely then he will pick the Saracens combo of Hodgson, Barritt and Farrell, maybe even with Barritt playing more at outside center.

actually think if Flood and Tuilagi are injured for the Scotland game as seems likely then he will pick the Saracens combo of Hodgson, Barritt and Farrell, maybe even with Barritt playing more at outside center..

I hope England find a brilliant pack from somewhere then because otherwise Scotland only need a little bit of quick ball and a fast OC and they'll be away on the outside. Neither Farrell nor Barritt have the pace for an OC at international level.

I don't see what's wrong with the Flood, Billy, Barritt backline.

All have good hands, all can kick and both centres are physical. Twelvetrees backs up Flood well and Barritt locks the defence.

Make sure Ashton, Foden and Sharple/Monye join the line frequently through the centres and off the 10's shoulder and I think that would be sweet.

Once Manu is back either switch Barriitt in to 12 or keep Twelvetrees there.

From the stats and opinions I'd prefer 36. But, if Hodgeson is playing 10, I'd rather have Farrell taking the kicks. So team against Scotland might be Hodgeson, Farrell, Barritt, but first choice might be Flood, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi.

Barritt doesn't have the pace to play 13 at club or international level. Farrell is quicker, Twelvetrees about the same, but they aren't as quick as Trinder, let alone JJ. And when I see Twelvetrees play a see a good defender. I certainly think Billy's defence is better than Brad's play-making or kicking.

For me Barritt is the conservative choice. I can see why Lancaster might go with it given the injuries and changes, but if you want to play attacking rugby Twelvetrees is the way to go (or possibly Farrell - not that we've seen that much of it but I reckon he might surprise at 12 with his play-making if given the freedom by his coaches)

Pick them both? Flood and Hodgson as 10s, Barritt as a 12 and Farrell and Twelvetrees as utility backs. Someone like Turner-Hall could then be in the Saxons and called up to cover while Flood's injured at the start of the tournament and put a bit more pressure on Barritt for his spot as the specialist 12 while there is ample cover at 10.

Anyone think by the next 6n we could be looking at
10 Farrell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi

Yes, but Flood might be spurred on to improve.

What is Twelvetrees like as a kicker? Would you be happy for him to take a 40m penalty on 79 minutes when 2 points behind Scotland?

What is Twelvetrees like as a kicker? Would you be happy for him to take a 40m penalty on 79 minutes when 2 points behind Scotland?

Twelvetrees has a simply massive range and if he's having a good day the ball will go over from literally everywhere. If he's having a bad day then he'll miss directly from in front of the posts.

Anyone think by the next 6n we could be looking at
10 Farrell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi.

No. Simply because I don't think Farrell is that good a 10. I can see one of Barritt/Farrell/Twelvetrees securing the 12 shirt long term but I can't see any of them playing 10 for England without some serious improvement.

I think Farrell has promise as an international and will be around the EPS for years to come, but I don't see him becoming a first choice player. In the next couple of years I hope we gravitate towards

Flood/Burns/Ford
Twelvetrees/Barritt
Tuilagi/Joseph

Guys lets not forget the Donut

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/157185.html

I'm not saying that I am definitely going to be picked but from my point of view I've never been fitter or trained harder and I've never wanted it (international rugby) more

well , teams out. It looks like Hodgeson will be fly half, so Farrell needs to be in to take the kicks.

Based on above I'd have preferred Twelvetrees, with Hodgeson taking the near kicks and Twelvetrees anything behind the 10m line.

Hodgeson + Barritt? Who would kick the penalities?

Hodgeson + Barritt? Who would kick the penalities?.

Hodgson, as he has done for all of his career before joining Sarries.

I appreciate he is the premierships leading points scorer but I have painful memories of England losing matches mid decade by a few points thanks to his kicking.

Hodgeson has always been a great attacking flyhalf. I've heard he's improved his defence. But I don't want to see him to kick at goal with England 19-20 down and 1 minute to go at Murrayfield.

Also, based on what you say about Twelvetrees, it would be nice to have someone who can kick goals from inside our own half.

Alex_Germany wrote:well , teams out. It looks like Hodgeson will be fly half, so Farrell needs to be in to take the kicks.

Farrell missed 4 kicks out of 10 at the weekend.

Expecting a 20 year old to take on the kicking duties for his England debut at Murrayfield in England's opening game of the 6N at the beginning of a vital new era for the team and as part of the least experienced side for 50 years would be far too much pressure to heap on the young lad.

Hodgson's kicking record far exceeds Farrell's and pretty much anyone else that has played premiership rugby, he must be handed the role.

Seeing that Farrell kicks ahead of Hodgson for Saracens i can't see why they would reverse it for England.

Also, based on what you say about Twelvetrees, it would be nice to have someone who can kick goals from inside our own half. .

Not particularly reliably though. If England wanted a guarenteed high quality kicker then they should have made space for Tom Homer on the wing. That boy kicks like Johnny circa 2002.

Seeing that Farrell kicks ahead of Hodgson for Saracens i can't see why they would reverse it for England

The arguement is that Farrell would only be included in the team to kick, if Hodgson is deemed a decent enough kicker Farrell will only make the bench.