Will Farrell pick Farrell?

Good articles in the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8945374/England-assistant-coach-Andy-Farrell-says-son-Owen-on-fringes-of-national-call-up-but-must-earn-place.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/8949532/Owen-Farrell-impresses-for-Saracens-in-hope-of-winning-fathers-Andys-nod-for-England.html

The question I have is Is Owen Farrell good enough to get into the EPS? It must be pretty difficult for both of them with fears of nepotism being alleged. Just imagine if he gets into the England XV and has a stinker, the papers would have a field day.

I for one think that he is good enough and if he is good enough, he should be picked in he squad.

It will be interesting to see what happens. What do you think?

I keep changing my mind on this. I seen him play many times. Now my current feeling is that he is not yet ready. Which position would you pick him? He simply isn't experienced enough to run a backline in attack. He really needs to learn from C.Hodgson. A playmaker like C.Hodgson makes such a huge difference to an attack.

Owen Farrell could potentially be an inside centre. This is the position I would like him to be developed at.

He still suffers from inexperience this was evident against Ospreys. Firstly missing about 3 kicks. 2ndly he was guilty of a foolish sin bin. 3rdly he had a kick charged down which gave Ospreys 3 easy points.

I'd say he doesn't deserve anything more than a Saxons call up at present. He isn't in the top 2 English inside centres and he isn't in the top 3 English fly halfs. So where are you supposed to fit him in the EPS?

Now Hodgson I'd have in the EPS on current form and Barritt as well but until Farrell can dislodge one or the other at his club then he isn't ready for the step up to full international level. He's only a young lad anyway, last season he played in the JWC and this season a step up to the Saxons will be good progress.

Surely that would be a call made by Stuart Lancaster, for obvious reasons.

Yeah firstly its not Farrells choice at the end of the day, the main thing for me standing against him is that hes yet to get settled position at his club.

One bad performance shouldnt count against any more than one good one would count for him. We know the lad has a good all round game and bags of potential.
He wont start 10 for England in the 6 nations unless theres an injury crisis, the question is would he gain more form training with the squad and possibly being bench cover for the centers than being left with his club.

He won't pick him.

Given he's only around for a short while and the team will be highly transient, he'll recognise that the selection has the potential to be too damaging to both their future careers. Far better to trust in his talent and let the permanent coaches make that decision come the summer.

Also, Barritt will certainly be selected, so doubt he'll take both his club's first choice centres, particularly if they also select Hodgson.

Also, Barritt will certainly be selected, so doubt he'll take both his club's first choice centres, particularly if they also select Hodgson..

They'd get a taste of what it's like to be Tigers then. England never seem to mind nicking half our team.

Will Ferrell picked for England?....anther comedian eh, should do well but will have to compete with Haskell and Ashton for chief clown

hawalsh wrote:He won't pick him.

Given he's only around for a short while and the team will be highly transient, he'll recognise that the selection has the potential to be too damaging to both their future careers. Far better to trust in his talent and let the permanent coaches make that decision come the summer.

Also, Barritt will certainly be selected, so doubt he'll take both his club's first choice centres, particularly if they also select Hodgson.

But what if Farrell Jr proves himself as the most worthy. Surely it will be more damaging if he is not picked.

I think he should be in the EPS, but i dont think he should be starting but could make the bench as cover for 10/12.

And besides i think we will see adifferent EPS than the one we are used too now that Lancaster is in charge. A younger squad with a few old heads to guide the young ones along.

I hope England pick Barritt but leave behind Hodgson and Farrell.I would like to see Farrell develop at inside centre outside Hodgson.That would be best from an England perspective.

Hodgson has always been an excellent club player but never quite seems to cut it at international level. He probably plays better when solely the playmaker and someone takes the kicking duties. England doesn't have a player which could do that do they?

Farrell know Farrell not ready for England.

beshocked wrote:I hope England pick Barritt but leave behind Hodgson and Farrell.I would like to see Farrell develop at inside centre outside Hodgson.That would be best from an England perspective.

Hodgson has always been an excellent club player but never quite seems to cut it at international level. He probably plays better when solely the playmaker and someone takes the kicking duties. England doesn't have a player which could do that do they?

I agree with all of your points mate. Think Barritt is hugely under rated and in a position where no one else stands out. Don't see the logic in moving Manu there, he has shown promise at 13, so keep him there. Frustrates me when we move players around so much. Also, really not convinced by this suggestion that Farrell is a 13, what are your thoughts? Personally I don't like having a playmaker/kicker type at 13, it just doesn't sit well with me. Hated it when Hook played outside Roberts/Davies and likewise Barkley outside Hape. Don't think either of those 2 experiments worked out.

I don't think they were experiments per say but rather just fitting in someone outside the form player.

Bathite I wouldn't call Barritt underrated anymore! Lots of people seem to want him to start for England. With Andy Farrell in the England management now you would expect Barritt to be in the mix definitely.

I know people are worried about him as a backs coach. I hope that if any of you watched Saracens against Ospreys might be heartened to know that they can play attacking rugby. As a Saracens fan I of course already knew this but feel they should do this more often. When they play like they did in the first 50 minutes they are a very strong side.

Nice to see Goode showing what he can do when the shackles are released and he is given free rein.

Farrell Sr was part of a coaching set up which won the AP so he must be doing something right!

Agree Bathite that he's not really a 13. I want Farrell to not be constantly shuffled around. I want him to develop as a 12.

Don't see the logic in moving Manu there, he has shown promise at 13, so keep him there

Manu did not play well at 12 at the weekend. Yet in the last 10 minutes when he moved to 13 and had the wider running line and more time on the ball he came to life. Definitley keep him at 13.

I think he should be in the EPS, but i dont think he should be starting but could make the bench as cover for 10/12.

I think it's the wrong time to have an inexperienced 20 year old on the bench, especially one who isn't getting consistent time at 10 to work on some weaknesses. What happens if Flood gets injured inside the first 10 or 20 minutes? England have to play an hour or more with a 20 year old who has never played with the 21 year old scrum half and has a midfield with an internationally inexperienced IC he does know and an OC he's only ever played against and who has less than 10 caps. That would be a massive and unfair ask on a young player. Until the backline has been bedded in I think bringing in Farrell or Burns or Clegg as back up 10 is to much of an ask. Hodgson is there so utilise that experience from the bench and build that midfield up. Once the midfield has some caps and the backline is a little more settled then bring in the young 10s.

Farrell Sr was part of a coaching set up which won the AP so he must be doing something right!

That owed more to defence than attack. Particuarly the phenominal kick chase which was Sarries plan A and plan B.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I think it's the wrong time to have an inexperienced 20 year old on the bench, especially one who isn't getting consistent time at 10 to work on some weaknesses. What happens if Flood gets injured inside the first 10 or 20 minutes? England have to play an hour or more with a 20 year old who has never played with the 21 year old scrum half and has a midfield with an internationally inexperienced IC he does know and an OC he's only ever played against and who has less than 10 caps. That would be a massive and unfair ask on a young player. Until the backline has been bedded in I think bringing in Farrell or Burns or Clegg as back up 10 is to much of an ask. Hodgson is there so utilise that experience from the bench and build that midfield up. Once the midfield has some caps and the backline is a little more settled then bring in the young 10s.

Well it worked for Wales with Priestland, so who else apart from Hodgson do we have with any experiance?

Well it worked for Wales with Priestland

24 year old Rys Priestland? According to Wiki he has 72 appearences for the Scarlets under his belt and actually played full back in his international debut to ease him in. Not the same at all. He's older, more experienced and was eased into a fairly settled team with an experienced midfield and backrow.

Burns is playing regularly at 10 though is as young as Farrell but with different weaknesses. His all round skills are of a higher level than Farrell though.
Clegg is struggling for game time at Quins but has acquitted himself well and played very well for the Saxons in the Churchill Cup.
Lamb is doing a decent job with the Saints and if he could show a little more kicking consistentcy could do ok from the bench.

England are struggling for experienced 10s. Then again they are struggling to put together a midfield and need to sort out the backrow.

Farrell is developing nicely but there is better players available to play both 10 and 12. I still don't think he has much of a running game which would make him very one dimensional against good defences.

At best I'd stick him on the bench but maybe the Saxons is a better place for him, possiblt at 10 with 36 outside him.

England have previously introduced promising young FHs at 12, and I expect that is what will happen with Farell. I wouldn't expect him to start but I'd be surprised if he wasn't in the EPS.

Clegg would be crazy to stay at Quins after this season. He needs to go somewhere, maybe Sale or even LI, where he'd be first choice as he has a real chance of international honours if he can get regular game time. Enough of understudying Evans, he needs to make his own mistakes now.

I think England have numerous options in midfield now, and in the backrow. The coaches just need to identify the best combination of talent and attitude and stick with them.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Well it worked for Wales with Priestland

24 year old Rys Priestland? According to Wiki he has 72 appearences for the Scarlets under his belt and actually played full back in his international debut to ease him in. Not the same at all. He's older, more experienced and was eased into a fairly settled team with an experienced midfield and backrow.

Burns is playing regularly at 10 though is as young as Farrell but with different weaknesses. His all round skills are of a higher level than Farrell though.
Clegg is struggling for game time at Quins but has acquitted himself well and played very well for the Saxons in the Churchill Cup.
Lamb is doing a decent job with the Saints and if he could show a little more kicking consistentcy could do ok from the bench.

England are struggling for experienced 10s. Then again they are struggling to put together a midfield and need to sort out the backrow.

Farrell has 41 caps for sarries played all of last season at F/H inc the final, this year he has shifted between centre and F/H as required ansd is 20
Burns has been playing F/H or F/B at Glos(dont know how many caps he's picked up) and is 21
Lamb has over 112 caps so far but only 8 or 9 this season, scored over 800 points and is 25 (but has a bit of a record off field)

The thing is Farrell plays for sarries who for one reason or another everyone has decided that they dont like so will always be behing the other more glamorous clubs that may not win but like to throw it about ( hence no one has put Alex Goode in for the EPS as fullback despite being one of the most inform fullbacks over the last 3 years besauce he isnt a running full back like Brown/Foden but is less likely to make the defensive errors they do)

To me it has to be Flood as 1st choice, Lamb and 2nd and Farrel as back-up F/H and 2nd choice center

Way too early i feel. If Farrell can establish himeself in 1 position then he will be ready. Bringing him into the fold now as a utility back will only result in England having their own James Hook.

He has bags of talent but its way too early for him.

Knackeredknees wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Well it worked for Wales with Priestland

24 year old Rys Priestland? According to Wiki he has 72 appearences for the Scarlets under his belt and actually played full back in his international debut to ease him in. Not the same at all. He's older, more experienced and was eased into a fairly settled team with an experienced midfield and backrow.

Burns is playing regularly at 10 though is as young as Farrell but with different weaknesses. His all round skills are of a higher level than Farrell though.
Clegg is struggling for game time at Quins but has acquitted himself well and played very well for the Saxons in the Churchill Cup.
Lamb is doing a decent job with the Saints and if he could show a little more kicking consistentcy could do ok from the bench.

England are struggling for experienced 10s. Then again they are struggling to put together a midfield and need to sort out the backrow.

Farrell has 41 caps for sarries played all of last season at F/H inc the final, this year he has shifted between centre and F/H as required ansd is 20
Burns has been playing F/H or F/B at Glos(dont know how many caps he's picked up) and is 21
Lamb has over 112 caps so far but only 8 or 9 this season, scored over 800 points and is 25 (but has a bit of a record off field)

The thing is Farrell plays for sarries who for one reason or another everyone has decided that they dont like so will always be behing the other more glamorous clubs that may not win but like to throw it about ( hence no one has put Alex Goode in for the EPS as fullback despite being one of the most inform fullbacks over the last 3 years besauce he isnt a running full back like Brown/Foden but is less likely to make the defensive errors they do)

To me it has to be Flood as 1st choice, Lamb and 2nd and Farrel as back-up F/H and 2nd choice center

Its the internet that hates Saracens, I dont buy it that coaches have a bias against them ( no matter what beshocked thinks of some of Johnsons selection)

I dont see Lamb as an interntaional. He shone when he was young and had some good moments but ill always remeber him as a revolving door. He'd be even more expossed at international level where pretty much everyone is the size of Tuillagi. I suspect Hodgson will stay in the squad as Floods backup, which leaves a choice between Burns and Farrel to "get some expereince with the squad". Farrels still some way off being a match option for England I wouldve thought.

Goode I felt was unlucky to miss out on the world cup squad, but Armitage proved his selection was correct. With Foden a given, and Brown being the current darling fullback Goodes slipped down the pecking order. Id have him as the fourth choice fullback currently.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler Martin Johnson and his management have proven themselves to be inept and hopeless. Was it bias against Saracens? On reflection probably not. Martin Johnson did make selection howlers though and did leave out at least one Saracens player when he shouldn't have. Not just Saracens players though because others like Allen and Robshaw should have been considered too.


I personally feel it's double standards when people tout Twelvetrees for England but not Farrell. Why is one accused of lack of experience when the other is praised from the rooftops despite not actually showing any consistency?

hence no one has put Alex Goode in for the EPS as fullback

Think they were last season. This season he has been short of his sparkling best. Where as Brown has found another gear and Foden is playing very well.

The thing is Farrell plays for sarries who for one reason or another everyone has decided that they dont like

Yet pretty much everyone is keen to have Hodgson in the squad. It's not a bias against Sarries it's just that at 20 Farrell has some weaknesses that will be magnified on the international stage. In a year or two with Hodgson as his mentor those weaknesses will be strengths and he can prove his worth in the national team. At the minute he's being set up to be another Matt Tait, overhyped to early and asked too much of at a young age.

personally feel it's double standards when people tout Twelvetrees for England but not Farrell.

Twelvetrees is older with a more rounded game. Some of his hype is way over the top though I'd be tempted to have him in the EPS as backup to Barritt purely because he'd meet the requirements for England in the short term (i.e. he has a massive kick from hand, good flat passing skills, good tackler and can crash ball). Don't think he's a long term option unless he starts to shine regularly.

I don't understand the reasoning behind molly-coddling our youngsters. The Aussies don't and they have a cracking side - look at Bieber O'Connor -he's got loads of caps and he's only 12!

I say if they're good enough, they should be in the squad. It certainly hasn't done George North any harm in the Wales team - he may be morte of an exception but yu get my point. By the time some players have "enough experience" they've usually picked up an injury or lost form.

The difference in those cases is that selections were forced when there were no better players available.

Is Farrell the best 13, 12 or 10 available ? No.
Why was Tuilagi selected in his first full pro seaosn? Because he was the best player available in his position.

If England want a kicking 13 then yes OK look at Farrell, otherwise squad but not team. Bench at a push.

Fair points Mr Bounce....is Farrell good enough though? I don't think he is.

When an outstanding youngster comes through the ranks (Youngs, Cole, Lawes) he has been given a go albeit a little later than he should have.

O'Connor and North have been introduced as wingers. Farrell will be at 10/12 which is considerabley more in the firing line. He might well pull off 12 if we had an experienced OC to guide him but we have Manu and having a 20 year old centre pairing isn't always a great idea when playing in the 6N, where midfield defence is regularly tested and neither of those two lead the line for their clubs. At 10 he's likely to be well out of his depth as he has struggled to play a passing style there for his club, at international level he will have even less time to execute the moves.

Sam Twelvetrees is older but has played less AP games than Farrell. Has less big match experience, is less consistent, struggles to get into his team etc.

Just because someone is older does not make them more experienced or even better.

Twelvetrees is overrated. Seriously what has he actually done? Can barely string 5 games together. Either injured or kept out by Allen.

Farrell is rated highly because he plays for the English champions. Kicked 6/6 in the AP final in a high pressure position like fly half. He was won plenty of games for Sarries with the boot.

A player should need to play consistently well and actually play in a few games to be picked. Is Twelvetrees such an incredible talent that he can stroll into the England side with so little experience and gametime?

Of course not!

I must admit I prefer Twelvetrees to Farrell although neither are ready for Int rugby

Why sgt pooly? Twelvetrees is loved by many. Why I simply don't know.

The 36 hype is down to that game against Ospreys. He was an utter unheard of at that point and suprissed everyone. because hes so big he looks the part of a potential great, but as Sam said he hasnt yet lived up to that.
Whats he does have is an all round game. Theres really no weakness, except he cant kick goalds from angles and hes just not quite good enough at everything yet.
As for being kept out the side...thast as much to do with the players Tigers have ahead of him than anything else.

Lets put it this way, if Same vesty could play for England its not unreasonable that Twelvetrees could at some point.

Hes nowhere near there as an option at 10 yet, but has potential as a 12/13 like Farrell does. Hes kept out of the side by Flood Allen and Tuillagi, in the same way Farrells kept out of his primary positions by Barrit and Hodgson.

He did well with the Saxons but yes I agree he still has plenty to prove before he gets to be and England player. Farrells probably ahead, but he seems to have his own hype machine going at the moment

except he cant kick goalds from angles

I don't think it's even that. I've seen him kick them from the touchline then miss them from right in front. On form (Wasps away) he is sensational but he just seems to lack that concentration. The game vs the Ospreys he was on a one man mission. He basically ran the backs by himself with a flanker and an injured FH as centres an incredible debut. He holds the record for the most points scored by a single player in a game for Tigers (Wasps away) and has been playing well this season at 12 and 13. He really must start this weekend as the impact he had when he came on last weekend was very positive.

Miles behind Barritt in the pecking order with the other likely contenders of Allen and JTH injured his promotion as back up would be a useful one. Purely because, as said above, he has no major weaknesses just lots of fine tuning so in an emergency England could throw him in at 12 (he wouldn't be a bench option) and know he could adapt to whatever they needed. The same might not be said of Farrell as he does struggle to play a more expansive game especially when asked to play flat, which is not in keeping with how Flood likes to play.

I don't love him Beshocked, just think he has a better all round game than Farrell. I think Farrell is massivley over hyped and has a very limited skillet. What he has though is composure and if he does develop he could be a very good 10.

Farrell limited skill set? From an Ospreys fan point of view and someone who watches the aviva prem regularly i wouldn't say so. Hes got a very kick and is a good distributer. Add to that his size and defence you've got a good player.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

except he cant kick goalds from angles

I don't think it's even that. I've seen him kick them from the touchline then miss them from right in front.

You watch more than me so Ill take your word on that but what Id always thought of him was he has a direct straight hoofing style of kick.
Hes very powerful and boots the ball in a staright line which is what enable him to nail kicks form 50 yards out. But whats he doenst do is curl them in and make the target bigger from the touchlines like the strokers do...that means from the touchlines he probably better off being a long way back than close in. Whereas Wilko in theory could curl on in from the corner flag the best 36 could do is boot it straight into the post.
The one I really remeber is last seasons away fixture to Saracens where they won a penalty right at the death from a lineout round the 22, which he missed by a distance but had kicked hard enough to nearly clear the stadium. Earlier in the game he managed to slot staright kicks from considerbale disatnce.

Whatever the reason anyway it was firmly established that he did a decent job in his stint as Tioger FH but he needs to work on his kicking if hes going to play there fulltime.

Of course if both he and Farrell were in a future England side only one would have to do the goal kicking.

I don't think Twelvetrees will ever be a front line goal kicker, though he may be rolled out in a similar style to Halfpenny to try a 50m+ effort every so often. His massive boot is a benefit to a 10 under pressure, you know you can ship it on and even if it doesn't find touch Billy can put it deep into the opposition 22. Similar with his passing game, Sarries have found that having 4 play makers in the backs is a blessing as it makes it difficult for the opposition to target Hodgson, Barritt, Farrell and Goode. Twelvetrees offers a similar threat as his passing was a real strength when he was at 10. Hence I think a future in the centres probably beckons rather than any more time at 10.

Now if you could cross the consistency, points kicking and tactical nous of Farrell with the cool headed, range, passing skills and ball in hand ability of Twelvetrees England would have much less problems at 10.

I've never really been that impressed with Farrell but then thinking back I wasn't that impressed with Wilko when he was picked to play.

Not sure I understand the suggestion that Twelvetrees is inconsistent? From what I've seen of him this season he's been very consistent, and he looks like he's under instructions to do the basics. For instance he seems to be carrying into contract more, he hits a huge number of rucks, has rarely kicked from hand and only unveiled the flat pass in the wide channels.

This is really his go at 12 as Cockerill wouldn't pick him there last season. I still think he needs to move on this summer if he wants to pkay for England, as Cockerill obviously prefers Allen and even picked Smith ahead of him last week. If we can get himself somewhere where he plays every week and where they trust him with the kicking I'm sure he'll play for England.

As observed above, he can run, carry, hit rucks, tackle (I think his defence is excellent), kick from hand and ground, and is in my opinion one of the very finest passers in English rugby. Why would you not want to make use of that?

DaveM wrote:
As observed above, he can run, carry, hit rucks, tackle (I think his defence is excellent), kick from hand and ground, and is in my opinion one of the very finest passers in English rugby.

And yet despite all that hes rarely the stand out player in a game. Its rather baffling really.

Sgt Pooly Farrell has won an AP medal kicking the winning kicks. He's going to get some plaudits for that.

Gowales

DaveM why would Cockerill pick Smith and Allen if Twelvetrees is so unbelievably amazing? If he can't get into the Leicester first team why should he be considered for England? Is Cockerill simply a hopeless coach who doesn't know how good the mighty Twelvetrees is?

Whatever club you support should sign him up as soon as possible.

It's difficult to pick someone with so little gametime under their belt.

Beshocked.....what's Farrell winning an AP's medal got to do with been ready for England? Didn't Erinle win an AP medal and play in a few HC finals....

Sgt Pooly it shows he has what it takes in high pressure big matches situations. Doesn't get that much bigger than an AP Final. It shows Farrell has nerves of steel. Outplaying the current England fly half in the process was not a bad effort either.

What has Erinle got to do with anything? It's like comparing chalk and cheese.

I've said Farrell has a great temperament but don't think he has the skill set yet to start for England.

You then brought up his AP medal? I highlighted Erinle as he has numerous awards and performances in finals but hes hardly Internationsal quality.

Sgt pooly you seem to be forgetting that Farrell is 20. You didn't read it clearly I said Owen Farrell kicked the winning kicks. He notched up 17 points in that final. He won an AP medal because of his efforts. If he had missed just one of his 6 kicks, Leicester would have triumphed.

Erinle was tried out for England when he was obviously past his sell by date. If he had played for England at his peak.....

Farrell is not yet the finished article. He is 20. Writing him off as not international quality is just silly.

I stated hes not ready for International as he needs to develop other aspects of his game past defence & kicking.

Do you think he's ready to start for England?

Ready to start? No. Possible squad member? Yes. Simply for experience. He's in the mix for selection into the England squad but I would probably give him a little longer to develop a more well rounded style.

At the moment he reminds a bit of Jonny Wilkinson in terms of style. He needs to add a more notches to his bow.

Not sure what the issue was......we seem to agree on where Farrell is at this moment in time