Handicaps in sport, a good or a bad thing?

I have never played competitive golf but in the past I played some competitive snooker. There used to be some events in which players were given a handicap. I would never enter these as I thought it was unfair to the good players (I was not that good) who would possibly spend many hours in practice. Why should the casual player be given an advantage? Is this the same in golf? Should the dedicated golfer who puts in the hours be allowed to lose to the one who doesn't? Can a handicap in golf be manipulated so that on paper a golfer has a high handicap, but come competition time he/she reveals their true game in order to win?

Lorus, the world of golf is full of people with artifically high handicaps and also people who cheat to get lower handicaps. No where near the noble sport it's made out to be.

I think they are OK if not taken too seriously. Problem is they are always taken far too seriously in any number of ways.

Handicaps in golf are good thing because they allow everyone to compete with an equal chance to win.

As touched on by diggers it depends how you view them, at the moment way too much emphasis is placed on a players handicap. If betting on matches was as much of a norm as it was in the later half of the 19th century then they would have a greater purpose.

The handicap prize/ranking of any competition should be a side show of interest for those not able to win through their own skill. There is no need for the hours wasted calculating and maintaining handicaps to such a high degree of precision.

George1507 wrote:Handicaps in golf are good thing because they allow everyone to compete with an equal chance to win.

You could do the same for pretty much any sport and I know a few others occasionally do but to nothing like the same extent as golf. So why dont other sports do it ? I think its probably more the fact that in most cases golf is a pastime and a sport so the competitive side isn't seen in the same light.
Ultimately in an event the guy with the lowest score is the winner, handicaps just add an element of fun to something for the rest of the field IMO.
The thing they are fairly useful for is to keep a measure of your own ability against the course, I can see logic in that. Not so much in making yourself competitive against people who are simply just better players.

Mac, that's a bit harsh, the vast majority of club golfers are not very good and so winning a competion probably means more to them than to a Cat 1/ scratch player.
All the low players I know are only interested in winning scratch competitions, and in handicap competitions are only interested in getting cut.
I've no problem if the money/prize is contested mostly by standard of player which makes up the majority of those taking part, in most cases, the mid-high handicap range.

If there was no handicapping, then all the competitions in any club would be won by a small group of players. Probably less than 10 players would win every event.

Handicaps give all the other players a chance to win something, and that's why handicaps are essential, and why golf is so popular.

Golf is always compared to life. So in life no one is given a handicap (one that aids them anyway). Would a person who has worked hard to achieve a really good standard of play not be resentful if some high handicap hacker took a prize from him/her?

Lorus,
Depends why you play, I've always thought weekly club competitions a bit tinpot as I don't take too much satisfaction in beating worse players, neither am a bothered to be beaten by better players.

The purpose of playing golf for me is A) To enjoy myself, and B) Improve.


I do like the challenge of Scratch competitions though where no handicaps are involved, as they are taken a bit more seriously and winning one feels more of a satisfaction as they are normally competed for by better players.

Super, you didn't say if you were bothered by being beaten by worse players.

lorus59 wrote:Golf is always compared to life. So in life no one is given a handicap (one that aids them anyway). Would a person who has worked hard to achieve a really good standard of play not be resentful if some high handicap hacker took a prize from him/her?

Just enter scratch comps if that concerns you overly much. Personally, I quite like the challenge of competing in both scratch and handicap events and I get to play with loads of people whom I'd otherwise not meet if it were on a scratch basis only.

Sorry, it was poorly worded and a bit of a middle.

To clarify things, In handicap competitions I don't care if I'm beaten by a player of mid to high handicap as I only enter handicap competitions in th ehope of a handicap reduction, but I also take no satisfaction by beating them.

If I entered a competition with no handicaps, I would come way down the order, but that is justified because I am not as good as them. I don't deserve to win and if I did due to a handicap, it would be a hollow victory (A bit like Man U yesterday against 10 men for 80 minutes).

George1507 wrote:If there was no handicapping, then all the competitions in any club would be won by a small group of players. Probably less than 10 players would win every event.

Handicaps give all the other players a chance to win something, and that's why handicaps are essential, and why golf is so popular.

Doesn't answer the question as to why other sports dont do the same.

Lorus, very much my reasoning.

If I win a competition, I want it to be because I played better than everyone else, and not because I subtract a number, pre-determined on my skill from my gross score.

Diggers, horse racing uses handicaps.
Decathlon, Heptathlon are worked out on a basis of personal bests, effectively a handicap on how you are expected to perform.

Also American Football effectively handicaps when the worst team from the previous season gets the first pick of the years best player.

I think handicaps in many sports would be difficult to accurately work out, as you are usually playing a dynamic opposition, i.e another human being or team of human beings, not a static course upon which you can measure yourself with a reasonable degree of consistency.

I don't understand what you mean by Decathlon and Heptathlon scoring is effectively a handicap?

You get a score based on how well you do in each event. Your PB is irrelevant. There is no handicapping system at all.

Although in Australia (and in the past here) they run a series of handicapped sprints with big prize money for the winners. Lots of dodgy dealing in those too.

Decathlon/Heptathlon, you gain scores based upon your personal best, it is not directly calculated against how everyone else does, presumably so individual specialists don't get too far ahead in particular events.

Horse racing I guess. Though just a business to me, not a sport.
No idea what you are talking about re the athletics comparison. Can't see a link to handicap at all there.
The draft one is interesting, but again a million miles away from golf.

Diggers, I'm not saying that handicapping is the same across all Sports, merely that it exists to a greater or lesser degree.

I suppose F1 has reverse handicapping where the fastest qualifier effectively gets a head start, be intereresting to see them all in a line as it might make a dreary sport a bit more interesting, at least for the first corner.

super_realist wrote:Decathlon/Heptathlon, you gain scores based upon your personal best, it is not directly calculated against how everyone else does, presumably so individual specialists don't get too far ahead in particular events.

Utter tripe. In Decathlon & Heptathlon you gain points for how you have performed against a standard. The standard points tables are published by the IAAF. http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/Competitions/TechnicalArea/04/33/41/20110124082825_httppostedfile_IAAF_Scoring_Tables_of_Athletics_2011_23299.pdf
It has absolutely nothing to do with your personal best.

Apologies, its a pretty complicated scoring system which has gone through numerous revisions so may have got confused with what I remember when I've seen it, however the system does help to normalise the data so that you have to perform well across all events to win, you can't just do well in 2 or 3.

Handicaps is one reason golf is a social sport and remains popular. I would guess 99% of golfers are honest about their handicap, but there are always a small few who try to gain an advantage. Young or improving golfers will have the advantage and older players whoes handicaps are on the up will have the disadvantage as the actual handicap always lags current form.

I've been playing the winter 4's for the first time this year. Four ball, better ball matchplay. Lowest handicaper goes to scratch and other 3 guys get half the difference. I'm off 5, my partner is off 18 and the opponents handicaps have ranged from 5 to 22, but mostly on the high side.

Becuase of the handicap system we have a friendly competitive match each weekend and I get to meet some interesting guys. Although no-one takes it too seriously most weeks one of the four has to make a shot down the closing holes that will effect the outcome.

What other sport allows 4 poeple of either sex, different ages and abilities enjoy the same sport together. Very few if none at all I think (someone will come up with a few but that's missing the point). We all like playing with guys of similar handicaps but I'll enjoy a game with a high handicapper provided they know the proper etiquette, aren't slow and are ahppy to chat about this and that between shots.

The handicap system also gives every medal a purpose and an interest. A good start and your trying to lower your handicap with every shot making a difference. A poor start and there's always a chance of sneaking a buffer, which can be equally rewarding.

Scottie that all sounds like you and your friends enjoy your games of golf. But that sounds really more like golf being a game and not really a competitive sport.

Lorus59,

Your right, but handicap competitions for low handicappers is never a competitive sport, but it is for most higher handicappers.

But your maybe missing one point. Handicaps allows every golfer to compete against themselves during every medal round. Although competition is externally viewed as opponent against oppenent(s), fundamentally every sport is each person competing aginst themselves. In golf you are competing against yourself, competing against the golf course and then hoping the result of these two competitions are better than your opponent's own internal competitions.

With no handicaps in golf the fun of competition is limited to low handicappers. Even in scratch events the competition can vary. A 1 handicapper could be the favourite to win his Club Chamionship, half fancy his outside chances at District level / local Opens and be happy to make up the numbers and in National events with making the cut, not winning, the measure of success.

Ive never understood why more emphasis isnt placed on categories during handicap comps. All the 10-15 handicap players heaped together for example, and if you as a 14 handicapper say have the lowest net score out of that group then thats a real achievement, something to be proud of. Might not happen very often but realistically especially with mid to high handicaps there isnt a lot of difference on the day in terms of ability so the field is level enough in terms of ability without giving people shots. Surely there is much more kudos in winning fair and square than winning because you have more shots to knock off your gross.
If you play most sports you end up finding a level where you compete against people of a similar ability on an equal footing. You dont handicap to achieve a false parity.

A handicap system might also prevent people from progressing if they believe it puts them on an equal footing with better players.

Play from their level and I think people are more likely to improve.

Super,

I accept some golfers prefer to be competitive in handicap competitions (polite phrase for bandits of course), but surely most golfers during most of their playing years want to reduce their handicap. I would agree many golfers in later life once their handicaps start to climb no longer worry about their handicap.

The average age of people who play golf regularly in the UK is about 58, and most of them can't compete with players who play off single figure handicaps and are 30+ years younger, so handicaps are vital to them. I agree that they may not worry whether their handicap is going up or down, but they need their handicap to compete.

For people who work, have families, time commitments and all that, the notion that golf is a game that should be played off scratch is complete nonsense. This is not the Open Championship, or the Amateur Championship, it's the monthly medal that we are talking about here.

I would agree that most people want to reduce their handicap, certainly my primary reason for playing competitions, however there are those who want to win competitions, and maintaining an artificially high handicap is a good way for them to do it. Disgraceful and as sad as it is. Every club will have many such bandits.

George1507 wrote:The average age of people who play golf regularly in the UK is about 58, and most of them can't compete with players who play off single figure handicaps and are 30+ years younger, so handicaps are vital to them. I agree that they may not worry whether their handicap is going up or down, but they need their handicap to compete.

For people who work, have families, time commitments and all that, the notion that golf is a game that should be played off scratch is complete nonsense. This is not the Open Championship, or the Amateur Championship, it's the monthly medal that we are talking about here.

Up and down the country every weekend there are thousands of people competeing in road races. People of all standards, ages and abilities.The vast majority know that they are not going to win the race, they are there to compete and to do as well as they can, maybe run a best time.
All of this can apply to golf. Most sports are not set up to give everyone who takes part a chance of "winning", they happen because people enjoy taking part and having fun, meeting their friends and maybe getting better.
Its not even remotely a complete nonsense in most sports for everyone to be on an even footing, it would be seen as a copmplete nonsense in fact to do it any other way.

Diggers wrote:


Its not even remotely a complete nonsense in most sports for everyone to be on an even footing, it would be seen as a copmplete nonsense in fact to do it any other way.

That's the point - everyone is NOT on an even footing. Older people, infirm people, people of lesser ability need a handicap system to be able to compete.

They are out there able to swing a club and post a score, its no different whatsoever to a tubby 50 year old guy who runs once a week competing agaisnt a decent county athlete.
At the end of the day it is simple manipulation to create a false result.
Fine if it makes for a nice cosy atmosphere, I do get why it happens. Its just got nothing to do with sport IMO.

Diggers, precisely why I take nothing out of playing in a handicap competition. All i care about is posting a good score to reduce the handicap.

It's like playing football against a bunch of choppers and having to give them a 10-0 start.

Sorry. I don't get this at all. If people don't like the handicap system go play some other sport or keep well out of the Medals etc.

If all people want to do is play social golf, fine, do away with handicaps and don't play with your mates. Do you never play for the beers or lunch etc? If you're the best in your 4 by a margin do they let you win all the time?

Diggers, I imagine the fun runners aren't competing for anything.

Diggers wrote:...Ive never understood why more emphasis isnt placed on categories during handicap comps....

There is emphasis this way, at least there is in our Medals/Stablefords. I'm only competing against the other Div 1 players. Those in Div 2 are only competing amongst themselves as are those in Div 3. You can't narrow these bands too much as it'd be daft and impractical.

Another thing.

It may just be me but I find it pretty satisfying to beat my opponent in, say, a singles handicap matchplay giving 12 shots. I enjoy playing myself against the course and improving/reducing my handicap but there's more to golf (IMO) than that.

navyblueshorts wrote:Sorry. I don't get this at all. If people don't like the handicap system go play some other sport or keep well out of the Medals etc.

That's a bit harsh Navy, I don't think anyone is against the handicap system, just that as a low handicapper I have different motives for playing in competitions, for me it's not about winning competitions, it's about reducing my handicap.
I don't care who wins a medal, it's not why I play in them (unless it's a scratch medal or Open)
It doesn't affect the integrity of the medal or affect the result to play in them for that reason.

No one is asking for handicaps to be scrapped, just that people have different views of what makes a competitive scenario to them. There's nothing wrong with that is there?

What dont you get Navy? I dont see why people cant take a view that elements of the handicap system are overplayed and still enjoy playing golf. You can still enjoy playing the pressure of a medal whilst not caring about your net score. Its just about competing and doing the best you can in a more pressured environment.
I know that there are divisions but the handicaps still apply withing the divisions. The point I was making that you could do this without applying handicaps. Just a bunch of guys of relatively similar abilities playing against each other.
Again, this is what most sports do, golf is the anomaly not the norm.

Diggers,

Golf is not the norm as you say, but stonger for it. There are plenty of scratch competions for low handicapper, but the handicap system gives a small level of competition for higher handicappers. Let them have some fun as well.

Even in bounce games most of us would give shots to a higher handicapper to get them involved in the game.

I agree the handicap system offers a different level of competion but it is fundamental to the club game and I really can't see any downside.

Scottie, that's the whole thing though, no one is doubting it's worth, just that different people of different handicaps see competitions based upon handicap in a different light to other people, it doesn't mean they should bugger off and not play in handicap medals as Navy suggests, just that they have different reasons for playing in them.

E.g. I always think of my score in Gross, a higher handicapper will usually state it net and if a higher handicapper beats me on net score then it doesn't bother me, because I know I haven't been beaten by a better golfer, rather just a scoring system. I take more satisfaction from getting the lowest gross, than winning best net score.

Super, you see as a high handicapper I would never think of my score as net, simply because it is not the score that I shot. The gross is.
Scottie, Im quite happy for them to have their fun. Simply saying for me with my mindset it doesnt work. You either win or you dont, you are the best or you arent.

Oh I don't know Diggers. I don't get a lot of things .

Just out of interest, I wonder how many players would stick with the game if not for the handicapping system and therefore their ability to win a comp? Would be great fun wouldn't it if you can't win anything, ever?

No-one has answered me yet re. friendly games amongst mates for the beers etc? Does everyone always play these off scratch? Or does no-one play friendlies with small wagers on the game?

Navy, It depends very much on the people playing.

I play handicap when playing with higher handicappers, but take it far less seriously than a game where everyone plays off bare feet.

I don't want to see an end to the handicap system, as I realise many people find it really important, I just don't have an interest in winning a handicap competition, it's very much secondary to reducing my handicap and posting a good scratch score. Don't see the harm in that.

i like playing handicap competitions. i won one last season and got my handicap down to cat 1 for the first time. to me this was a bigger achievement than the win itself, but i did enjoy the win nonetheless. i usually expect to win one handicap comp a season, and would be disappointed not too, but improving my handicap is the main aim i guess. i guess hovering around 5-6 handicap it is going to be tricky (but not impossible) to compete for scratch prizes in a club where there are about 75 players in cat 1.

i think the handicap system is a great benefit to golf as a sport at club level. it's one of those things that just works with the way the game is played, and it would be difficult to apply to other sports. obviously it has its flaws and shouldn't be taken too seriously, but the principle behind it is good as far as i'm concerned.

navyblueshorts wrote:Oh I don't know Diggers. I don't get a lot of things .

Just out of interest, I wonder how many players would stick with the game if not for the handicapping system and therefore their ability to win a comp? Would be great fun wouldn't it if you can't win anything, ever?

No-one has answered me yet re. friendly games amongst mates for the beers etc? Does everyone always play these off scratch? Or does no-one play friendlies with small wagers on the game?

But most people in sport arent winners, thats the sad fact surely but where its the taking part that matters because you enjoy it. It doesnt stop vast numbers of people competing in all manner of sports every week.
Also in my preferred model you have say 12-18 handicappers playing on an equal footing against each other. I really beleive on a given day anyone in that group could win. As I said before imagine the 18 handicapper who plays a blinder and beats all or even just most of that group, that would be satisfying.
When I play mates if we are anything like close then we will all pay off the same handicap or more likely just look at our gross scores.

navyblueshorts wrote:Oh I don't know Diggers. I don't get a lot of things .

Just out of interest, I wonder how many players would stick with the game if not for the handicapping system and therefore their ability to win a comp? Would be great fun wouldn't it if you can't win anything, ever?

No-one has answered me yet re. friendly games amongst mates for the beers etc? Does everyone always play these off scratch? Or does no-one play friendlies with small wagers on the game?

If people quit playing golf because the handicap system was abolished, what would it say about that person? Why were they playing golf in the first place? Was it to get some hollow glory by winning a competition due to a handicap advantage? I am sure older tennis players in tennis clubs know they haven't chance in hell in winning any competitions but they enjoy the sport and keep playing.

lorus59 wrote:

If people quit playing golf because the handicap system was abolished, what would it say about that person? Why were they playing golf in the first place? Was it to get some hollow glory by winning a competition due to a handicap advantage? I am sure older tennis players in tennis clubs know they haven't chance in hell in winning any competitions but they enjoy the sport and keep playing.

I don't think people would quit playing golf but I would imagine a lot of mid-high handicappers would not enter competitions as it would be equivalent to throwing money away. In turn having reduced fields for comp's would reduce income for the pro's and the clubs, beer and lunches, on these days.

lorus59 wrote:If people quit playing golf because the handicap system was abolished, what would it say about that person? Why were they playing golf in the first place? Was it to get some hollow glory by winning a competition due to a handicap advantage? I am sure older tennis players in tennis clubs know they haven't chance in hell in winning any competitions but they enjoy the sport and keep playing.

What would it say about them? Not a lot by my thinking. I don't think someone who wins a handicap comp thinks it's "hollow glory" but I also seriously doubt they think they're the best player in the club. We obviously aren't going to agree on this one; I'm quite happy to play with and against others while giving whatever shots the system says I should.

Coming back to the lack of handicap in other sports, in general, you don't play against people markedly better/worse than yourself/yourselves. If you play team (and individual) sports, there's often a divisional structure and you rarely play those above/below your division. Playing (competitively) a rugby match between, say, Northampton 1st XV and Old Bristolians 2nd XV is pretty pointless. You don't therefore need a handicap in the same sense really.

To answer the question - Handicaps are a good thing and golf is lucky that the format (players play the course not the opponent) lends itself to a simple handicap system. The handicap system itself is complicated, but once players have a handicap then giving the approriate number of shots is simples.

Some low handicappers resent the bandit or the high handicapper who takes handicap competitions too seriously (I used to be this person), but this is a small price to pay for all of us being able to complete against each other if we choose to.

I played a game of golf with my brother at the weekend and we had a decent match with me giving his several shots. I have agreed to play him at tennis tomorrow. He plays on a regular basis and I haven't touched a racket for 20 years. I know neither of us is going to enjoy the game - more about getting together and getting some exercise. As I said we are lucky golf has a handicap system.