West Indies greatest test XI

Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
Lara
Lloyd (c)
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Ambrose
Holding
Gibbs

Thoughts?

None of the 3 W's, no Headley?

Hard to argue with that one. Perhaps Headley in for Lloyd with Richards as skipper.

On a seaming track maybe bring in Wes Hall/Garner/Walsh for Gibbs and rely on Sobers and Richards for spin (granted Sobers wasn't the most attacking spinner in the world).

I would replace Ambrose with Roberts and Lara with .... well, you should all know that

1.Gordon Greenidge
2.Desmond Haynes
3.Viv Richards (c)
4.Brian Lara
5.Shiv Chanderpaul
6.Garry Sobers
7.Jeff Dujon (wk)
8.Malcolm Marshall
9.Curtley Ambrose
10.Michael Holding
11.Lance Gibbs

Reckon the 3 places under threat from the OP would be:
Haynes. Perhaps Conrad Hunte would be a better bet?
Lloyd. In for his captaincy, obviously, but would having a better batsman, Headley, Weekes, Walcott, Kanhai be a better option?
Gibbs. Good to have a spin option, but would one of Garner, Walsh, Hall, Daniel, Croft, Patterson, Bishop be a better bet?

before anyone moans at me for picking shiv, his test record is brilliant, and on the leading run scoers in test matches list, i think he is top 10 or 12.

Greenidge
Weekes
Headley
V Richards
Lara
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Garner

What about the mighty West Indies XI which toured South Africa in 1983/84?

1 Alvin Greenidge
2 Everton Mattis
3 Faoud Bacchus
4 Lawrence Rowe (the 80s version of Brian Lara)
5 Alvin Kallicharran
6 Collis King
7 Emerson Trotman (keeper)
8 Ezra Moseley
9 Franklyn Stephenson
10 Sylvester Clarke
11 Colin Croft
12th Man Bernard Julien

Stella - not bad but the wrong choice at number five. You should know that.

guildfordbat wrote:Stella - not bad but the wrong choice at number five. You should know that.

Who would replace the best left hander that's ever lived?

Stella wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Stella - not bad but the wrong choice at number five. You should know that.

Who would replace the best left hander that's ever lived?

How about Jimmy Adams?

Shows how good the Windies were over the 70s and 80s that quality players like Richie Richardson aren't even getting a look in.

Stella
I would probably only change Ambrose for Roberts - Ambrose and Garner would take the same role, and I rate Garner as slightly better (although Curtley had the better statistics, playing as the spearhead of a much weaker attack).

CF
Chanderpaul is brilliant at what he does, but for me doesn't quite match up to the fantastic middle order players who are getting picked.

GB
I'd make the change if we were talking about playing a real match, not producing a fantasy team - indeed, CFs suggestion of Chanders wouls also be of merit if we were trying to construct a balanced batting line-up rather than the best players..

dummy- he is on the top 10-12 top run scoers in tests of all time, IMO that is good enough to get in that side easily.

Chanderpaul is very good at holding a crumbling batting line-up together. But he is also one of the most selfish batsmen I have ever seen. And simply not as good as some of the other West Indies middle-order players.

I would go for:
Greenidge
Haynes (Greenidge wouldn't have been as good a player without him)
Richards
Headley
Lara (with apologies to guilford)
Sobers
? (as mentioned before Dujon I don't rate that highly; who else is there?)
Gibbs (every side needs a spinner)
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose (just over Roberts)

2nd XI Chanderpaul still wouldn't make it. Guilford's favourite probably would though... :-)

Digging out the Cricinfo team (http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/468845.html) from a couple of years back there's a couple of interesting names in Hunte and Hendriks. Derrick Murray was another useful keeper.

Gordon Greenidge
Sir Conrad Hunte
George Headley
Sir Viv Richards
Sir Garry Sobers
Brian Lara
Jackie Hendriks
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Curtly Ambrose
Lance Gibbs

Mike Selig wrote:
2nd XI Chanderpaul still wouldn't make it. Guilford's favourite probably would though... :-)

Possibly

Would say Deryck Murray was the best specialist WI keeper from the 50's thru the mid 80's.
Perhaps Warwickshire followers might also have something to say about that.
A better bat than his Test figures suggest with ten tons.

Would offer:

Greenidge
Hunte
Headley
Kanhai (wkt)
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Worrell (capt)
Marshall
Roberts
Gibbs

kwinigolfer wrote:Would say Deryck Murray was the best specialist WI keeper from the 50's thru the mid 80's.
Perhaps Warwickshire followers might also have something to say about that.
A better bat than his Test figures suggest with ten tons.

Would offer:

Greenidge
Hunte
Headley
Kanhai (wkt)
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Worrell (capt)
Marshall
Roberts
Gibbs

From what I remember, Murray was a very, very good 'keeper and, as you suggest, no mug with the bat.
Certainly I'd have no quibbles about putting him into an all-time XI, especially with the batting at the WIndies disposal.

Hoggy,
I couldn't find room for a specialist wickie but Kanhai's kept in Tests so I'll go with him!

kwinigolfer wrote:Hoggy,
I couldn't find room for a specialist wickie but Kanhai's kept in Tests so I'll go with him!

Risky

A couple of possible WI teams. Not always trying for the greatest players but the greatest team. Shooting off to another sport for a moment - Sir Alf Ramsey was once asked years later to explain the selection of Jackie Charlton for England's (football) World Cup winning team. Alf commented along the lines of, ''There were several better defenders than Jack but no one better at playing alongside Bobby Moore.'' [Mike will understand the relevance of that comment even if he has no knowledge of 1960s' football. ]

First XI
1. Greenidge
2. Haynes
3. Headley (capt)
4. Richards
5. Gomes
6. Sobers
7. Murray (wkt)
8. Marshall
9. Roberts
10. Holding
11. Gibbs

Second XI
1. Hunte
2. Fredericks
3. Kanhai
4. Lara
5. Weekes
6. Worrell (capt)
7. Walcott (wkt)
8. Garner
9. Ambrose
10. Hall
11. Walsh

The keeper is a bit of an issue, particularly for the seconds. I know Walcott did keep at times although don't know how good he was. Kwini goes for Kanhai behind the sticks - not sure about that as I do know Kanhai was never keen on keeping as shown by the story below.

During the early '70s Warks often had 3 Test match keepers in their side - Deryck Murray (the regular keeper), Kanhai (by then purely a batsman) and Alan Smith (ex England keeper in the '60s who had bizarrely reinvented himself as a seam bowler). Anyway, during one match when Warks were fielding, Murray got injured and had to be replaced behind the stumps. Smith couldn't as he was bowling and Kanhai no longer fancied the role. One time England batsman John Jameson ended up donning Murray's gloves!

Back to my two teams above. With Headley and Worrell as captains, I can't find a place for Lloyd. That can't be right, can it? However, surely from my first XI you can't expect me to drop .... Richards?

Thing is, guildford, under my leadership Kanhai is nearly as good a team player as Larry Gomes is under yours!

(At least with Jameson behind the stumps nothing could get by him. Catches might be dropped but extras kept to a minimum.)

kwinigolfer wrote:Thing is, guildford, under my leadership Kanhai is nearly as good a team player as Larry Gomes is under yours!

(At least with Jameson behind the stumps nothing could get by him. Catches might be dropped but extras kept to a minimum.)

The Corporal said very much the same about Jameson upon the first telling of that tale!

Guildford
Surely if you're looking for a 'glue' type player for your first team, Chanderpaul would be a better bet than Gomes

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Guildford
Surely if you're looking for a 'glue' type player for your first team, Chanderpaul would be a better bet than Gomes

Keep running, Hoggy, keep running!

Gomes ahead of Lara

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Guildford
Surely if you're looking for a 'glue' type player for your first team, Chanderpaul would be a better bet than Gomes

If you want a glue type of player who bats left-handed, then surely the great Jimmy Adams has to fit the bill.

gboycottnut wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Guildford
Surely if you're looking for a 'glue' type player for your first team, Chanderpaul would be a better bet than Gomes

If you want a glue type of player who bats left-handed, then surely the great Jimmy Adams has to fit the bill.

Who need glue when you have Lara?

Not me

Right. Enough of picking holes in other peoples teams. I'll now put down my own choice so that anyone who wants to can pick holes in that.

Greenidge
Haynes
Richards(c)
Headley
Lara
Sobers
Dujon(wk)
Marshall
Ambrose
Holding
Garner

Nothing too revolutionary

Ok, guys, I'll meet you half way. We drop Lara from the stiffs and replace him with Chanderpaul or Adams. Happy?

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Right. Enough of picking holes in other peoples teams. I'll now put down my own choice so that anyone who wants to can pick holes in that.

Greenidge
Haynes
Richards(c)
Headley
Lara
Sobers
Dujon(wk)
Marshall
Ambrose
Holding
Garner

Nothing too revolutionary

Good team as it's pretty close to mine. The Windies have produced many great middle order bats but not too many great openers.
That's why I cheated and went for Weekes.

guildfordbat wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote: (At least with Jameson behind the stumps nothing could get by him. Catches might be dropped but extras kept to a minimum.)

The Corporal said very much the same about Jameson upon the first telling of that tale!

Guildford - thanks for getting in quickly there

Greenidge
Weekes
Headley
Richards (c)
Lara
Sobers
Dujon (wk)
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Walsh

gibbs has to be in there!

cricketfan90 wrote:gibbs has to be in there!

I agree - and that's the advantage of having Sobers. You can have three (HoF standard) front line pace bowlers (eg Marshall, Holding, Ambrose) and Gibbs. Plus, depending on the pitch and other conditions, Sobers can either support the faster bowlers or can act as a second spinner. That's about as versatile as you could reasonably want....

gibbs is massivley underrated by many people.

sadly so

people always remeber the quicks but forget that gibbs got 300 test wickets!

Just think that with their great pace attack and Sobers (if required) they would have more than enough to do the job. Considering they went for over a decade (late 70s - early 90s) with only part time slow/meduim bowlers to supplement the quicks - and still crushed most opposition - I'd stick with that formula; since it was the most successful.

I do think in the unique WI case - that depending on where the hypothetical match were to be played - I'd go with 4 quicks 9 times out of 10.

Maybe you had to see them in action to believe what I'm saying but I admit I never saw Gibbs play but still regard him very highly and he would most definitely be my 12th man... interchangeable with one of the fast bowlers depending on the pitch conditions.

You had to find a way to get Gomes in there , didn't you Guildford Two teams , very creative

Tough choices : I'd be hard pressed to leave Andy Roberts out , yet Holding and Marshall are certainties and with Garner/Ambrose (only picking one of them) where does that leave Gibbs? Carrying the drinks, probably , unless they're playing on a bunsen...

Sobers / Headley/ Lara /Richards must lock up the middle order , so no place for my preferred captain , Worrell or (gasp!) Weekes - unless I please Guildford by leaving out Lara ? Dilemma ...


Walcott must keep wicket, of course , so that leaves the openers, and with a respectful nod to Conrad Hunte , I will leave the pairing of Greenidge and Haynes undisturbed.
So :

Greenidge
Haynes
Headley
Weekes
Richards
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Roberts
Holding
Garner

Gibbs/Lara can share 12th man duties and Worrell will be team manager.

cricketfan90 wrote:gibbs has to be in there!

Gibbs was a very good offie but Sobers can bowl spin. This would allow you to play four GREAT pacemen.

Marshall
Ambrose
Garner
Holding

Stella wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:gibbs has to be in there!

Gibbs was a very good offie but Sobers can bowl spin. This would allow you to play four GREAT pacemen.

Marshall
Ambrose
Garner
Holding

I'm sure that at one time, West Indies actually played 5 of their out and out genuine pacemen in one test match during the late 70's to early 80's. Does anyone know?

gboycottnut wrote:

Stella wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:gibbs has to be in there!

Gibbs was a very good offie but Sobers can bowl spin. This would allow you to play four GREAT pacemen.

Marshall
Ambrose
Garner
Holding

I'm sure that at one time, West Indies actually played 5 of their out and out genuine pacemen in one test match during the late 70's to early 80's. Does anyone know?

Not that I recall. Dujon did bat at six now and again, so maybe?

Not sure they ever needed to

4 of those fellows usually did the trick...

Memory may have slipped , but I can't recall it happening.

Was Larry Gomes a quickie?

Your memory is the same as mine Alfie.

No, Gomes was a dependable left arm medium pacer (say between 120 -130 km/h? with the odd faster dart), Stella. He was a plucky batman. Great anticipation /skill with the blade... and I remember feeling frustrated watching those ODIs when he'd come to the crease after the big guns had already piled on the runs. You'd look up to the scoreboard 15 mins later and he be 30 n.o. and on his way. Difficult to get out.

Linebreaker wrote:Your memory is the same as mine Alfie.

No, Gomes was a dependable left arm medium pacer (say between 120 -130 km/h? with the odd faster dart), Stella. He was a plucky batman. Great anticipation /skill with the blade... and I remember feeling frustrated watching those ODIs when he'd come to the crease after the big guns had already piled on the runs. You'd look up to the scoreboard 15 mins later and he be 30 n.o. and on his way. Difficult to get out.

I was clutching at straws with Gomes. I remember the dogged number three well from the 1984 series and I think he bowled right arm but you may be right?

even with all them quicks you still need a classy spinner, and gibbs was certainly a world class spinner

Pretty sure Gomes bowled right arm as a Collingwood-esque fill in bowler, and the Windies also used Viv as their main spin bowling option (and occasional medium pace) until Harper and Hooper came into the side.

Never recall them using 5 genuine quicks, but then I only saw them play in England, and our batting wasn't good enough for them to need more bowling.

The big question from all this 'Best XI' discussions is who would win out of the West Indies and Australia, who seem to be head and shoulders above the other selections.