West Indies greatest test XI

by GG Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
Lara
Lloyd (c)
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Ambrose
Holding
Gibbs

Thoughts?

by Stella Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:45 am

I'd go with the Aussies.

Maybe the guile of Warne and Bradman would be the difference?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:47 am

I've always heard that while Sobers could bowl spin he was much more effective with his seamers, his spin was very much in the Paul Harris mould. So I'd play Gibbs, use Sobers as 4th seamer, and you have Sobers and Richards as back up spin options.

by dummy_half Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:48 am

Stella
I'm inclined to agree, Warne in particular tipping the balance (and balanced-ness) of the selected XIs to the Aussies. Would be interesting to see how the likes of Hayden and Gilchrist would get on against the pace battery (and battering) though...

by Stella Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:49 am

Richards is another reason why I would play four quickies.

He was a more than able back up.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:51 am

Stella wrote:Richards is another reason why I would play four quickies.

He was a more than able back up.

A good point. And if the 90-overs-a-day rule didn't apply I'd be sorely tempted to go with 4 quicks - the great Windies early 80s side was reknowned for slow over rates (I seem to recall they struggled to get through 80 in a full day).

by Guest Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:00 am

thats because they all had run ups that started from the boundary!

by Stella Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:08 am

cricketfan90 wrote:thats because they all had run ups that started from the boundary!

Only Holding's run up was long and that was in his early years. They were just in no hurry most of the time.

by dummy_half Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:31 am

CF90

It wasn't necessarily the length of the run-up that's the issue, but the urgency (or otherwise) with which the bowlers got back to their marks - both Ambrose and Walsh in particular were noted for having a very Caribbean attitude to walking back to the start of their run, and so the over rate tended to be low.

My recollection was of Holding's run being no longer than Bob Willis's (and a lot smoother), and the likes of Marshall coming in off about the same sort of run-up as Botham.

by Stella Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:59 am

dummy_half wrote:Stella
I'm inclined to agree, Warne in particular tipping the balance (and balanced-ness) of the selected XIs to the Aussies. Would be interesting to see how the likes of Hayden and Gilchrist would get on against the pace battery (and battering) though...

Gilchrist may struggle as he didn't move hid feet as well as some but he would still do well for a number seven.

Both teams have magnificent middle orders but the Windies lack a Warne (Gibbs isn't).

The English team would run them close. Their top order is as good as the others.

by Guest Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:03 am

dummy_half wrote:CF90

It wasn't necessarily the length of the run-up that's the issue, but the urgency (or otherwise) with which the bowlers got back to their marks - both Ambrose and Walsh in particular were noted for having a very Caribbean attitude to walking back to the start of their run, and so the over rate tended to be low.

My recollection was of Holding's run being no longer than Bob Willis's (and a lot smoother), and the likes of Marshall coming in off about the same sort of run-up as Botham.

i quite like the sort of carribean swagger they had about them....doing things at their own pace, however in this day and age it wouldnt be allowed.

by **Pal Joey** Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:57 am

they can still swagger... just have to swagger a little more quickly. Very Happy

by Hoggy_Bear Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:32 pm

dummy_half wrote:The big question from all this 'Best XI' discussions is who would win out of the West Indies and Australia, who seem to be head and shoulders above the other selections.

Reckon England might have something to say about that.

by Guest Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:44 pm

Linebreaker wrote:they can still swagger... just have to swagger a little more quickly.

well they cant now lol, they will be even slower now :P

by **Pal Joey** Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:56 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:they can still swagger... just have to swagger a little more quickly.

well they cant now lol, they will be even slower now :P

why?

by Stella Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:58 pm

Linebreaker wrote:
cricketfan90 wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:they can still swagger... just have to swagger a little more quickly.

well they cant now lol, they will be even slower now :P

why?

Retrieving the ball from the boundary always adds extra time Very Happy

by Guest Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:00 pm

Linebreaker wrote:
cricketfan90 wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:they can still swagger... just have to swagger a little more quickly.

well they cant now lol, they will be even slower now :P

why?

because they're about 60

by dummy_half Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:00 pm

LB
Have you watched the Windies in the last decade?

Sad that the swagger has gone, as a ferocious Windies team added so much to my childhood memories of cricket.

by guildfordbat Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:46 pm

alfie wrote:You had to find a way to get Gomes in there , didn't you Guildford Two teams , very creative

Tough choices : I'd be hard pressed to leave Andy Roberts out ....

Thanks, Alfie. Glad you and all others are now sold on Gomes. Wink

Perhaps more seriously, I'm pleased you've chosen Andy Roberts. Generally under rated of the Windies' great quick bowlers but not by world greats Sunil Gavaskar and Imran Khan. Gavaskar referred to Roberts as the cleverest and finest fast bowler he faced whist Imran decribed a ball from him as the 'most terrifying' in his entire career.

by gboycottnut Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:50 pm

What about other West Indies former batsmen during the 70's to 80's such as Roy Fredericks, Lawrence Rowe, and the great Carlisle Best?

by guildfordbat Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:06 pm

dummy_half wrote:Pretty sure Gomes bowled right arm as a Collingwood-esque fill in bowler, and the Windies also used Viv as their main spin bowling option (and occasional medium pace) until Harper and Hooper came into the side.

Never recall them using 5 genuine quicks, but then I only saw them play in England, and our batting wasn't good enough for them to need more bowling.

The big question from all this 'Best XI' discussions is who would win out of the West Indies and Australia, who seem to be head and shoulders above the other selections.

Dummy - Gomes was originally a right arm medium pace bowler but switched to off breaks later in his career. He was never more than a fill in bowler for the Windies. However, when with Middlesex in the early '70s he was originally selected by them as much for his bowling as his batting. He was released by Middlesex at the end of the '76 season when they signed Wayne Daniel.

I'm not aware of the Windies playing 5 genuine quicks. Collis King was a hard hitting number six bat who played in a few Tests and was a fifth bowler in some of those. However, he was more medium pace than genuinely quick.

by guildfordbat Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:24 pm

gboycottnut wrote:What about other West Indies former batsmen during the 70's to 80's such as Roy Fredericks, Lawrence Rowe, and the great Carlisle Best?

Sir Geoffrey - I named my first and second XI West Indies teams of all time earlier on this thread. Fredericks made the second team but I couldn't find a place for either Rowe or Best. Others to miss out were Logie, Adams, Hooper, Chanderpaul and, to my own initial surprise, Lloyd. All were extremely fine players and miss out simply because they were unlucky enough to be competing with tremendous fellow countrymen.

I had thirteen leading batsmen (of which one was an all rounder and another a wicket keeper) in my two teams. Namely - Greenidge, Haynes, Headley, Richards, Gomes, Sobers, Hunte, Fredericks, Kanhai, Lara, Weekes, Worrell and Walcott. Twelve greats and one immensely valuable player who at times was the most important of the lot. I just couldn't squeeze any more in.

by Guest Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:28 am

still baffles me that only a few people on here have gibbs in their sides.

by Hoggy_Bear Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:56 am

cricketfan90 wrote:still baffles me that only a few people on here have gibbs in their sides.

Because the WIndies have such a plethora of world-class fast bowlers and showed, during the 70s and 80s particularly, that if you have 4 top-class fastmen you don't need a spinner to dominate in all conditions.

by Guest Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:58 am

hmmm but with sobers being able to play as the 4th seamer, you could easily incorportate gibbs into the side.

by Hoggy_Bear Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:00 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:hmmm but with sobers being able to play as the 4th seamer, you could easily incorportate gibbs into the side.

But Sobers offers a spin option as well.

by Guest Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:02 pm

he was a better seamer then spinner.

by Hoggy_Bear Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:05 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:he was a better seamer then spinner.

Don't know about that.
He was originally picked for his spin bowling.

by dummy_half Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:37 pm

Hoggy
It's alwys struck me as one of cricket's great ironies that the guy many consider the 2nd best batsman of all time was originally selected as a left arm spin bowler and made his debut as a #9 bat.

Wikipedia says that Sobers was more effective as a fast-medium bowler than as a spinner, but obviously the stats are difficult since it wouldn't be recorded in the scorebook as to what he bowled when. That he was a good enough bowler in two different styles to, at least at times, justify his selection to the Test side as a bowler only does show what a great all rounder he was. He was not though one of the top 10 West Indies pace bowlers

CF90
One of the things that made the Windies so effective through the 80s and first part of the 90s was that batsmen had no let up from the physical intimidation of the genuinely fast bowlers - all bowled over 90mph consistently, but their best quartet managed to offer diversity even within the range of fast bowling:
Holding was very very fast indeed and could bowl wicket to wicket or bang in short. He also could get a little away movement
Marshall was able to move the ball either way off a good length, and had a very dangerous bouncer because his relative lack of height meant it often came through at chest or throat level.
Roberts was a great thinker of a quick, primarily moving the ball in to a right hander, and with great ability to change pace (including a very dangerous faster bouncer).
Garner was all about height and bounce - high action and being 6ft 8 meant that his back of a length ball was a brute, and his yorker was equally effective.

by Stella Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:52 pm

CF90

I'd rather have four great bowlers than three great and one very good.

by guildfordbat Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:59 pm

Dummy - excellent comments about the best West Indian quartet. Particularly liked your description of Roberts as 'a great thinker'.

The only concern I would have about them going into a modern day Test would be the mininum number of overs now having to be bowled in a day. Admittedly, that concern would rather fall away if you had Sobers as a fifth bowler.

I still wouldn't rule Gibbs out altogether though and would play him in preference to Garner if the wicket looked like it would take spin.

by alfie Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:45 pm

Right about that , Guildford - if they bowled their overs now at the rate they did 30 years ago Lloyd would be suspended every other week Very Happy

I suppose for that reason alone there would be a good case to include Gibbs , if we are to assume the "Greatest XI" has to play under modern rules ...

by gboycottnut Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:45 pm

What about the Greatest West Indies XI from the 1980's V the Greatest West Indies XI of the Noughties which includes the following lineup :-

1 Chris Gayle
2 Wavell Hinds
3 Darren Ganga
4 Ramaresh Sarwan
5 Shivnarine Chanderpaul
6 Marlon Samuels
7 Ridley Jacobs
8 Omari Banks
9 Tino Best
10 Jermaine Lawson
11 Mervyn Dillon

by guildfordbat Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:34 pm

Sir Geoffrey - I wouldn't buy tickets in advance for days 4 and 5. Wink

by gboycottnut Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:49 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Sir Geoffrey - I wouldn't buy tickets in advance for days 4 and 5.

Include Brian Lara into the noughties Great West Indies XI and also select a devastating 4 man pace attack of Mervyn Dillon, Corey Collymore, Jermaine Lawson and Tino Best to bowl at the likes of Greenidge, Haynes, Richards, Sobers etc.

by Guest Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:16 pm

omari banks was awful!

by GG Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:04 pm

Wavell Hinds
Devon Smith
Daren Ganga
Travis Dowlin
Xavier Marshall
Narsingh Deonarine
Devon Thomas
Daren Powell
Amit Jaggernauth
Brandon Bess
Pedro Collins

Very Happy

by Corporalhumblebucket Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:20 pm

Where's the facepalm smiley when you need it...... Very Happy

by Guest Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:12 pm

Greatest windies XI from the noughties would surely be:

1.Wavell Hinds
2.Chris Gayle
3.Ramnarwesh Sarwan
4.Darren Ganga
5.Shiv Chanderpaul (imo would get in both sides)
6.Marlon Samuels
7.Demesh Ramdin (wk)
8.Tino Best
9.Suilemnn Benn
10.Fidel Edwards
11.Devandre Bishoo

by alfie Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:08 pm

A bit by the way : but above references to Sobers as "bowling in 2 styles" actually rather undersell him .

Sobers was actually known to bowl in Tests with the new ball as a seamer , but he also bowled both left arm orthodox and as a left arm "Chinaman" wrist spinner...

OK to be honest I don't remember how many wickets he got in each style , but the range itself is impressive.

by gboycottnut Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:55 pm

There is a strong case also for including the tall 6ft 6/7 inch Trinidad and Tobago pace bowler Tony Gray in a team of the Greatest West Indies XI, as his bowling stats alone at international level back up his case. He averaged 17 in tests, and he averaged 18 in ODI's with a wicket every 28 balls bowled. If it wasn't for another taller giraffe in the West Indies team at that time blocking Gray's selection for the West Indies team, Gray surely would have been a key member of the mid 1980's West Indies pace attack and would likely have gone onto become not only the finest pace bowler that Trinidad and Tobago have produced before the emergence of Mervyn Dillon in the 1990's, but also the finest pace bowler in West Indian cricket history since Learie Constantine bowled bodyline at Douglas Jardine and co in the 1933 test series in England as a way of doing the Aussies a big favour for the treatment that Jardine's bowlers dished out to Bradman and co during that 1932/33 Ashes series.

by guildfordbat Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:10 pm

Sir Geoffrey - I also remember Tony Gray from his time at Surrey. Fantastic stats for the Windies as you say. Unlucky to play only 5 Tests due to injury although that probably also resulted in his final rather flattering figures.

by gboycottnut Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:36 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Sir Geoffrey - I also remember Tony Gray from his time at Surrey. Fantastic stats for the Windies as you say. Unlucky to play only 5 Tests due to injury although that probably also resulted in his final rather flattering figures.

But he also had a similar bowling average in the ODI version of the game, with a best bowling performance of 6 for something against Allan Border's very strong Australian batting lineup in 1991. Therefore from this evidence it seems to point to these stats being anything but flattering.

by GG Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:08 am

cricketfan90 wrote:Greatest windies XI from the noughties would surely be:

1.Wavell Hinds
2.Chris Gayle
3.Ramnarwesh Sarwan
4.~~Darren Ganga~~ Lara
5.Shiv Chanderpaul (imo would get in both sides)
6.~~Marlon Samuels~~ Hooper
7.Demesh Ramdin (wk)
8.~~Tino Best~~ Taylor
9.Suilemnn Benn
10.~~Fidel Edwards~~ Collymore
11.~~Devandre Bishoo~~ Lawson

by gboycottnut Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:05 am

It depends on what criteria the players are eligible from. For instance,
both Curtley Ambrose and Courtney Walsh were mainly 1990's players, but
both played on until the year 2000. Therefore, it could be argued that
both along with Jimmy Adams could play for this noughties XI, thus
providing a far more stronger opposition XI for the 80's all-time WI XI
to play against. So a noughties XI could be:-

1.Chris Gayle
2.Carl Hooper
3.Brian Lara
4.Jimmy Adams
5.Ramnarwesh Sarwan
6.Shiv Chanderpaul
7.Ridley Jacobs (wk)
8.Curtley Ambrose
9.Fidel Edwards
10. Jermaine Lawson
11.Courtney Walsh

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:21 pm

alright if we are talking players that started in 1990's but finished in 2000'0s then my side would be:

1.Chris Gayle
2.Wavell Hinds
3.Ramnsarsh Sarwan
4.Jimmy Adams
5.Brian Lara
6.Shiv Chanderpaul
7.Ridley Jacobs (wk)
8.Jermaine Lawson
9.Courtney Walsh
10.Suilemn Benn
11.Fidel Edwards

by gboycottnut Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:13 pm

cricketfan90 wrote:alright if we are talking players that started in 1990's but finished in 2000'0s then my side would be:

1.Chris Gayle
2.Wavell Hinds
3.Ramnsarsh Sarwan
4.Jimmy Adams
5.Brian Lara
6.Shiv Chanderpaul
7.Ridley Jacobs (wk)
8.Jermaine Lawson
9.Courtney Walsh
10.Suilemn Benn
11.Fidel Edwards

So why have you left out one of the greatest ever fast bowlers that has ever played for the West Indies the great Curtley Ambrose? His test career finished in England in 2000 which thereby makes him eligible to play for the All-Time Noughties XI in place of someone like Suilemann Benn.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:16 pm

because i wanted a spinner in the side, and he has been the best spinner they had in that decade...i would have had bishoo but he just missed the turn of the decade.

by rohan.kallicharan Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:45 pm

There are some great comments and debate above. We actually did a project for a website in 2010 in which we attempted, with great difficulty, to select a greatest West Indian XI of all time.

Allow me for a second just to indulge myself with the following quote from a guy called Gary Steckles:-

"What a story it was. For decade after glorious decade, teams put together from a collection of tiny Caribbean nations – there’s no such country as the West Indies – ruled the world. And they ruled imperiously, with style, with panache, with the sort of swagger that no other cricketers, no matter how talented they were, could hope to match.

It was called Calypso Cricket … and it was a wondrous thing.

Each victory was savoured and celebrated, and beating England, the former colonial masters of every cricket-playing Caribbean country, was the biggest source of joy."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/cricket/article/726574--calypso-cricket-fades-away

West Indian cricket has had a fabled history, and to choose a mere XI is a thankless task, but here is the XI with which I came up:-

Greenidge
Hunte
Richards (C)
Headley
Lara
Kanhai (WK)
Sobers
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Gibbs

And yes, you could name a 2nd XI that could beat them on any day including the likes of the 3 Ws, Kallicharran, Lloyd, Roberts, Hall etc

by Corporalhumblebucket Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:54 pm

rohan.kallicharan wrote: .... Indian cricket has had a fabled history, and to choose a mere XI is a thankless task, but here is the XI with which I came up:-

Greenidge
Hunte
Richards (C)
Headley
Lara
Kanhai (WK)
Sobers
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Gibbs

Good post (and a good user name!) As you've been reading the earlier posts on this thread, you will know that several posters, including CricketFan and myself will be particularly pleased to see the inclusion of Gibbs.

Kanhai was a very fine batsman (and I voted recently for his inclusion in the 606v2 Hall of Fame - see separate thread) - I'm interested that you consider him good enough to be the wicket keeper for this team. Or maybe there's an element of pragmatism in that you couldn't face leaving out any of the batting legends? Very Happy

by rohan.kallicharan Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:28 pm

I'll be honest - I could not pick an all time West Indian side without Indo-Caribbean representation. I would otherwise have selected Clyde Walcott. That said, I have heard his keeping spoken about very positively.

The one that I truly thought long about leaving out was Lara, but again did not like the thought of picking a team without a left-hander in the top order.

Tough call, you could name another team that would be right up there with it.

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