Leicester (and English Rugby?) just not good enough.

First topic message reminder :

Last night was my work Christmas Party (yes I know 3 weeks late) which meant I was saved the pain of watching that thrashing. However huge congratulations to Ulster - such a dominant scoreline can only ever be attributed to one team being much better than the other.

Tigers European campaign this season has been indicative of the abilities of the team. We have had tight wins at home against the two decent teams in teh pool, and suffered heavy defeats in the reverse fixtures. Tigers were comprehensively outplayed by Clermont in the away leg and I can only assume the same was true last night. We are obviously only the third best team in the group - so right now we are a long way away from being a team that can challenge in Europe.

Is it fair to suggest that the ability of the English teams is and English players is at a low ebb right now? After all Tigers are only 4th in the table and the teams are so close that effectively that counts as mid table. However, as Portnoy keeps pointing out, a table based on the 7 league matches since the World Cup would see Leicester at the top. This suggests that tigers are still one of the best teams in the AP - yet are a long way from being truly competitive in Europe. So yes I think it is fair to say that the standard of teh AP is not great right now.

How about English players - after all Quins are still doing well in Europe with a largely (excl Nick Evans) english team. that is true - yet tigers still have 11 players in the EPS/Saxons squads. Yet those players - among the elite of English players - are not good enough to compete with the good teams in Europe.

Perhaps I am being overly pessimistic - but right now things look very bleak for club and country.

Geoff the Tigers fans at the game tried to argue the same thing...that their league was tougher as they had to finish in the top 6 to qualify for Europe whereas the Irish team could concenrate on the HEC.

Interestingly they were ultra confident that they'd win the game up until half time and didn't mention any of this until the game was out of sight

Back to the OP. Saracens and quins are genuine contenders but I think the AP is not as strong a league as a lot of English fans believe and the English teams need to up their game if they want to dominate this competition again.

The French teams have raised the bar and in recent seasons only Leinster and Munster have picked up the gauntlet.

Another myth raising it head I see. As the Ulster CEO has said the 3 leading Irish Provinces have a salary bill about the same as Ospreys and the leading English clubs (and that includes Central Contracts)

Irish rugby might be better run but it isn't richer

I think Leicester have an over reliance on certain players in the big match games despite having good strength in depth.

There is no decent back up fly half to Toby Flood. Staunton is a mediocre player. Twelvetrees for all his talent simply has not got the big game mentality yet (also was out of position), Ford is supposedly the next biggest thing in English rugby yet is not given any game time. Supposedly lack of size and physicality.

With no Manu Tuilagi, they simply don't have the same cutting edge in the centres. Smith is hard working but not in the same class.

Their pack seems to miss grunt without Deacon. Still they a very strong side so I can't understand.. Maybe it's mental? This Leicester side lacks that edge possibly?

Ulster are a very good side at home but they are no Munster,Leinster or Toulouse, not yet anyhow.

Leicester seem to have lost a bit of their aura/edge in the last two seasons. Still a decent side but the likes of Saracens,Quins and Northampton in the AP have shown they are no longer the force they once were.

The positive for Leicester is now they focus on regaining the AP crown with less distractions than certainly Saracens and possibly Quins.

Is English rugby really doing that badly in the HC?

The current top 2 in the AP are still in the competition and both are likely to qualify. One could get a home quarter, the other an away match.Both teams are capable of winning the competition, certainly with the final at Twickenham in my opinion.

Interesting little stats for you - Saracens in their HC head to head vs Toulouse are 2-0, vs Ulster are 3-1, 3-0 vs Ospreys but 0-2 vs Leinster and 0-3 vs Munster, 0-2 vs Clermont.

Of course I am biased but I do genuinely feel that if Sarries can beat Treviso and get a home quarter they could win the HC. So close in 07/08 - could this be our season?

Of course Leinster are favourites with Toulouse and Munster after them but who knows.....

The true group of death of last season has been revealed - Leinster,Clermont,Saracens and Racing Metro. 3 of those teams look likely to top their pools.

Compare that the other so called group of death - Munster,Ospreys,London Irish, Toulon.

be shocked

You've just said Leicester are a very strong side, but Ulster arent up there with the best in Europe - if thats the case you want to be very worried for Tigers getting hit for 34 points by a team that in your estimations is second tier.

It is so long since Ulster played Saracens that stat is meaningless to be honest.

I put my neck out - of the 9 teams, effectively left, 3 are not good enough to win it.

Harlequins, Cardiff and Edinburgh

It is so long since Ulster played Saracens that stat is meaningless to be honest.

I put my neck out - of the 9 teams, effectively left, 3 are not good enough to win it.

Harlequins, Cardiff and Edinburgh

beshocked wrote:
Their pack seems to miss grunt without Deacon. Still they a very strong side so I can't understand.. Maybe it's mental? This Leicester side lacks that edge possibly?

I think it is mental. The tigers are a side used to dominating up front and when they were bested in that area and lost the collisions they seemed to have nothing else in the locker. The most disappointing thing I'd imagine from a Tigers point of view is they seemed to throw in the towel and totally capitulate, which you don't expect from a proud club like Leicester.

By the time 'sweet chariot' reverberated around Ravenhill the Tigers looked like they wanted to be off the pitch. There was no leadership at all and experienced, quality international players like Castro, Cole, Youngs, Tuilagi, Chuter, Croft etc were found very wanting in the face of the unrelenting pressure from Ulster.

Artful Dodger I think Ulster are a very strong side at home. Probably one of the best in Europe at home. Yet to be convinced by their away form. If they beat Clermont then I will apologise.

Do you genuinely feel Ulster are as good as the likes of Munster,Leinster and Toulouse?

Leinster definitely not but we are getting to a point where they will match Munster or maybe pass them.

By the end of 2012-13 I honestly believe Ulster will be a stronger team, than Munster.

beshocked wrote:Do you genuinely feel Ulster are as good as the likes of Munster,Leinster and Toulouse?

In my opinion our squad is comparable to Munster's right now but until we win some silverware and match their consistancy then I'd keep the comparisons on ice. Leinster and Toulouse are on a different level to both Munster and Ulster right now.

Thanks roddersm for the explanation. Seems fair enough. Leicester aren't the first English side to fall to an Irish onslaught and won't be the last.

Not sure why in general English sides seem to struggle with the Irish ones. I don't believe in this salary cap excuses or even not prepared enough excuses.

Geoff it could well happen.

Btw it's just my personal opinion. I just feel Ulster need to pull off a big away victory to prove they are a force away from home as well as at your fortress.

It's all about consistency. If Ulster do pull off a win vs Clermont then you will have well and truly proved yourself to be a real European force. It's a real difference between a home quarter and a best runners up spot.

By hammering Leicester you have shown you're obviously a decent side but to be considered the one of the best in Europe (e.g. as good as Leinster,Munster and Toulouse) away scalps are needed to progress further.

There was no leadership at all and experienced, quality international players like Castro, Cole, Youngs, Tuilagi, Chuter, Croft etc were found very wanting in the face of the unrelenting pressure from Ulster. .

The leadership thing is becomming a real worry. No Deacon, Crane and Newby means that Tigers were down all three vice captains before the game started and the other one introduced for the RWC period (Chuter) was on the bench. The onus on youth is not helping and there are certain members of the squad that need to be replaced. The likes of Castro and Youngs actually played quite well (one horrendus pass from Youngs to Agulla aside). The issues lay in the lack of grunt going into the breakdown. A Mafi/Parling lock combination was far to light and Mafi looked lost for most of the game, in these big HEC games you've got to have a committed backrow but only 2 of Tigers 3 were consistently involved and they weren't the ones with the grunt. Waldrom was AWOL far too much.

I think the likes of Agulla, Alesana and Waldrom may well be packed off at the end of the season. Just not enough coming from them. Certainly some more pace and some more backrow power (Crane and Newby returning will help) should be on the shopping list.

There is no decent back up fly half to Toby Flood. Staunton is a mediocre player. Twelvetrees for all his talent simply has not got the big game mentality yet (also was out of position), Ford is supposedly the next biggest thing in English rugby yet is not given any game time. Supposedly lack of size and physicality.

With no Manu Tuilagi, they simply don't have the same cutting edge in the centres. Smith is hard working but not in the same class.

The centre thing is becomming a real concern. Billy was actually moving the ball well and playing nice and flat on the gainline but Allen looked uninterested and unable to place a kick and Smith is a willing work horse but really not a HEC level line breaker. I wonder if the club will be bold and sacrifice Allen as his contract is up and he'll want a chunky pay rise and use the marquee player rule with which to sign a top quality 10/12 to cover for Flood during the international periods and bring through Billy and Ford (who would have had no chance on Friday night). It used to be a tradition of sorts to have a top quality centre brought in to help develop the players around him and add a weapon to the backline Howard, Gibson and Mauger in recent times.

Oh and number 1 priority for Tigers, listen to the fans and SIGN A BLOODY DEFENCE COACH!

Sam my suggestion.

Sign up Dave Ellis.

Who would you sign for the 10/12 spot? Whose on the market?

Is Berrick Barnes available?

Shane Geraghty perhaps?

Other long shots are Jimmy Gopperth and Danny Cipriani.

formerly known as Sam wrote: The issues lay in the lack of grunt going into the breakdown. A Mafi/Parling lock combination was far to light and Mafi looked lost for most of the game, in these big HEC games you've got to have a committed backrow but only 2 of Tigers 3 were consistently involved and they weren't the ones with the grunt. Waldrom was AWOL far too much.

I think that was a big thing. The Tigers were totally out muscled and blown away in the contact. It summed the Tigers night up when Tom Croft ran into Paddy Wallace, the smallest player on the pitch and was picked up and driven into touch.

Tuilagi was anonomous, whereas Trimble as everywhere.. a blur of aggression. Ferris and Henry seemed so smash every ruck and hurled themselves into contact whereas the Tigers backrow went missing.

The scrum was driven backwards and quite frankly the Tigers couldn't deal with it.

Even at half time the Tigers were well in it but after the manner in which they were blown away in the 2nd half I'd imagine that there will be a lot of soul searching. I expected that whoever won the set piece would win the game but I couldn't believe the manner in which the Tigers were taken apart.

I think that was a big thing. The Tigers were totally out muscled and blown away in the contact. It summed the Tigers night up when Tom Croft ran into Paddy Wallace, the smallest player on the pitch and was picked up and driven into touch.

See what annoyed me about that was not that Croft went so easily into contact was that he was clearly drawing Wallace plus the outside defender in so he could bring Tuilagi back in on the angle. Nice idea but Tuilagi just stood there and watched, didn't even try to stop Wallace putting Croft into touch. The players just weren't playing for each other.

The scrum was driven backwards and quite frankly the Tigers couldn't deal with it

I feared for the scrum when Parling and Mafi were named in the second row, they're just not big enough to provide the go forward that the likes of Deacon and Slater do. Even so the scrum went one way and then the other (each comfortably winning their own ball) until Cole go himself stupidly sent off and then Ulster capitalised.

Sign up Dave Ellis.

Who would you sign for the 10/12 spot? Whose on the market?

Ellis would be good. To be honest I don't mind but someone has to sort that line speed out. Ulster weren't always breaking tackles but were always getting over the gainline because we stood there waiting for them on it. The had the momentum everytime and just hurled themselves at the line. They made at least a metre on every carry. When we carried into the them we made a metre or so in the carry but they were making tackle a couple of metres in front of the gainline.

As for the 10/12 I'd want someone experienced, doesn't need to be a big name. Ternblache was my MOM for the Ulster game and showed exactly what experience can do in terms of organisation and tactical awareness (something we were very short of). Not sure who I'd want to come in but I wouldn't be looking at a young gun that's for sure, someone with attacking organisation and a reliable boot though.

I could not believe how poor Tuilagi was.
He has the turning circle of an oil tanker and his kicking is simply awful.

Youngs did more harm than good - he totally lost it and clearly was getting on Poite's nerves.

I have to say I loved the exchange in the 1st half - the score was 13-7 I think.
Poite called Muller and Murphy to him to tell them to calm their sides down.

Poite. 'It is a good game no. We are all enjoying ourselves yes'
Muller: 'Yes'
Murphy: 'No not really'
With that Muller cracked up

I'm not going to feel sorry for Leicester. They'll be back I'm sure. For an away game in Ireland I'm sure they'd have wanted Deacon, Slater and Crane involved, plus Flood and Tuilagi at 10 and centre.

On this occassion they had done to them what they've done to many sides over the years. Clobber them.

Cockerill will address this. In the meantime, well done Ulster. Cracking result and cracking performance. Not been a great season for you guys in the Rabo12 so you needed something like this to pick up your season.

Geoff that was in the second half after Poite gave, what looked to us Tigers fans, to be a terrible decision with Best off his feet killing a break from Croft from a Ben Youngs tap penalty in our half. Youngs lost his cool when really he should have been focussing on Best losing some skin on his back and thighs.

The ref said he was enjoying the game and I thought Murphy said "speak for yourself". Think Tigers were much further down by that point and were not at all happy with Poite though they were hardly helping themselves.

Youngs did more harm than good

Every decent attack we had, he was at the centre of starting. He created the try rather brilliantly picking off Trimble as he came out the line. He is young and raw though and it's games like that when I wish Ellis hadn't retired. The Ulster boys would have not got away with lying over the ball, well the ref might not have pinged them but they'd have needed skin grafts after the game.

Thanks for the clarification.

My point about Youngs is he annoyed Poite no end and lost all focus.

All Ulster did was play the ref, Leicester didn't. If you see a referee is allowing something keep doing it - that is plain common sense. Leicester were also lying on the ball and not being pinged, although not as much.

The key difference was Ulster's intensity at the breakdown - Henry tackled everything that moved and many things that didn't.
England teams generally seem to not fully commit to the breakdown and they are suffering for it.

Geoff,

you used a selected statsitical analysis of the front five to prove that Ulster rested players less than Leicester, but an alternative analysis of the back row would show that Ulster started 5 from 9 in the last three games as opposed to Tigers 8 out of 9. Does this prove that your assertion is garbage?

I wonder what an analysis of the whole starting XV would show? Is there a difference in your mind to resting players as opposed to injury enforced changes?

What would a brief look at Ulster's team against Leinster show? Practically the whole of the 1st XV weren't selected for what would appear to be an important game against title contenders in the league.


As far as Irish rugby wealth goes, you know that IRFU published accounts show an expenditure of around £24m on professional players and management, including the international team. I don't believe that there is a direct comparison between independent club expendture and the branch expenditure of IRFU. However, those numbers don't seem to really stack up to the Ulster CEO's reported assertion that Ireland's three major provinces are all spending at or about the English salary cap, unless Ireland has some extremely well remunerated kitmen.


I have absolutely no doubt that Irish Rugby is the best run in the NH, nor that Ulster fully deserved their victory over Leicester, but it seems strange that you are denying the excellent player management that Irish rugby has engineered for itself, and the wealth that it creates and uses well. It is an example for others to follow. Unfortunately, in the context of this thread, it is one that English rugby is unable to follow at the moment.

All Ulster did was play the ref, Leicester didn't.

Been one of our downfalls over the last couple of years. Salvi coming in has helped this as under Cockerill he has flourished but the pack is still not savvy or aggressive enough.

Henry tackled everything that moved and many things that didn't.

Did make me chuckle when Slater clocked him for tackling him off the ball. Really annoying that there was a lack of that aggression earlier in the game. Why was it left to the 22 year old replacement second row to bring the niggle and the fight to proceedings. Ulster showed plenty of aggression and passion and Tigers too little.

I agree that Youngs talks too much when he's annoyed. He should be getting aggressive and if necessary old school if the ref refuses to do what he wants.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Geoff,

you used a selected statsitical analysis of the front five to prove that Ulster rested players less than Leicester, but an alternative analysis of the back row would show that Ulster started 5 from 9 in the last three games as opposed to Tigers 8 out of 9. Does this prove that your assertion is garbage?

Nope it reinforces it as it confirms that the original premise that Ulster rested players and Leicester didn't meant that Ulster had the fresher team.

Accepting you figures as fact we end up with 13 each from 25 starts - no difference.
I used the front five as a sample for 2 reason:

Time taken to compile and the fact that phyiscally it is the front five who take the biggest pounding.

The forwards are the key area in terms of needing rests and in that area the claim Leicester put out their top players week in week out and Ulster didn't is rubbish. (I have not checked the backs but have no reason to believe it would be any different).

In fact I would gladly take it further back and include the 2 HC before that as I know that for Ulster the figures would be 15 starts from 16 so I very much doubt Leicester can improve on that.

Bottom line Ulster have not rested players to target this match whilst Leicester have had to play their first XV every week - this claim is completely bogus

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I agree that Youngs talks too much when he's annoyed. He should be getting aggressive and if necessary old school if the ref refuses to do what he wants.

Youngs...old school? Hmmm. If you mean what I think you mean, I think Young's old school attempt would rebound tenfold (certainly in the game concerned with the Ulster boys in the mood they were in). It's his lack of old school ability that actually frustrates him and causes him to heat up above correct operating temperatures.

I say all that only if I'm correct in understanding what you mean by 'old school'.

Ulster have hardly rotated at all with the likes of Henry, Cave, Wannenburg, Tuohy, IHumph etc. playing nearly every game.

In fact some of us, myself included were getting frustrated at the lack of rotatation and squad utilisation.

Obviously the Irish internationals: Ferris, Best, Trimble, Wallace and Court have been managed under the player welfare program but apart from this and injuries there has been very little rotation.

It's his lack of old school ability that actually frustrates him and causes him to heat up above correct operating temperatures.

It's that area he needs to work on. He's got the natural ability in spades but when the opposition are taking advantage of the ref and the word in the ear isn't working then the scrum half needs to move the hands, legs and backs that are on the ball. Drag them out, a little stand on the offending implement (not a stamp) anything to remind the player they shouldn't be there and that you won't let them stay there. At the minute Tigers are too nice at the breakdown 1-15 unless the bruisers Crane and Deacon are playing and a team can't rely on them to police the breakdown.

In fact some of us, myself included were getting frustrated at the lack of rotatation and squad utilisation.

Tigers attempted some rotation as the fixture schedule was something like 3 games in 10 days over Christmas and the new year. It didn't help in the slightest as we picked up injuries to three key players, Skivington and a knock to Chuter. Maybe it was best Ulster didn't.

Ulster are very underated - 3 bp wins on the trot- aren't they former HC winners ?

I dont think they've lost at home in the HC for years

Geoff,

ignoring statistics, which can be bent many ways, I believe that Ulster gave themselves the best preparation for the HC game in the three preceding Rabo fixtures. Game 1 - virtually all 1st teamers rested. Game 2 - 1st teamers against a shadow Munster team (a relatively easy game). Game 3 - 1st teamers against a fairly strong Edinburgh side (a pretty tough game). 3 games ramping up the intensity up to the "big game"

It's certainly to Ulster's credit that they are able to manage the squad like that. You seem to take issue with the term "resting" players - fair enough, but it does seem that the Ulster players have been better managed, physically (and probably mentally), in the build up to last Friday night than the Leicester players.

Your further contention in an earlier post:

[/quote]...but hey lets not let the facts get in the way of the myth that Pro12 rest players and the Aviva doesn't [/quote]

is a little disingenuous. Certainly AP teams do rotate players when they can (and extensively in the LV), but the extent of resting in the Rabo is to a different degree, as evinced by Ulster's shadow team against Leinster, Munster's shadow team against Ulster, and the complete lack of Scottish internationals in the Glasburgh teams towards the end of last season.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Geoff,

ignoring statistics, which can be bent many ways, I believe that Ulster gave themselves the best preparation for the HC game in the three preceding Rabo fixtures. Game 1 - virtually all 1st teamers rested. Game 2 - 1st teamers against a shadow Munster team (a relatively easy game). Game 3 - 1st teamers against a fairly strong Edinburgh side (a pretty tough game). 3 games ramping up the intensity up to the "big game"

It's certainly to Ulster's credit that they are able to manage the squad like that. You seem to take issue with the term "resting" players - fair enough, but it does seem that the Ulster players have been better managed, physically (and probably mentally), in the build up to last Friday night than the Leicester players.

Your further contention in an earlier post:

...but hey lets not let the facts get in the way of the myth that Pro12 rest players and the Aviva doesn't

is a little disingenuous. Certainly AP teams do rotate players when they can (and extensively in the LV), but the extent of resting in the Rabo is to a different degree, as evinced by Ulster's shadow team against Leinster, Munster's shadow team against Ulster, and the complete lack of Scottish internationals in the Glasburgh teams towards the end of last season.

Not really, a mix of 1st-teamers and back-up players from Embra

So what you are saying is Ulster are a better managed side than Leicester and they play smarter in how they rota players

Wouldn't disagree with that.

What the stats do show, and this is important, is that over this period the Aviva side, Leicester, rotated their players as much as the Prop 12 side, Ulster.

This is the norm not an isolated incident, inspite of English protestations to the contrary.

At Ulster we actually go in for far less rotation than most Aviva team, not least because we have a smaller squad.
We do rest Irish internationals for a handful of games but that is about it.
The Leinster game was a one off brought about by a crazy fixture list, dictated to us by the TV companies.

roddersm wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Their pack seems to miss grunt without Deacon. Still they a very strong side so I can't understand.. Maybe it's mental? This Leicester side lacks that edge possibly?

I think it is mental. The tigers are a side used to dominating up front and when they were bested in that area and lost the collisions they seemed to have nothing else in the locker. The most disappointing thing I'd imagine from a Tigers point of view is they seemed to throw in the towel and totally capitulate, which you don't expect from a proud club like Leicester.

By the time 'sweet chariot' reverberated around Ravenhill the Tigers looked like they wanted to be off the pitch. There was no leadership at all and experienced, quality international players like Castro, Cole, Youngs, Tuilagi, Chuter, Croft etc were found very wanting in the face of the unrelenting pressure from Ulster.

Rodders what is bizarre about this game is that Ulster won by a landslide, but also made more tackles.

Ulster 101/6 Tackles made/missed

Leicester 69/13 Tackles made/missed

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/match/144327.html

Not sure how these stats are actually counted, but, Leicester look like they didnt even try to tackle Ulster... THeir defensive stats are very strange.

geoff998rugby wrote:So what you are saying is Ulster are a better managed side than Leicester and they play smarter in how they rota players

Wouldn't disagree with that.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, but with the proviso that Leicester are constrained by the demands of the AP and, in this instance, injuries and, as with Ulster, ridiculously close fixtures over Xmas.

Aslong,
fair enough, but the Edinburgh team was still fairly strong opposition for Ulster? Btw, you're not suggesting that a Rabo team rested players ahead of an HC game, are you?

The fact remains that every side that fights for a HC knows what they must do to be in the best position to win it (Leicester more than most with its two wins and three runner-ups).

So, no excuses in that department - every side knows how tough it is and what they must do to put themselves as much in contention as possible.

Thereafter, the ball, so to speak, is in the hands of respective coaches. They decide what teams to call on for Aviva/Pro12 and what players they require for a real assault on HC. Nobody forces their hand, they decide - and then, they must live with the decisions.

Leicester knows what it wants from the year and have organised their squad accordingly. If they wanted both Aviva and HC, so be it. They've made a decision to keep their best players on the field for longer (if indeed that's the case; I'm not a stats junkie) But if they have stretched their best players then perhaps a wiser move would have been to prioritise one competition over the other - like French sides tend to do. Not telling them their job or their aspirations but Leicester again more than most should know the score. There was a hint in Cockerill's pre-match comments that he probably expected an easier game than he got. He shouldn't have. He should know HC history and repect it.

Anyway, don't blame Ulster for Leicester coaching decision but also, when I said 'nobody forces their hand' - well, in Ireland, the IRFU actually do. They sometimes have a big say in what players appear on any given day for Provinces. So if it comes to having one hand tied behind you, Irish Provinces could quite readily argue that they have enough of their own worries without worrying about the opposition's pressures too.

Please enlighten me here - why are Leicester "constrained" by the demands of the AP, yet Ulster aren't when it comes to the Pro 12? Really, maybe I am missing something obvious here, but what is the difference?

Sounds like a rubbish excuse to me.

maestag,

I wonder what the stats looked like at half time.

It did look like the Tigers kind of gave up fairly early in the second half which might explain their lack of tackles?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:So what you are saying is Ulster are a better managed side than Leicester and they play smarter in how they rota players

Wouldn't disagree with that.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, but with the proviso that Leicester are constrained by the demands of the AP and, in this instance, injuries and, as with Ulster, ridiculously close fixtures over Xmas.

Aslong,
fair enough, but the Edinburgh team was still fairly strong opposition for Ulster? Btw, you're not suggesting that a Rabo team rested players ahead of an HC game, are you?

DLO, definitely am, bud - Bradley put his first team out for the first Christmas Rabo fixture (first leg of 1872 Cup vs Glasgow), a B team out for the next (leg 2 of the 1872), and a mixed bag for the third and last game vs Ulster. With Edinburgh lying low in the league, reckon Bradley's future relies on an HEC qf spot

Rory,

with the need to finish ahead of 6 other teams to qualify for HC, Tigers would be unable to rest teh entire first team Squad for an AP match as Ulster did over Christmas.

However it is a pointless debate, as Tigers were also a distant second best to Clermont over two legs.

A little word of praise for a Leicester play - Castro.

After the match the usual bunch of enthusiastic kids looking for autographs.
The rest of the Leicester team couldn't wait to get away and ignored them but Castro stayed and signed and spoke to plenty. He shook hands and gave a couple of yongster a big grin and made many delighted.
I also understand he acknowledged the Terrace and gave someone in the crowd his shirt

Well done that man

LondonTiger wrote:Rory,

with the need to finish ahead of 6 other teams to qualify for HC, Tigers would be unable to rest teh entire first team Squad for an AP match as Ulster did over Christmas.

Have you not being reading this thread, Ulster rested no more players than Leicester over the Christmas period.
Overall our forwards that played this weekend played as much game time as the Leicester forwards did

geoff998rugby wrote:A little word of praise for a Leicester play - Castro.

After the match the usual bunch of enthusiastic kids looking for autographs.
The rest of the Leicester team couldn't wait to get away and ignored them but Castro stayed and signed and spoke to plenty. He shook hands and gave a couple of yongster a big grin and made many delighted.
I also understand he acknowledged the Terrace and gave someone in the crowd his shirt

Well done that man

I also loved his wry smirk during a scrum when I actually think it was he who muttered the correction to Poite and told him it was called 'shoulder' not...well, whatever it was Poite said: 'shooder' or something like that. But even if it wasn't him who did the correction it was Castro's expression I laughed at: "It's tough enough of a game without us having to do your job too."

How often are the Jeff players asked to play against 2 of the top league teams in 4 days?

That was a great moment indeed Secret.

And, how much self control did Murphy exhibit when Poite suggested that he was enjoying the match?

A little word of praise for a Leicester play - Castro.

After the match the usual bunch of enthusiastic kids looking for autographs.
The rest of the Leicester team couldn't wait to get away and ignored them but Castro stayed and signed and spoke to plenty. He shook hands and gave a couple of yongster a big grin and made many delighted.
I also understand he acknowledged the Terrace and gave someone in the crowd his shirt

Well done that man

There is a good reason Castro is beloved by the Tigers fans. If you go on the offy site there are loads of stories of him stopping to sign autographs or pose for pictures pretty much anywhere there is a Tigers fan. He wasn't fit to play against Wasps but spent a good 15 minutes before the game standing at the foot of the CAT stand signing autographs and having his picture taken with all the kids and some of the parents. A good ambassador for the sport.

And, how much self control did Murphy exhibit when Poite suggested that he was enjoying the match?.

Considerably more than I did I should think. That penalty and comment did not go down well in my house.

The penalty was more than fair.

There could have been a card.

MrsP wrote:That was a great moment indeed Secret.

And, how much self control did Murphy exhibit when Poite suggested that he was enjoying the match?

I really enjoyed that you could hear all the extra chat in the ref's mike. Sometimes it can be hard to hear the player's responses to the refs but the organisers should really help that along. It was funny to read Murphy's mind as he kept chatting with Poite. When he was told to keep his players calm he nodded and accepted gracefully and then tried to bring up a rule point that was troubling him, Poite just waved him away (mostly because he didn't understand a word Geordan was saying). I wasn't poor Geordan's night!

The penalty was more than fair.

There could have been a card..

If it's the one I think it is then it was from the tapped penalty with Croft breaking up the wing. Dragged down by his collar and then two Ulster players straight off their feet. Given as holding on despite Ulster not bothering to try and play the ball hence Youngs completely losing his temper with Poite.

Geoff et al,

I agree that it was sensible to rest the entire team - just as it was vital that Leicester rotated players through due to the workload. I am not making excuses - Leicester were not as good as Ulster.

Over the course of a full season, England internationals play more matches than Irish (I will look up the article - but it was something published by the IRFU). This is in part because qualification for the HC is "harder". We also see more matches with 1st team v Second team - as regions/provinces take it in turns to rest the big guys.

It is however a choice that the English clubs make to overplay their internationals, and one that perhaps backfired for Saints last season though I prefer to credit Tigers and Leinster for good play a sthey ended Saint's domestic and European seasons.

Sometimes the players responses would not be suitable for broadcast pre-watershed.

I suspect sky were quite glad we didn't all get to hear what Dan Cole said to earn his wee rest!

I think it was the one where Tuilgi tried to remove Trimble's head and Murphy got a bang in the process, no?

That's the one I was talking about anyway.

I suspect sky were quite glad we didn't all get to hear what Dan Cole said to earn his wee rest!.

I'm sure the term idiotic should be used in that sentence somewhere. There wasn't even a decision to question at the time.

I think it was the one where Tuilgi tried to remove Trimble's head and Murphy got a bang in the process, no?

Could have been, that happened earlier but in the same area of the pitch (the talking to was def in front of the dug outs for both). I think it's a bit rich that the Ulster fans and the coach on the sideline were screaming for a card when Trimble was falling into the tackle. High tackle it was but would have been a very harsh card. The golden boy of Ulster Mr Ferris nearly removing Allen's head when Ferris was the last covering defender in the first half however brought not even the obvious penalty. That was a full shoulder to the head and arm around the throat job to prevent a try as well.

I wish they'd 'watershed' my house sometimes when a passionate game is on. But it's funny that people who are watching a sport they are interested in, that they love, that they are passionate about...that those same people (for only they would be wathcing) would find the time to ring into the broadcaster and complain about inappropriate language heard on the breeze perhaps four or five time per sweaty, physical game.

Let the Players Speak - that's my new crusade