Leicester (and English Rugby?) just not good enough.

First topic message reminder :

Last night was my work Christmas Party (yes I know 3 weeks late) which meant I was saved the pain of watching that thrashing. However huge congratulations to Ulster - such a dominant scoreline can only ever be attributed to one team being much better than the other.

Tigers European campaign this season has been indicative of the abilities of the team. We have had tight wins at home against the two decent teams in teh pool, and suffered heavy defeats in the reverse fixtures. Tigers were comprehensively outplayed by Clermont in the away leg and I can only assume the same was true last night. We are obviously only the third best team in the group - so right now we are a long way away from being a team that can challenge in Europe.

Is it fair to suggest that the ability of the English teams is and English players is at a low ebb right now? After all Tigers are only 4th in the table and the teams are so close that effectively that counts as mid table. However, as Portnoy keeps pointing out, a table based on the 7 league matches since the World Cup would see Leicester at the top. This suggests that tigers are still one of the best teams in the AP - yet are a long way from being truly competitive in Europe. So yes I think it is fair to say that the standard of teh AP is not great right now.

How about English players - after all Quins are still doing well in Europe with a largely (excl Nick Evans) english team. that is true - yet tigers still have 11 players in the EPS/Saxons squads. Yet those players - among the elite of English players - are not good enough to compete with the good teams in Europe.

Perhaps I am being overly pessimistic - but right now things look very bleak for club and country.

Didnt SCW once say that Ireland and France should probably breakaway from the 6 nations and Heineken cup and join the Tri Nations

One of my best commentary moments of the year was when a ref (no idea of the match) spoke to the touch judge after an altercation and asked if he should issue a card. The touch replied 'No just give them a good Bo*****ing'

The commentator went all prim and proper and said something along the lines of 'We are sorry for what you have just heard and we can only apologise'

Made me laugh

I couldn't disagree with you Sam. I remember the Ferris one and I think he got away with it because he tackled him from behind and they seem to penalise that less.

Wouldn't have complained if he had got a penalty.

The Tuilagi one was worse though.

The Tuilagi one was worse though.

I think we'll have to disagree on that one.

I thought Tuilagi's was significantly worse as well, it was more of a choke hold than a high tackle, Murphy said it wasnt intentional - I find that somewhat doubtful.

Seeing as Trimble almost fell into it (the tackle is made as Trimble ducks his head to try and drive past) I'd say it probably wouldn't have been given had not the Ulster coach practically cried on the touchline. Even the reknowned anti-Tigers Sky panel called the decision harsh. A shoulder to the back of the head and fore arm round the throat from Ferris denied Allen a good shot at a try and should have been an easy yellow, by far the worst tackle of the match. No that the try would have made much difference given the second half but it would have been nice to get into double figures.

Sam,

You must have been listening to a different commentary than I was. They agreed it was high and a penalty but no swinging arm. They said it would not have got their blood pressure up.

You were right about the timing of the "I think you enjoy too!" chat from Pointe though. It was after Youngs wee tantrum.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about the worst tackle.

We'll just have to agree to disagree about the worst tackle.

I thought we might.

Yes, I thought Poite had his little word after Youngs was incensed by his decision. I was unimpressed by it as well, almost as unimpressed by the lack of players racing up in support of Croft's break. The man has excellent hands get in position for an offload or at least smash the breakdown!

Just read on another thread.

Hope the head is feeling better Sam.

The headache has gone as of this morning but the bruising is still evident. Cheers. A timely reminder that fly halfs aren't meant to be tackling.

Make sure and be sensible about when you return.

You only get one noggin and you need to take care of it's contents.

Have you seen the IRB guidelines for returning to play after concussion?

Don't they suggest a two week rest unless a cognetive function test shows a high enough score?

I've been taking it easy and will skip contact training this week, see how I feel ahead of the weekend.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Don't they suggest a two week rest unless a cognetive function test shows a high enough score?

I've been taking it easy and will skip contact training this week, see how I feel ahead of the weekend.

Yep two weeks off is the norm, a lot of coaches try to ignore it though, especially at lower levels.

Sam can Leicester drop in to the Amlin? And if so would they fancy an attempt at it?

When you return depends first on whether or not the process is being supervised by a doctor. if it is then there are stages you have to pass with no symptoms for at least 24 hours after each one.

If the process is not being supervised then it is a MANDATORY 3 weeks.

http://www.irbplayerwelfare.com/?documentid=3

Please be sensible. It really is not worth the risk.

You have inspired an article!

https://www.606v2.com/t22009-advice-on-when-to-return-to-play-after-a-concussion

Thanks for the info Mrs P. I'm doing pretty well and haven't missed work, the on pitch issues related to a smashing headache and blurred vision. The vision is back to normal and was as of Saturday night. The headache is gone so I am on the mend.

Sam can Leicester drop in to the Amlin? And if so would they fancy an attempt at it?.

Not looked at the points/qualification criteria but it would probably be unlikely as I can't see us getting a bonus point at the weekend. The Amlin would be taken seriously I'd have thought though Tigers might be inclined to sacrifice in favour of the league if necessary.

Good to hear you're feeling better, I had a similar one when I was kneed in the temple in a ruck (by my own side). Seeing as it was during a drubbing I was quite happy to come off after that...

I only asked about the Amlin as you do seem to be going well in the prem, where I get the feeling more then anything you have a lot of other teams numbers. Even if you're not winning well, you're not losing games. So I was contemplating a massively unlikely double and you guys winning both comps!

How amusing would that be?!

If we beat Clermont denying them an LBP and Tigers get a TBP against Aironi they could make the Amlin if other results went their way too.

If Ulster win Tigers could well be in the Amlin as the 2nd team in the Leinster group will not be on more than 15 points, unless Glasgow score 4 tries at Bath.

A Munster win at Saints would also, probably, ensure a 2nd team on no more than 15 points.

Bottom line is 17 points is enough - however a Clermont losing bonus point would ensure they are above Leicester.
I would expect a weak Aironi side to turn up.

I only asked about the Amlin as you do seem to be going well in the prem, where I get the feeling more then anything you have a lot of other teams numbers. Even if you're not winning well, you're not losing games. So I was contemplating a massively unlikely double and you guys winning both comps!

Hmm the chance of the double would be nice, we nearly had the treble a few years ago before the damn Pests ruined it. I think no European action might actually help us as it will mean that the players get some rest ahead of the AP run in. There's a lot the team needs to do to improve as I'd back Tigers to win home and away against every side in the AP except Sarries. Got to improve and get the players fit so that we can get revenge for last seasons final.

Having said all that I'm hoping the trouncing in the second half by Ulster will make Cockerill experiment with the side a little. Andy Forsyth is back in action again following injury and Alex Lewington scored a hattrick for the A Team against Leeds with Niall Morris grabbing a brace. Wouldn't mind them seeing a bit more action during the 6N as they'd offer something different to the backline.

Sam, good to hear Niall Morris is being mentioned over there. You got him from Leinster and the few games he played last year I was impressed with his attitude and workrate.

The fear should be that the trouncing has an opposite effect on Cockers, and he gets reluctant to bring in youth instead relying on a core group of veterans to weather through these tough times for the club. In the medium term that will be the biggest threat as the old veterans will wear out quicker (getting injured or retiring) and the youngsters in the wings will then have to come into a crocked side with little top team experience and have to deliver on the spot.

Well considering it was the veteran backs (in the main) that took the hammering at Ulster I'd hope he'd rest them and see what some of the younger options can provide. I'd like to see a back three of Lewington, Morris and Forsyth (FB), Forsyth played there for Notts last year and has good range on his left boot. Morris was the clubs top scorer and the start of the season, didn't do anything flashy but finished well and did his job whilst Lewington has been scoring for Notts and the A Team in a similar fashion both have good all round football skills. Might as well shove them out against Arioni and for a game or two in the Low Value Cup, though Forsyth will probably play centre for that.

Sooner or later Cockerill will have to test some of the alternative back three options as it looks increasingly like Agulla and Alesana will leave at the end of the season. Geordan isn't getting any younger either.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Well considering it was the veteran backs (in the main) that took the hammering at Ulster I'd hope he'd rest them and see what some of the younger options can provide. I'd like to see a back three of Lewington, Morris and Forsyth (FB), Forsyth played there for Notts last year and has good range on his left boot. Morris was the clubs top scorer and the start of the season, didn't do anything flashy but finished well and did his job whilst Lewington has been scoring for Notts and the A Team in a similar fashion both have good all round football skills. Might as well shove them out against Arioni and for a game or two in the Low Value Cup, though Forsyth will probably play centre for that.

Sooner or later Cockerill will have to test some of the alternative back three options as it looks increasingly like Agulla and Alesana will leave at the end of the season. Geordan isn't getting any younger either.

I think youre being a tad unrelaistic if you think a back 3 of Morriss, Forsyth and Lewington would have fared any better against Ulster, especially as Tigers realk problems game form losing the bully battle in the forwards. I dont think thats what youre saying though is it. I certainly agree that Morriss might be worth a run over Agulla, who offers very little in terms of attacking threat ( I know people say hes been brilliant this season but I just hate him irrationally..there I said it!) Sure Murphy needs replacing but its not like Cockerill hant been gropoming players over the last few years ( Hamilton, Agulla, Morris, theother Irish lad who went back home forgot his name, then Tait) to be a wing/fullback. What hes saying is it would be abel to sign a ready made class act so he could rest/drop Murphy or equivelant in any position.
Since Varndell Tigers have not had an out and out try scoring threat on the wings, and at this level they miss that. I really hope this Benjamin signing is real and that he can do that job.
Tuillagi (M) can run through players in the middle of the park and cause devastation against anyone, they missed those line breaks which Ulster seemed to do with no rpobelms. With only really Waldrom in the forwards who does that ( is Brits available? we could dream) Tigers are coming unstuck against solid sides who dont give them space and easy ball.
The players Peter Toms bemoaned missing ...Newby, Manu, Deacon, Crane would all have offered scrap in a physical game. It wasnt about flashy young backs being left in the reserves.


I notice Cockerills been defending his job today saying " well if they sack someone with my record who would be left to take it over?"
Dean Richards?

I think youre being a tad unrelaistic if you think a back 3 of Morriss, Forsyth and Lewington would have fared any better against Ulster

I was hoping more that they'd get a run against Arioni and be given a chance to develop as the current back three aren't working and are certainly not getting any younger. I was thinking of future team development not might have beens. The back three is a cause for concern because a) it lacks pace and b) we regularly get done over in the tactical kicking exchange.

If you want to disect why we lost to Ulster then you are right the pack is the place to start but I was talking in generalities. The pack has years left in it, even Deacon is only 30. The back three is aging more quickly.

I notice Cockerills been defending his job today saying " well if they sack someone with my record who would be left to take it over?"
Dean Richards?

I think those bridges were burnt a long time ago. I've heard rumours Vern Cotter (sp?) the Clermont Coach may be leaving in the summer...

Peter seabiscuit wheeler Brits is indeed out of contract at the end of the season. Really unsure what's going to happen with him.

Would be a little ironic if he signed for Leicester though.

I think you do have a weakness at hooker.

By the way what's happening with Kitchener?

I personally think it's the senior players not taking the proper responsibilty. The likes of Murphy and Castrogiovanni should be marshalling the troops.

I thought Youngs was the up and coming hope at hooker for the tigers (i appreciate he's injured at the mo)

Beschocked...Brits is real quality...but how far away from being ready is George..if he is backup to Smit?

Actually good point....geordie falcon....Leicester could look at Jamie George....

It will be difficult to hold onto both Brits and George because obviously Smit is there too. Saracens have Spurling and Allen too so it's hardly an area of weakness.

I wouldn't like to lose either player but with quality hookers in high demand....

I am sure if the price is right.

Would you say George is ready to become a starting hooker at a top side?

Yes Geordiefalcon I do. He needs more gametime. As nice as must be to learn from Brits and Smit to really develop he'll need to play more games.

I am sure plenty of sides would at least consider him for their squads.

I know we would....

beshocked wrote:Actually good point....geordie falcon....Leicester could look at Jamie George....

It will be difficult to hold onto both Brits and George because obviously Smit is there too. Saracens have Spurling and Allen too so it's hardly an area of weakness.

I wouldn't like to lose either player but with quality hookers in high demand....

I am sure if the price is right.

Tell you what, beshocked, we'll take Spurling off your hands down at Exe - we're nice like that!

By the way what's happening with Kitchener?

Developing nicely. Impressed over the Christmas period when paired with Ed Slater. Since both in their early 20s that could be a good future partnership, hoping for more outings over the next couple of weeks.

I think you do have a weakness at hooker

Chuter is a bit over the hill, Hawkins is alright but not the best (a little under powered for a Tigers hooker) and Youngs is out with a serious back injury. We could do with adding to the hooking options in the summer that is for sure though Cockers seems to prefer Youngs as the long term solution (understandably as well).

The likes of Murphy and Castrogiovanni should be marshalling the troops..

Castro barely speaks English. We need one of Deacon, Crane or Newby back. They are the pack leaders.

Is it just me or does it look like Ben Youngs has put on some excess wieght? He definitely looks bulkier then I remember...

He's always been a little chunky, though it seems to fluctuate and doesn't seem to effect his pace. Apparently he likes his sweets and burgers. There was a funny picture taken by one of the Tigers players over in NZ which showed him buying sweets with a look of fear on his face when he saw the camera. The caption "please, don't tell Johnno" wasn't as funny as the image of Cole sliding out the door in the back ground of the picutre hefty bag in hand.

I only mentioned the Brits thing as a joke but he would be a phenomenal signingf or Tigers, if unrealistic under the cap ( Cockerills point?) Hawkins and Youngs are the guys we have for when someone finaly tells Chuuter to retire. Neither is looking likley to be top class anytime soon. I was a huge fan of Kayser, who we lost back to France along with Dupuy ...you could blame the salary cap again there.

The Dean Richards thing was also a joke, I know theres zero chance of him ever coming back to Tigers. The point was that he was sacked with an arguably even better record than Cockerills. If he thinks hes immune he could be in for a nasty shock. The tIgers board want success in Europe, getting mullered by a mid table Robocop side ( not just beaten but spanked) wont go down well. Theres a faction that didnt even want him in the job in the first place.

There are excuses and reasons for Tigers lack of success and everyone does have to face up to the reality, English sides are off the pace in Europe. To at least make a fist of it is expected for Tigers though, they look set to flop out without even being able to blame cheating this time. The amount of stick Johnson took for Englands world cup I dont think its unreasoanble that Cockerill should loose some of his credit for this.

Hawkins and Youngs are the guys we have for when someone finaly tells Chuuter to retire

Chuter has a contract for another season after this one. I'd presume he'd retire then. I wonder if Hawkins will be ditched this summer and Tigers will use the marquee option to bring in a more acceptable hooker solution? Tom Youngs is clearly the long term answer in Cockers eyes.

http://dementedmole.com/2012/01/18/dirty-leedsyour-boys-took-a-hell-of-a-beating/

Good analysis of Leicester here...

So Peter you're expecting Cockerill to get the boot then?

I think it would be best for the club if he did go, Tigers have a huge impact on English rugby and a strong England needs a strong Tigers team (until Harlequins can take over that is).

Tigers should be in the finals for any comp they take part in, to not even make play offs is not an option and I don't think there's any excuse for that.

And I can not fid fault with that factual and thought provoking article by DementedMole.

yappysnap wrote:And I can not fid fault with that factual and thought provoking article by DementedMole.

It made me giggle, but not, I expect, in the way the author intended.