England EPS - where they learnt the game.

I have no idea where this is going, but could be interesting to see where the players that Lancaster have selected were developed. I will work my way through the sides in the order they currently lie in the AP, first number is how many players came through that clubs youth system, number in brackets is how many are in the squad. I will include the 4 players who have been temporarily promoted from the Saxons.

Harlequins: 4 (4) - Marler, Robshaw, Turner-Hall, Brown
Saracens: 2 (7) - Farrell, Goode
Northampton: 1 (8) - Lawes
Leicester: 5 (7) - Cole, Deacon, Croft, Youngs, Tuilagi
London Irish: 1 (1) - Corbisiero
Exeter: 0 (0)
Sale: 2 (0) - Hodgson, Foden
Gloucester: 3 (2) - Attwood, Sharples, Trinder
Worcester: 2 (0) - Hartley (debateable - could argue NZ and Saints will claim) Wood
Bath: 2 (3) - Stevens, Mears
Wasps: 2 (2) - Webber, Simpson
Newcastle: 5 (0) - Wilson, Parling, Dowson, Dickson, Flood

Non-AP
South Africa: 2 - Botha, Barritt
Leeds: 2 - Clark, Palmer
Scarlets: 1 - Morgan
Rotherham: 1 - Strettle
Wigan RL: 1 - Ashton


As with all stats you can then read into it what you want, but having now done this exercise - what stands out for me is:

• Sarries and Saints seem to have been pretty canny in recruiting English talent

• Northern clubs have seen a large level of player drain, developing 10 of the players but retaining none

I think Bristol would lay claim to Attwood?

That is quite interesting, looking at those stats, there is a clear drain between the richer more successful clubs, Saints and Sarries in particular, and the less successful ones. Particularly galling for Newcastle fans I would think...

LondonTiger wrote:I have no idea where this is going, but could be interesting to see where the players that Lancaster have selected were developed. I will work my way through the sides in the order they currently lie in the AP, first number is how many players came through that clubs youth system, number in brackets is how many are in the squad. I will include the 4 players who have been temporarily promoted from the Saxons.

Harlequins: 4 (4) - Marler, Robshaw, Turner-Hall, Brown
Saracens: 2 (7) - Farrell, Goode
Northampton: 1 (8) - Lawes
Leicester: 5 (7) - Cole, Deacon, Croft, Youngs, Tuilagi
London Irish: 1 (1) - Corbisiero
Exeter: 0 (0)
Sale: 2 (0) - Hodgson, Foden
Gloucester: 3 (2) - Attwood, Sharples, Trinder
Worcester: 2 (0) - Hartley (debateable - could argue NZ and Saints will claim) Wood
Bath: 2 (3) - Stevens, Mears
Wasps: 2 (2) - Webber, Simpson
Newcastle: 5 (0) - Wilson, Parling, Dowson, Dickson, Flood

Non-AP
South Africa: 2 - Botha, Barritt
Leeds: 2 - Clark, Palmer
Scarlets: 1 - Morgan
Rotherham: 1 - Strettle
Wigan RL: 1 - Ashton


As with all stats you can then read into it what you want, but having now done this exercise - what stands out for me is:

• Sarries and Saints seem to have been pretty canny in recruiting English talent

• Northern clubs have seen a large level of player drain, developing 10 of the players but retaining none

Give us time and we'll start contributing, I promise

In considering this information I think we also need to look at how much players' current clubs might have brought them on. Were those players burgeoning stars, or does the new club deserve recognition for maximising something undeveloped?

Now that Tait has been booted up the jacksie....we should hopefully see a few more Falcons academy players coming through....

Just shows despite what people say about us...Newcastle IS important to English rugby....

I guess the way to assess that would be where players were when they made their England debuts or were first selected for the EPS.

From recollection, that would mean Northampton would claim some credit for Ashton, Foden (turning him into a FB), Hartley, Clark.

Similarly, Sarries deserve some of the credit for Botha, who iirc correctly came to England as a student and only developed into a high class rugby player while over here. Not so sure of the status with Barritt

Wilson was already well on course through the saxons when he joined Bath, Flood was already capped at Newcastle, Parling hasnt actually been fit enough to have really benefitted form his time at Tigers and hed been throughh the England age grade system when he joined, Dowson had been a Saxons player as far back as 2005, Palmer was a full intenrtaional at Leeds, Clark came up through the England age grade ranks at Leeds and capatined the U21 world cup side, Dicskon was playinmg age grade rugby for Leeds ( didnt realise he was a retired scott )

So yes I think its fair to say they are genuinly players who are a product of Northern clubs and the EPS system, although most have made their international debuts once poached by bigger clubs.

Parling hasnt actually been fit enough to have really benefitted form his time at Tigers

His first season at Tigers led to his call up to the England summer tour to Oz which is where his injury issues started.

Foden (turning him into a FB),

I think he left Sale because he was fed up of them playing him at FB. He went to Saints initially to play 9 but it didn't work and so he went back to FB where he has been a real success.

Sarries deserve some of the credit for Botha, who iirc correctly came to England as a student and only developed into a high class rugby player while over here. Not so sure of the status with Barritt

Botha played in the lower English leagues for a while and honed his game that way. Pretty sure Barritt played for the Sharks in SA before coming over at 21 to sign for Sarries.

Sam

I thought I'd heard it suggested that Barritt had played at a high level in SA.
Botha's development is very unusual for a player in the pro era - was he just late developing physically?

I don't know the details DH I presume he was a student who travelled and then started to step up through the leagues when given opportunities. Eventually Sarries took a punt on him.