Diet.

The one aspect of training that so few people know anything about. There is plenty of contradictory advice found on the various websites around the internet, which can leave people in more of a twist than when they started.

Hopefully, there is someone here that knows a bit about it.

My dilemma is this: I work full time, 8.30-5pm Monday to Friday, so eating often goes out of the picture. My aim is to maintain lean muscle, and minimise body fat (13% at last check). What then, would be a suitable plan to follow?

At the moment, my typical weekday diet is as follows:

Breakfast: Cereal (usually special K) and a piece of toast.
Lunch: Chicken breast slices from Sainsbury's either with rice or on a couple of cobs.
Evening: Completely varies, usually meat/fish and vegetables, though.

In terms of protein shakes, I'm quite bad with these and usually only get round to having one per day (usually at night). Should I be having more of these, and when?

Does anyone have any additional suggestions/alterations to my typical weekday diet (remembering that I buy my food at lunch times, so it can't be overly expensive). The restraints of an office job are such that the eating little and often mantra becomes pretty difficult to enforce.

All info is much appreciated, as I'm sure you'll agree that diet is very much a 'black spot' in the training routine of many.

I agree there is a conflicting amount of evidence out there...just finished reading a 300 page book called "Why We Get Fat" off Amazon. Was fascinating to read about how today's advice of eating a low fat diet is totaly BS. Definately worth a read if you are interested in nutrition. I found the case studies particularly brought home the truths about a few myths. The biggest one was this Native American tribe who used to eat loads of calories from meat and veg etc. then once the settlers arrived they aint less calories but ate all processed and refined food and became chronically obese!

As for the protein I take literally after training and then first thing in the morning to give your body a real hit to help repair during the day- to be honest I dont notice to much difference when I take it- as mentioned in other thread I find it a good filler to lunch where I have the same as you more or less with the chicken and then a bit of variety of meat/fish with some sort of green veg.

I think also people's bodies are sensitive to different things so there will never be a one size fits all approach. I gain weight just looking at food- whereas the missus can eat a bucket of KFC and guzzle full fat Coke and still be a size 10

Finally, despite me currently abusing them a bit too much on my cut (only 15 lbs to go!), people need to remember that protein shakes, vitamins, creatine etc. are supplements as in they supplement your existing diet so the need to eat right is as crucial as the training!

Hi guys, completely agree with both of you that so much information is out there and just seems to conflict with each other. However, as it's been said, it all comes down our own individual metabolism and bodies.
My understanding is quite basic regarding diet and nutrition, but what I do know comes from reading and completing my biology degree! That's all. So don't take it too seriously.

I think no matter what the overall goal, everyone should aim for 5 to 6 small meals per day, with high quantities of protein. Our bodies can only absorb so much protein at a time, and over-stacking a meal with it to compensate for missed protein intake doesn't work. Therefore, increased meal frequency, but reduced meal size is the key. Breakfast is the most important meal of the day, and should consist of a decent level or protein, either eggs or a shake ideally. This is because after a 6-8 hour sleep, the body is ready to absorb more protein. If someone's looking to lose weight or remain lean, carbs and fats should obviously be avoided most of the time, but can be consumed early in the day since calories will be used throughout the day and won't be excess. Protein and veggies can make up most meals.
I have done a 'cut' before where you try and lose some of the fat gained during a bulk, and I saw progress simply by cutting carbs out of my diet after 5pm.

I hope that any of the info provided helps in some way, but just to reiterate this is just my interpretation of what I have read.

If it helps, I'll outline my daily diet (rough). Background: 5'10, 98kg, rugby player. Primary aim is to increase strength and power, while maintaining reasonable speed, agility and fitness.

Breakfast: 6-8 egg omelette with fruit.
Mid-Morning: Shake, fruit and nuts.
Lunch: Chicken and rice/pasta, or large chicken sandwich.
Mid-afternoon: Chicken breast pieces, fruit, nuts + granola/flapjack.
Afternoon: Workout
Post: Shake
Dinner: Basic meat, veg and rice/pasta/potatos, etc.

All my shakes are made with 3 scoops, which equates to about 90g of protein I think. When choosing a protein powder, I go for one with high levels of whey (75-80%), but very little carbs or protein.

Great question Fists, would love to hear some answers to this. My daily food would generally go like this:

Breakfast: Museli
Brunch: 1 piece of wholemeal toast, 2 eggs scrambled and a slice of bacon minus the fat.
Lunch: I would have either a sandwich with ham or tuna, or some pasta with tuna/chicken and salad. Maybe an apple as well. That's all before I go to the gym. When I return from the gym, I might have peanut butter on a slice of toast, or some fruit (banana today!)
Dinner: Same as yourself, meat and veg. Usually chicken. Protien shake if it is a gym day. Then eat nothing from 7pm till the next day.

Sometimes I think that may be too much although it doesn't go over the 2000 calories, especially if I take the shake with water instead of milk.

Does 3 scoops works for you well? The scoops I have 3 times a day equates to about 35gs per serving...I would take more but I was worried about peeing down the drain...much like people do with creatine where as you point out the body can only take so much. Was also worried about the effects on the liver and kidneys...

I only ever use one scoop. I thought that was the right amount?

One scoop/or two scoops is the recommended dosage, but there's no problem at all in altering that for your own requirements. Depends entirely on what you've eaten that day prior to having the shake, or how long it's been since your last meal.

EoExcellence; whenever I have used creatine, I do pee like an absolute champion, but never had any problems with the increased protein intake, ever. Seen some nice gains from it, since before I was worried about not having enough protein in my diet, so upped it from 2 to 3 per shake.

Also, because it's got low carbs and fat content, you don't seem to get that bloated feeling you get with other powders!

Sorry, missed the bit about the liver and kidneys. From my reading, I understand that excessive creatine use can be detrimental on the liver and kidneys, which is why it's always recommended to do creatine-cycles, as opposed to constant dosing. Usually do a month or so cycle (depending on the size of the tub) and then steer clear for 3-5 months. Kind of a detox.
Never heard any detrimental effects of protein on the liver or kidneys, other than powders which contain caffeine might make you urinate more...

I used to be "addicted" to NO Xplode as I needed the energy boost. After sustained use I can confirm it is filth for your body. I cycled it properly like 3 weeks on 1 off as per the tub, but after prolonged useage of 9 months or so and a lot of £££s down the pisser - I suffered from really bad cramps especially in my hamstrings and my neck! Was horrid so knocked it on the head and generally feel better now I would say. I found it just made me retain water and when I stopped I peed like a championship race horse!

Has anyone used thermogenics before like Thermopure or Thermabol?

I've heard similar stories EoExcellence regarding No Xplode! I hate the thought of wasting money on products since they're so expensive, but with some creatine products you literally feel as if you're pissing your money away!

I've used thermobol before, which was ok I guess. It's mainly just a herbal remedy with lots of caffeine in it, so you might be better off just drinking green tea!

I take it myself- the myprotein verision Thermopure- I like the boost it gives you before going so I can work better. Even if its a placebo effect for £12 a pot to me its worth it to get a better session out of it. I dont beleive there is a real fat burner out there. I read that Thermo Grenade led to someone having a heart attack!

Yea I mean I must have ploughed through 8 tubs at £40 a go!! Its a lot when you think of it like that. The insomnia that comes with it is also atrocious but the pump after a session was insane!!

In terms of protein shakes, I'm quite bad with these and usually only get round to having one per day (usually at night). Should I be having more of these, and when?
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Post work out these are essential. The body needs to be replensished after training.

Slow release protein during the night is also important, casein is good for that. I will post a more detailed diet tonight.

All my shakes are made with 3 scoops, which equates to about 90g of protein I think. When choosing a protein powder, I go for one with high levels of whey (75-80%), but very little carbs or protein.
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Sorry but this wont do you any good. The body can only absorb around 30g of protein, consuming 90g just means that 60g of that is going to waste.

johnson2 wrote:
Sorry but this wont do you any good. The body can only absorb around 30g of protein, consuming 90g just means that 60g of that is going to waste.

That's an incredibly contentious issue, no one's agreed as to the exact amount that can be absorbed at one time. Ranges vary from as little as 25g to as high as 100g, it's pretty much impossible to measure. Maybe my 90g was higher than it actually is (each scoop is 26g equating to 78g total), but i've seen some really good gains simply by adding the extra scoop, both in size and strength.

bluestonevedder wrote:

johnson2 wrote:
Sorry but this wont do you any good. The body can only absorb around 30g of protein, consuming 90g just means that 60g of that is going to waste.

That's an incredibly contentious issue, no one's agreed as to the exact amount that can be absorbed at one time. Ranges vary from as little as 25g to as high as 100g, it's pretty much impossible to measure. Maybe my 90g was higher than it actually is (each scoop is 26g equating to 78g total), but i've seen some really good gains simply by adding the extra scoop, both in size and strength.

If it works then fairplay, but it is pretty widely accepted that 30g is around the level you require.

But if you are seeing good results then go for it...

I've heard the 30g limit too, but it's literally only a ball park figure. There's some really good articles on the research into this area. If anyone's interested, here's an interesting one:

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/

Thanks for sharing, Bluestone, I will try and take a look later tonight.

Johnson, looking forward to your diet plan suggestions later.

I'm off from work in a moment chaps, catch you all later on.

It is the time of year most people cut, so I will post a diet I follow. I am by no means an expert, but I have tried and spoken to many people about diets (including pro body builder and sportsmen) so I think my knowledge if decent.

Adjust accordingly depending on results.. if you're going to increase carbs dont do it at 'idle' times, do it in morning pre or postworkout.
 
Training days
 
morning 8am - CARBS 70g oats,PROTEIN 1 scoop whey 4-6 egg whites
 
1st break 10.30 CARBS 80g potatoes,PROTEIN 30g from chicken/tuna teaspoon  FATS peanut butter/handful of nuts to get 5-8g of fat
 
lunch 1pm -  CARBS 50g pots (PROTEIN and good FATS same as above)
 
pre workout meal 2/2.5 hours before gym ... CARBS 150g kidney beans 30g PROTEIN and good FATS same as above
 
postworkout shake, malto/dex/whey/creatine.. ****no fats****
 
postworkout meal .. CARBS 100g pots 100g kidney beans PROTEIN  30g from chicken/tuna FATS - teaspoon pbut
 
before bed .. cottage cheese/protein shake with TABLESPOON pbut. Scoop of BCAA's.
 
CARBS - 160g -PROTEIN 210g GOODFATS - 50g
 
key pointers
 
- the above gives u roughly 160g carbs per day (the majority of this comes morning pre and postworkout)
- oats are 66g carb to 100g in weight
- 100g pots gives u roughly 20g carbohydrate
- 100g kidney beans gives u roughly 15g carbohydrate, 7g protein and essential fibre
- feel free to thrown broccoli in where required mainly at nighttime rather than through the day
- try to drink atleast 4litres of water per day
 
None workout day follow a slightly different regime where your carbs start high and slowly decrease throughout the day (50g, 40g 30g, 20g, 20g) good fats with each meal broccoli from meal 3. You need 1 refeed day per week where u up ur carb intake to atleast 400g in total.
 
Another method to try is carb cycling..
 
HIGH CARB (250-300G)
LOW CARB (80G)
NO CARB
HIGH CARB
NO CARB
LOW CARB
NO CARB

This is for those who are active gym members looking to cut weight, given the time of year I though most would find this type of diet more useful.

If you are wanting to put on size and strength then you can use the same model but basically up the portion size. Meals should be little and often, 3 meals a day is fine for normal people, but not athletes like us.

Keep disciplined with diet and training and the results will follow.

Thanks for that, Johnson, very strict and difficult to follow for me, I'd say, but very useful at the same time.

Presumably that is a diet plan for building lean muscle/keeping low body fat?

Fists of Fury wrote:Thanks for that, Johnson, very strict and difficult to follow for me, I'd say, but very useful at the same time.

Presumably that is a diet plan for building lean muscle/keeping low body fat?

Exactly. Maintain/build on what you have while lowering body fat.

It gets a little mundane but the benefits from having a good physique outweigh the need for a KFC.

I've a training partner who basically follows that same diet but in larger quantities and he is making some impressive gains. Body fat staying the same put muscle gained is very good.

The actual quantities you consume will vary from person to person, but start low and build it up in increments of approx 30/40g of carbs and keep the protein intake high.

I should add the important thing about carbs is the time of day you have them. If you are looking to up the intake then do it pre/post work out or in the morning. The worst time possible to have them is for lunch (assuming you train around 6pm) and your body has no real need for them around that time.

I'd not thought of that, cheers.

Do you know how long it takes for the body to process any carbs and start using them, then?

Carb processing i think depends on the glycemic index of the food and that varies a lot even across what you would expect to be similar type foods.

Just remember potatoes do not really count as veg and contain little nutritional content other than carbs.
The same goes for what I call other "filler" foods, Rice , Pasta etc. They are all just a cheap way of getting calories and filling people up.
And veg is pretty useless too if it is boiled to f***!

Fists of Fury wrote:I'd not thought of that, cheers.

Do you know how long it takes for the body to process any carbs and start using them, then?

It very much depends on the type of carb it is, and at what point you are consuming it. To many variables to really give an accurate indication.

A mixed day today. Cereals in the morning, bacon and egg sandwich when I got to work, then a few slices of chicken breast and a handful of nuts at lunch. A little topsy turvy!

What cereal do you usually eat Fists? I think most are pretty high GI and are therefore processed pretty quickly. Something like oats or museli would be slow release.

Usually eat Special K, mate. Although, rather badly, I bought a box of 'Krave' the other week because of how nice they looked, and my God they're lovely, so I've bought a couple of boxes since.

Mostly Special K, though. I rarely have porridge but do enjoy it, so may start to do this more. Do you think there is a significant advantage in having porridge?

I think Special K and porridge have pretty similar GIs, i.e. low. So there will be a slow release of energy with both in theory. Porridge is also a decent source of protein. I'm not so sure about any other nutritional values with Special K

Excuse my ignorance, but what are GI's? And how can you tell how many each product has?

http://www.the-gi-diet.org/

Good info on this webiste. Even though it's really aimed at those who want to lose weight you should be able to dicepher the advantages of low GI foods for your own needs.

Thanks, mate.

Fists of Fury wrote:Although, rather badly, I bought a box of 'Krave' the other week because of how nice they looked, and my God they're lovely, so I've bought a couple of boxes since.

Amen to that. So good, not bad for a cheat day.

Fists. Have a read about metabolic typing online

MT explains how the same food can have complete opposite reactions in two people of different metabolic types, and if you're giving your body the wrong macronutrient ratios, energy conversion will be inefficient and you won't be working to your max potential.

Once you know your macronutrient ratios, you can put on size/cut etc by altering portion sizes, but the ratios will help not just in terms of fitness but also health, as it supports the weaker side of your oxidative and anatomical nervous systems to bring your body into chemical and hormonal balance. No tired feelings, sugar cravings after meals, greater feeling of well being, reduced illness (colds etc)...

Check it out and apologies for the essay!!

Wow, this seems very in depth, Stuart, thanks for your input, not a problem at all.

I will take a look later on

Hi guys,

I've started working out a lot more, and am looking to bulk up somewhat.

I do so with my mates as of present as they're showing me the ropes and it's a good motivational tool, but I was wondering whether any of you could give me some advice.

The two lads I go with both have protein and have recommended me using it too, I'm intrigued but was just wondering whether I could achieve a decent size from solely diet or would protein make this a lot easier/quicker.

Protein aids muscle growth and repair so is a must if you want to bulk up.

Diet is very important for bulking though, yes. You need to be eating quite a lot if you're looking to bulk a decent amount, but obviously not just any old rubbish, try and stick to the good foods.

Absolutely agree on the diet, have been eating a lot of things like chicken and veg and all that sort of stuff. Had a bit of a health scare so have gone all out into keeping fit.

Basically incorporated a complete overhaul of my diet, which is pretty good going for a Uni student haha!

Fists - Nuts, nuts and more nuts! Also you might want to have a heavier breakfast - i';ve found that i don't snack during the day and two pieces of fruit with a handful of nuts is all you need. Also - how much do you weigh?

I'm 170lbs and 6ft tall, Shah. Or are you talking to Sainty? I'm lost now

You mate - and which protein shake do you take?

http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/impact_whey_isolate

I have been on this one of late. Any comments?

Two scoops minimum preferably three - two after your training and one before you go sleep. Nuts, 2 pieces of fruit and a heavy breakfast - trial and error - better too much protein than not enough. Also everyne fails to drink water - not just when you are training - always water - keep clean, sweat it out, urine out the extra crap - no water retention = serious help towards your maintenance.

Not the best of starts today. Got lured in by the 'Krave' cereal, and had that alongside two crumpets.

Intend to make it up with the two pieces of fruit, the chicken breast and the packet of nuts that I've got here at work. Need something to go with the chicken breast - leaning toward some rice from Sainsbury's at the moment.

ShahenshahG wrote:Two scoops minimum preferably three - two after your training and one before you go sleep. Nuts, 2 pieces of fruit and a heavy breakfast - trial and error - better too much protein than not enough. Also everyne fails to drink water - not just when you are training - always water - keep clean, sweat it out, urine out the extra crap - no water retention = serious help towards your maintenance.

Interesting you should write that. Almost all reliable studies show that 30g is about all the protein a body can deal with in 1 sitting. 3 scoops at around 25g each is more than the body can process.

Not sure what you mean by a heavy breakfast? And fruit really does very little for you physique. Kidney beans and/or brocolli would be far better for you.

I guess fruit is best used as a filler snack, something that helps stave off a bit of hunger but is wholly good for you at the same time.

Chicken breast with rice for lunch, with a topping of sweet and sour sauce. Nice!

just something to fit around his schedule - 1 scoop for non training days 25 g and 75g for training days. Heavy breakfast means just that - some eggs toast and half a litre of milk. Generally just eat as much as you can without pigging out on cakes and biscuits - main goal is to prevent snacking during the day. Fruits don't do much but is a better alternative than most snacks and broccoli tastes crap

. I folowed this diet after doing my knee over and was desperate to build muscle - recovery was dramatic and now maintenance with little adjustment (more water, less toast and no pasta). as for the one sitting - i think there usually just under 20 grams of protein in one scoop so about 40 - 2 scoops. The rest will be disposed of but the body will get all it needs. then 1 scoop before bedtime to keep the body fed over night.

ShahenshahG wrote:just something to fit around his schedule - 1 scoop for non training days 25 g and 75g for training days. Heavy breakfast means just that - some eggs toast and half a litre of milk. Generally just eat as much as you can without pigging out on cakes and biscuits - main goal is to prevent snacking during the day. Fruits don't do much but is a better alternative than most snacks and broccoli tastes crap

. I folowed this diet after doing my knee over and was desperate to build muscle - recovery was dramatic and now maintenance with little adjustment (more water, less toast and no pasta). as for the one sitting - i think there usually just under 20 grams of protein in one scoop so about 40 - 2 scoops. The rest will be disposed of but the body will get all it needs. then 1 scoop before bedtime to keep the body fed over night.

Disagree.

What is the point of eating as much as you can? And a pint of milk, as well as toast (wholemeal I hope) and eggs along with whatever else you fancy is bad advice.

Nothing wrong with snacking during the day, in fact I would encourage it. Before I train in the evenings I have consumed 5 little meals at work. It is all about timing with your food. I have posted a diet earlier on this page which is a rough guide on the times you want to be eating assuming you train in the evenings.

Have weigh isolate before bed wont do you much good either. You need something slow release (casein).

"Does anyone have any additional suggestions/alterations to my typical weekday diet (remembering that I buy my food at lunch times, so it can't be overly expensive). The restraints of an office job are such that the eating little and often mantra becomes pretty difficult to enforce."

johnson2 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:just something to fit around his schedule - 1 scoop for non training days 25 g and 75g for training days. Heavy breakfast means just that - some eggs toast and half a litre of milk. Generally just eat as much as you can without pigging out on cakes and biscuits - main goal is to prevent snacking during the day. Fruits don't do much but is a better alternative than most snacks and broccoli tastes crap

. I folowed this diet after doing my knee over and was desperate to build muscle - recovery was dramatic and now maintenance with little adjustment (more water, less toast and no pasta). as for the one sitting - i think there usually just under 20 grams of protein in one scoop so about 40 - 2 scoops. The rest will be disposed of but the body will get all it needs. then 1 scoop before bedtime to keep the body fed over night.

Disagree.

What is the point of eating as much as you can? And a pint of milk, as well as toast (wholemeal I hope) and eggs along with whatever else you fancy is bad advice.Nothing wrong with snacking during the day, in fact I would encourage it. Before I train in the evenings I have consumed 5 little meals at work. It is all about timing with your food. I have posted a diet earlier on this page which is a rough guide on the times you want to be eating assuming you train in the evenings.

Have weigh isolate before bed wont do you much good either. You need something slow release (casein).

Which part of this is bad advice? The milk, eggs and toast? Or the 'whatever else you fancy'?