england saxons v irish wolfhounds predictions

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i think it be good game with irish doing well in hc they will be confident but england always strong at saxons level got some good young fowards but i think irish will edge it they got better pack where england got better back line what do you think

He was inducted into the main squad for the 6 nations last year, and looked to be second choice 13 (maybe barring Earls). That is the thing though, he was so highly rated last year people seem to forget. Tuilagi and him would have definitely been on the same level at this point, yet Tuilagi eventually got the chance as there were no other good options at 13. It is just this year that Spence has been forgotten for a number of reasons already highlighted.

Look he took his chance at Caves expense last year and had a fantastic season, was genuinely one of Ulsters best players and then had a standout performance for the Wolfhounds.

He was called up to Ireland training on merit.

Since Cave's return he's had to accept a less prominant role but has performed admirably in Wallace absence at 12 even if he's been stifled a bit and hasn't caught the eye as much as last year.

I think the experience will stand him in good stead but he needs to be getting regular games at Ulster before he should be considered for Ireland. Like O'Malley he's a great prospect but still learning.

No, Rory, Earls was always going to cover for BOD. I remember saying the exact same things about him- last year. He had a purple patch in his breakthrough season and was highly (over)rated. That purple patch was as good as you remember, but this happens a lot to players and then they get second season syndrome. Once he works through this next couple of years and starts adding to his game and refining his skill set he will be where you think he is as a player.

He's a very talented player who has some kinks in his game to work out and would benefit from getting played at 13 consistently; it's obvious he is very effective attacking in the wide channels and the 12 shirt doesn't suit him. I think he benefited a lot from the work of the in-form Pienaar, Humphs and Wallace last year. All three of those players were playing well and created a lot of space for him.

Bringing up O'Malley though rodders - I'm sure you've seen the calls that he looks like the future 13, and people are bigging him up to be the next BOD. Though I think Spence was much better last season than EOM has been this season, and that isn't taking away from EOM either. I know the current season is the one that matters, but Spence has rarely had a chance at his position. I hope that he will take his chances in Cave's absence.

Notch wrote:No, Rory, Earls was always going to cover for BOD. I remember saying the exact same things about him- last year. He had a purple patch in his breakthrough season and was highly (over)rated. That purple patch was as good as you remember, but this happens a lot to players and then they get second season syndrome. Once he works through this next couple of years and starts adding to his game and refining his skill set he will be where you think he is as a player.

He's a very talented player who has some kinks in his game to work out and would benefit from getting played at 13 consistently; it's obvious he is very effective attacking in the wide channels and the 12 shirt doesn't suit him. I think he benefited a lot from the work of the in-form Pienaar, Humphs and Wallace last year. All three of those players were playing well and created a lot of space for him.

That is my point though Notch - second syndrome doesn't apply for Spence really. He hasn't got many chances at 13 and has had to adapt to 12.

I don't think there is a next BOD Rory, he's a one-off, once in a lifetime player. An all time great.

Hopefully what we'll have is a number of very good players pushing for both the 12 and 13 shirts.

I believe we will be looking at two of them tomorrow.

There doesn't need to be another BOD - we can find a 12/13 combination who will do better than D'Arcy and BOD ever did. What I meant to say about EOM is that he has been described as the replacement to BOD, and I guess he is a similar style of player. Spence isn't, and is more reminiscent of a Jacque Fourie or Rougerie type of player. Speed and agility vs physicality and pace.

Calls for EOM are equally premature Rory. I like the look of him but realistically i think he is too small to play 13 internationally and i suspect Deccie and Co think something similar.

When you consider the options the one thing Spence has going for him is his physicality. He is the most physical of all the young centre options but that will mean little if he cant work on his skills.

O'Leary is a very physical scrum half but his passing is just not good enough to justify selection. spence is only 21 i believe so there is plenty of time for him. I remember Darren Cave suffered in his 2nd season too although his was blighted by injury.

No rush on spence just yet. Deccie and McLaughlin i would say like their big physical players so he wont be off the radar.

Pity there arent a bigger mix on the 606v2 boards as this is like an Ulster fans forum.

Just to note on Earls he will be the OC for the foreseeable future due to he being the best player for that position plus I am not sure who thought he was overrated but we certainly dont overrate him down here. He is a prodigous talent and as was shown last weekend our best OC at the moment.

As for Spence the fact that Whitten and Walace were preferred for the game last weekend shows where he is in the scheme of things. Possibly will be good but any of the games I have seen him in at the start of the season he seemed to not be able to contain himself from doing stupid things on the pitch...

Cave is the main possibility and would have made the wolfhounds...I doubt if he would have made the Irish senior squad at least at the start of the 6ns.

DOD wrote:Pity there arent a bigger mix on the 606v2 boards as this is like an Ulster fans forum.

Just to note on Earls he will be the OC for the foreseeable future due to he being the best player for that position plus I am not sure who thought he was overrated but we certainly dont overrate him down here. He is a prodigous talent and as was shown last weekend our best OC at the moment.

As for Spence the fact that Whitten and Walace were preferred for the game last weekend shows where he is in the scheme of things. Possibly will be good but any of the games I have seen him in at the start of the season he seemed to not be able to contain himself from doing stupid things on the pitch...

Cave is the main possibility and would have made the wolfhounds...I doubt if he would have made the Irish senior squad at least at the start of the 6ns.

Doesnt really DOD. He is only back from injury which was why whitten was preferred. If both were fit Spence would have been preferred as he is a 13 and Whitten isnt.

No offence meant, but i really don't get the rave reviews for Spence. Completely accept i may not have seen enough of him play, and certainly not as much as you guys. But he seems pretty limited - physical, good workrate, ok turn of pace, is that enough for an international centre? Certainly looks a better 13 than 12 i'd concede, perhaps i've seen him more at 12?

I would also say though that i haven't been as quick to jump on the Manu bandwagon as some. I still think he has a LOT of deficiencies. His obvious advantage is that the physicality he used to bully players through the age grades appears to have been transferred to a higher level. But his passing is average, defensive alignment dodgy, kicking game non-existent and his speed well below the highest level.

Sorry if this sounds like i'm being contrary, happy to be educated on Spence and what people feel his attributes are. I could certainly see both Spence and Tuilagi having decent international careers, but I think some of the expectations need to be dialled down a bit.

In my opinion. Joseph at LI looks the most complete prospect and the player i'd like to see long-term at 13 for England. After that i think Trinder, May (possibly a back 3 player) and Daly look like they have the most balanced skills-set. I suppose the issue is - will those last 3 be physically up to top-level rugby. Possibly not.

Standulstermen wrote:

DOD wrote:Pity there arent a bigger mix on the 606v2 boards as this is like an Ulster fans forum.

Just to note on Earls he will be the OC for the foreseeable future due to he being the best player for that position plus I am not sure who thought he was overrated but we certainly dont overrate him down here. He is a prodigous talent and as was shown last weekend our best OC at the moment.

As for Spence the fact that Whitten and Walace were preferred for the game last weekend shows where he is in the scheme of things. Possibly will be good but any of the games I have seen him in at the start of the season he seemed to not be able to contain himself from doing stupid things on the pitch...

Cave is the main possibility and would have made the wolfhounds...I doubt if he would have made the Irish senior squad at least at the start of the 6ns.

Doesnt really DOD. He is only back from injury which was why whitten was preferred. If both were fit Spence would have been preferred as he is a 13 and Whitten isnt.

Spence was named on the bench...if he was good enough or that much better than Whitten he should have/would have played. If he is that good...

Anyone know if this game is being televised at all? Apologies if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread

DOD wrote: Just to note on Earls he will be the OC for the foreseeable future due to he being the best player for that position

Highly questionable many of us consider the best 13, after BOD, in Irish rugby and I am not just talking about Ulster fans.

DOD wrote: As for Spence the fact that Whitten and Wallace were preferred for the game last weekend shows where he is in the scheme of things.

Spence was not fully fit and the only reason he was on the bench was because injurues to Cave and Marshall meant we were very short in the midfield.

Hood if you have only seeen him this year you have indeed not seen him in his best position as he has played virtually all his rugby at 12 when he is a 13 first, a winger second and a 12 third. Again down to the injuries to Wallace and Marshall.

As for getting a better centre pairing than BOD and D'aRcy I just don't see. At their best it was like having 1 (BOD) and a 1/2 (D'Arcy) extra loose forwards. Best does the same thing from Number 2.

This is a fantastic plus for Ireland . They might replace D'arcy they wont replace BOD and Ireland will notice the negative impact defensively in theyears to come.

DOD wrote:Anyone know if this game is being televised at all? Apologies if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread

Sky 1 or 2 - cant remember which one

They might question him but the facts speak for themselves. I believe BOD is the only player better than him, he proved last weekend that he is the prime player for the position. He will only get better the more he plays there especially for Ireland.

reasonable team but cannot help thinking there is an element of the political about the selection of muldoon and mc carthy.

surely o mahony and toner deserve a start on the evidence of HC form.

Ulster says no to Eoin O'Malley again

Sky Sports 1 DOD.

You may well be right about Earls DOD and he will get his chance this 6N i believe. I still think Cave is a better 13 but Earls has more potential. Anyway im not going down that road again. If Earls gets the shirt (and it is likely then best of luck to him, i hope he nails it).

I dont think you could drop Whitten for a guy with no gametime when whitten had performed admirably in the 2 games previous. Doesnt mean he is a better player than Spence. Just more ready for that particular game but i dont see anyone other than Rory bigging up Spence and certainly no one is clamouring for his inclusion in the main 6N squad.

On the spence issue i think he has been relatively poor this season Hood. I dont think he is entirely to blame as he was being forced to crash ball up from 12 (not his position) from 10-15 yards behind the gainline behind what was a retreating pack during that bad spell we had in october.

He is (to my mind) an out and out 13 who will always need his centre partner to be the organiser. I think Earls is definitely a bit smarter but i think they play the same way in that they will need a 12 to open up space for them and then they can be devastating (particularly Earls).

Thats why i would prefer Wallace/Earls to D'arcy/Earls for the 6N but i doubt it will happen.

Dave

O'Malley is a gifted player but i cant help feeling that his size will count against him for international selection. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong as he is a great player to watch. DOD is right in the BOD, Earls and i would imagine Cave are in front of him for the 13 shirt.

i would have cave ahead of o'malley at the moment also. just appears any time his merits are debated its all ulster responses saying he is not there yet..

i do think he will turn out to be a top player but is a few years away yet.

i have been impressed with Whitten the bit i have seen of him this year. He certainly has the physical presence at 12 we have not had in a while

Standulstermen wrote:Sky Sports 1 DOD.

You may well be right about Earls DOD and he will get his chance this 6N i believe. I still think Cave is a better 13 but Earls has more potential. Anyway im not going down that road again. If Earls gets the shirt (and it is likely then best of luck to him, i hope he nails it).

I dont think you could drop Whitten for a guy with no gametime when whitten had performed admirably in the 2 games previous. Doesnt mean he is a better player than Spence. Just more ready for that particular game but i dont see anyone other than Rory bigging up Spence and certainly no one is clamouring for his inclusion in the main 6N squad.

On the spence issue i think he has been relatively poor this season Hood. I dont think he is entirely to blame as he was being forced to crash ball up from 12 (not his position) from 10-15 yards behind the gainline behind what was a retreating pack during that bad spell we had in october.

He is (to my mind) an out and out 13 who will always need his centre partner to be the organiser. I think Earls is definitely a bit smarter but i think they play the same way in that they will need a 12 to open up space for them and then they can be devastating (particularly Earls).

Thats why i would prefer Wallace/Earls to D'arcy/Earls for the 6N but i doubt it will happen.

Dave

O'Malley is a gifted player but i cant help feeling that his size will count against him for international selection. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong as he is a great player to watch. DOD is right in the BOD, Earls and i would imagine Cave are in front of him for the 13 shirt.

Fair enough, although i know i've seen him play at 13 at least once and was a little underwhelmed. I'll put it down to a on off aberration. Could you or anyone else give me an idea as to what his strengths are - are they as i suggested e.g. physical, good work rate? or is there more to him?

Someone i was massively impressed by is O'Mahoney. Looked incredibly abrasive (as all Irish backrowers appear to!) with a massive work-rate. Surprised he's not starting in the Wolfhounds team but i suppose Henry has been playing well.

The only times he has played 13 this seasonmhe was outside Marshall ( who was shocking at that point), Jackson and Marshall which is a very very young axis.

I think you have listed a couple of Spences attributes but his one one one defence is superb as well. Cave for instance is a better reader and organiser and if you wanted someone to make a decision then cave would be your man but spence hits like a dump truck. In pre season he pummelled robshaw. He can pass as well although he isn't gifted in this area and he has decent feet.

If you look up the wolfhounds Saxons game from last year and watch the Hurley try it epitomises what he can produce but he needs to show it for ulster wit cave injured now. I'm not convinced he is a smart player but he has bags of potential and is still very young. Time will tell but I would love to see a coach like schmidt get hold of him

Hood83 wrote:
I would also say though that i haven't been as quick to jump on the Manu bandwagon as some. I still think he has a LOT of deficiencies. His obvious advantage is that the physicality he used to bully players through the age grades appears to have been transferred to a higher level. But his passing is average, defensive alignment dodgy, kicking game non-existent and his speed well below the highest level.

In my opinion. Joseph at LI looks the most complete prospect and the player i'd like to see long-term at 13 for England. After that i think Trinder, May (possibly a back 3 player) and Daly look like they have the most balanced skills-set. I suppose the issue is - will those last 3 be physically up to top-level rugby. Possibly not.

Speed is one of his strengths, but don't get many players who can both go through players and run away from them. Go on Youtube and watch some of his tries. I reckon he's about as quick as Trinder, and Trinder, whilst not lightening, is plenty quick enough to play 13 at international level.

His passing is perfectly adequate for a 13, and will get much better (the man is 20 years of age for goodness sake), he has time to develop a kicking game and I didn't notice much wrong with his defensive alignment in the WC. I think you are basing some of your opinions on his performances when he'd played less than 10 games at senior club level.

The way Trinder, May and Daly are playing in their early 20s (or at 18 in Elliot Daly's case) for their club means I'm not worried about lack of physicality limiting them as they get older. There will be intense competition for the 13 shirt, and players like Tovey, Addison and the RL converts (Tomkins, Thornley and Eastmond) may have something to add to that debate too.

I'll be watching the scrum closely. Archer has played little with Munster and blows hot and cold.

O'Malley is another player of interest since Ireland are short of 13s.

Aren't these games normally on Friday nights? I couldn't find it on the box at all today, probably because it's tomorrow evening!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
One recurrent theme in criticism of English rugby though is a focus on size and winning at age group level. We keep spanking sides at U18s simply by bigger bigger tougher stronger than thgem. In New Zelans their 18 yr old props have the ball handling skills of our 21 year old half backs (slight possible exageration). The focus is on getting everyone in the country to be able to handle a ball, then seeing who bulks up and fronts up enough to be a pro. In England the cliche is its a case of who is a genetic freak/steroid abusser at the age of 16, lets see if he can be the new Banahan.
Im guessing Ireland tend to have more focus on the skills side for recruitment of young players to the pro ranks.

I think that's a bit harsh - England u18 players are technicaly outstanding, and for isntance beat an Australia u19 side in the autumn which was physcially larger. I also think age-group props these days have decent skills, think of Henry Thomas for instance.

I think the academies are doing a fine job (in the LV there are three teenage FHs starting for their clubs, with Slade injured and Heathcote and Robinson on the bench). However, you might be interested in reading about 'Shaping the Game', an initative to encourage handling skills and reduce the physical element from kids rugby:

Shaping the Game

The u13 sides the senior players coached yesterday were playing to these rules. I'd expect it to be 3 or 4 years and then we should start to see the benefits at England age-group level.

Hood83 wrote:No offence meant, but i really don't get the rave reviews for Spence. Completely accept i may not have seen enough of him play, and certainly not as much as you guys. But he seems pretty limited - physical, good workrate, ok turn of pace, is that enough for an international centre? Certainly looks a better 13 than 12 i'd concede, perhaps i've seen him more at 12?

To be honest, this is a pretty accurate description of Spence. I'd add he runs good lines and is a very solid defender but you're pretty much right. He has talent and physicality, but needs to improve his passing, offloading and most crucially his reading of the game. He's unlucky he was recovering from injury and didn't get to start against Clermont.

Beware bandwagons and hyperbole. He is actually a very good finisher, and solid under the high ball. If I'm perfectly honest I would quite like to see him deployed on the wing for Ulster in the Pro12 if he can't nail down the 13 shirt. Outside centre is his best position, but wing would suit him more than 12.

Have to disagree about Spence not being able to read the game. He's always struck me as someone who uses his head - can you ever see him jumping off the Cairnryan ferry?

I think in Ulster, Cave, Luke Marshall and Chris Farrell are all bigger prospects than Spence. Spence is a good player but I think the next generation of centers will have to be highly skilled or very big. He is very young yet though. Looking at that list, Ulster do seem to be producing loads of centers! Ian Whitten is another decent player. I wish Munster could develop 1 or 2.

Interesting selections for the saxons:

The Backs
Armitage- I believe to be a top class player, questions marks over his dicipline will make his performance on saturday an important one. He needs to play well to challenge brown and foden for his EPS place.
Banahan- Also lost out on his EPS spot, not everyones cup of tea but if utilised correctly he can be devastating.
Twelvetrees- had a difficult game at 10 against Ulster, he really doesnt look comfortable there against strong opposition. He has just signed for Gloucester so that he can play regularly at 12 and now he has been handed a chance to prove his quality at 12 having been picked there for the saxons.

The forwards
The front row- Its a very dynamic front row. Mullan inparticular will be interesting as he was mooted for big things a couple of years ago and probably suffered with worcester being relegated.
Gaskell- Named as captain when I would have prefered T Johnson to start at blindside, coaches clearly believe in him, can he prove them right?
Saull- Impressive when I have seen him recently but doesnt start often at Sarries, this makes it difficult for him to be called up to the full squad. This is a chance for him to prove he is the elusive openside england need epescially considering there is no no. 7 in the EPS.

Mullen suffered more for having repeated shoulder injuries. He was still being selected for Saxons (when fit) while they were relegated. Marler and Corbisiero may take his spot now. Very good prop though. Good scrummager, good in the loose, ran down Hook over 40 yards for a try saving tackle (that was fantastic and commentators reaction was hilarious.

Thing with Spence (and I don't know much about him in particular) is that no matter how much potential a player has, tiny little things can put massive blocks on a career. Look a Simpson-Daniel. Absolutely fantastic player, possibly the best English wing in the last decade. Kept getting injured just before international windows. They weren't for long but just enough for him not to get selected. Never really got to play for England much. If there are other players it's even more difficult as it can come down to combinations (perhaps another isn't as good individually but plays better with the other centres).

Sorry to bring it up but Cipriani is an example. He really was fantastic just after 20 (when he won a HEC). Then he broke his leg and never really recovered from it. When that had some impact on his attitude or it always was going to be like that we don't know.

The Great Aukster wrote:Have to disagree about Spence not being able to read the game. He's always struck me as someone who uses his head - can you ever see him jumping off the Cairnryan ferry?

Not sure about the Cairnryan ferry thing but yeah Spence is an incredibly intelligent player in my opinion. I really can't understand some of the critcism from some Ulster fans, the guy is 21 and has played one and half seasons of top level rugby. I think he is a prodigious talent and has massive potential. The thing that stands out most for me is his attitude, a bit like O'Mahoney, he has an edge to his game a fearless attitude. His work rate is exemplary and no matter how his team is going he hurls himself into rucks and works his socks off in attack and defence and He reads the game exceptionally well. I'm not expecting too much tomorrow as he hasn't played much lately but I think some of his critics will have to eat their words over the next few seasons.

Notch tbh I think you are being very critical of Spence - possibly forgetting his form last year, or maybe playing it safe so you can't be accused of hyping the guy up. I don't see how you could say that if you saw him last season. I came back into rugby just last season, and I had never seen Spence before and he immediately caught my eye. From that point on he has impressed me greatly. This season hasn't been good but the reasons have all been listed already.

For those questioning his rugby brain, and who would like to see some lovely pieces of rugby:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULYj6KXqFPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMQMSm9jFHs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuXMxxHdDJw

These look very BOD-like to me. He just needs to do it on a more consistent basis. Also agree with Rodders.

I'm not certain any of those demonstrate a great reading of the game Rory. The first one is a hack ahead that treviso should have dealt with. He does demonstrate in that the will and attitude rodders describes though.

The 2nd is a preset move which he throws forward albeit under extreme pressure. Away from raven hill that is called back

The 3rd shows he is a powerful runner with great power, a good handoff and the decent feet I described earlier.

I don't want to come across uber critical and each of those try's is great play by spence (particularly the 3rd) but they don't show a great reading of the game. It highlights his attributes like strength, power and pace and the determination that rodders mentioned. I agree with him that spence does seem to have the right attitude and I hope he works on his game because the raw materials are there.

Like I said, had BOD done any of those first two tries I feel you would be saying how fantastic a rugby brain he has. First one he displays outstanding footballing skills, I don't know how anyone could say otherwise. Very similar to something BOD did himself before and was praised for it. Second one he throws a lovely inside ball showing quick hands. Thirdly he finishes a try himself brilliantly. The third one was more showing his strength and pace, and his finishing skills. The first two to me show he has a brilliant rugby brain.

Tbh I feel like some ulster fans are afraid of over-rating him, and are trying to be very critical of him. That is what I am gathering anyway, apologies if I am wrong. Whatever the reason I think some people are being overly critical.

Have to agree to disagree Rory. He kicked the first forward and it was a hack. He did well to not try and attempt the catch and he didn't give up on it which made the try but in essence burton gifted ulster that score.

Anyway we are going over old ground. I hope he has a stormer tomorrow

Definitely! Disappointed he is at 12, but I feel he will still perform.

The Great Aukster wrote:Have to disagree about Spence not being able to read the game. He's always struck me as someone who uses his head - can you ever see him jumping off the Cairnryan ferry?

He certainly seems to have his head screwed on better off the pitch! No, what I meant is reading the situation and taking the right option. When to run, when to pass, when a kick might be on. He tends to be predictable but effective. The more space he's in, the more effective. All of these things he will become better at with more experience and the right guidance.

Rory I hope I'm not being overly critical, because I do actually rate the guy, I think right now he's an excellent player for Ulster and I hope to see him stay here and fulfil his potential with Ulster. I'm just sounding a note of caution; you're right that all the raw ingredients are there, but it will take a few years to put them together. I agree with you he is wasted to a degree at 12. He just needs time before he is thrust into the limelight.

Looking forward to the game, it'll be nice to see the half backs go well for the Saxons. Also going to keep an eye on Garvey and Mullan as they could really push for a senior place during the championship.

Will Banahan get some time in the right position during this game though?

Anybody think that the Saxons XV might give the full English XV likely to play Scotland next week a run for its money?

I was just about to say, I reckon the Saxons would give the 'Elites' a bloody good game.

Yes I think it would. What does that say though...

Chjw131 wrote:Yes I think it would. What does that say though...

That we have a lot of strength in depth but not as many players of outstanding ability as we should have?

If i'm honest, I don't think they would. I think the full strength England team would annihilate the A's. Especially up front.

Not sure about that. PDJ can be intermittent with his scrummaging admittedly, but Mullan is excellent and Gray.... well ok Gray is the weak link there, i'd rather see Jamie George there for scrummaging. Garvey is also a solid SR, Robson a bit lightweight but then so is Palmer who will probably start for the first XV. Plus Corbisiero is scrummaging like my Nan at the moment.