england saxons v irish wolfhounds predictions

by adambarney Wed 25 Jan 2012, 20:34

First topic message reminder :

i think it be good game with irish doing well in hc they will be confident but england always strong at saxons level got some good young fowards but i think irish will edge it they got better pack where england got better back line what do you think

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 15:59

thomh wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:EOM and spence came up against tuilagi and 36 last year and outplayed them. Hopper isn't an improvement on tuilagi IMO.

Yes, but Tuilagi is clearly much better than he showed that day. Twelvetrees and Hopper are both exciting but with flaws in their game, so this could be a really interesting match-up.

I honestly think Spence has the potential to be better than Tuilagi is though.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:03

If Spence and EOM are that much better than Tuilagi then it says something about good the firts team centers must be ...............HMMMMMMMM

Correct me if Im wrong but with Ireland their main squad is what ...23 players and these are the next 22? Whereas England players are 3rd/4th choice starters, these are Irelands 2/3rd choice starters?

by **Notch** Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:03

Given thats who were facing in April, I would say your attitude is rather defeatist Rory! Smile

by red_stag Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:06

No Peter.

12 - Gordon Darcy, Paddy Wallace, Fergus McFadden (all with main squad)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll, Keith Earls, Darren Cave (two of them injured)

Spence and O'Malley are both uncapped and well down the pecking order.

by **profitius** Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:08

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
thomh wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:EOM and spence came up against tuilagi and 36 last year and outplayed them. Hopper isn't an improvement on tuilagi IMO.

Yes, but Tuilagi is clearly much better than he showed that day. Twelvetrees and Hopper are both exciting but with flaws in their game, so this could be a really interesting match-up.

I honestly think Spence has the potential to be better than Tuilagi is though.

I think Spence and Tuilagi are similar types of players. Tuilagi is better at the moment but Spence does have a higher workrate.

The problem for Spence in getting into the full Ireland side is his skill level. Maybe I'm being unfair but he doesn't look to be very talented. O'Malley on the other hand is the opposite. Very talented, creative player but might lack physicality. He is still not starting for Leinster regularly in BODs absence.

by geoff998rugby Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:17

As stag says these are 4th choice centres for Ireland

by belovedfrosties Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:20

I'm sorry Dave but i can't agree with you on that, in the toulouse game he missed about 4 or 5 tackles (admittedly 2 of those were against picamoles who was having a stormer). Frankly though, thats just not good enough and i have seen him out of position a few times. This might just be that i have only seen him in games where he has had an off day but it seems unlikely. On the plus side, defence can easily be taught and he already has very good attacking instincts. I just don't think there is that much time for him to become the player he might have been.

You're right about rewarding good play and it does send the right message to players in the prem that form will be rewarded.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:21

Ignore.. Double post.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:22

Spence looks very talented, some of the things he does at times are just incredible. He has more talent than EOM in my opinion, however EOM has the fast feet which Spence doesn't have. The main thing for Spence is his distribution skills need work. That is his weakness. He also needs to be a bit more consistent and play at 13 more.

by beshocked Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:32

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Going to do a little head to head if you don't mind!

15 Delon Armitage/Gavin Duffy - Armitage tops this one, although I rate Duffy I think Armitage is very dangerous.

14 Ugo Monye/Dave Kearney - Monye is more experienced, and again dangerous, but Kearney looks a real prospect. Still, Monye.

13 Matt Hopper/Eoin O'Malley - Hopper has been getting some praise these days, but he still has a lot to prove. Meanwhile EOM is a good prospect but his defence is suspect. I would say this is a draw.

12 Billy Twelvetrees/Nevin Spence - Well, I have to say Spence is my favourite prospect in Ireland. Though at 13, not at 12. He is just back from injury, but no doubt will put his body on the line. He is so physical. Twelvetrees had a shocker at 10 against Ulster, though at 12 he may be right at home. I would say Twelvetrees shades this one, but only because Spence is out of position.

11 Matt Banahan/Simon Zebo - Zebo. Don't rate Banahan high at all and Zebo will probably run circles round him.

10 Freddie Burns/Ian Keatley - Burns seems to be doing well but I don't know a whole lot about him. He seems to have a cool head at the top level. Keatley is pretty hot and cold at times in open play, but can be deadly accurate with the boot. An interesting one, will have to go with a draw here.

9 Ben Spencer/Isaac Boss - I think Boss has been playing some great rugby this past while for Leinster. However, as I don't know a thing about Spencer really I am going to have to pass on this one. Anyone want to answer this one for me?

So far England are in the lead. I'll do the forwards soon

In regards to Ben Spencer he has looked very good this season after getting his opportunity at Saracens. With De Kock and Wigglesworth injured he has had plenty of matches in the AP and HC. A bit of a bolter - only 19, only joined Saracens from Cambridge RFC in the pre season. Was in the England U20s squad but with Micky Young's ban Spencer has been promoted.

He is an old head on young shoulders. Calm,assured and very mature for his age.A good all round scrum half who marshalls his forwards well. Excellent box kick too. Didn't look out of his place in his recent head to head with Yachvili. Scored a good try in the recent match vs Biarritz.

by DaveM Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:40

I could imagine Spencer being the England SH in a couple of years' time.

Frosties, are you talking about the Quins home game? Terrible performance all-round that day. Much better in Quins away win. Still, when I think about my current hierarchy for 13 for 2015 he doesn't feature (Tuilagi, JJ, Daly, Trinder, May).

And Spence has the potential to be better than Tuilagi, but is Ireland's fourth choice centre? I know Irish rugby is good, but that good?

by red_stag Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:46

I dont think he will be better than Tuilagi personally.

He is our 4th choice centre though.

by belovedfrosties Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:49

Yes i was Dave, unfortunately think it has all come too late for Hopper, weird that im saying that considering he is only 26!!

I'd have trinder as joint with JJ behind tuilagi, I rate him highly, think if he gets a bit more meat on him he could be englands new lewsey. Runs great lines and always pops up in support, I would like to see him outside Barritt for the 6N.

Also I believe that Daly has the potential to be better than BOD and hes englands 5th choice 13, so there!!!

by geoff998rugby Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:50

Firstly Spence is a 13 not a 12 but Ireland are short of 12's.

Also he is only 21 years of age and 18 months ago had only ever started 1 senior match.
He is still learning and will get better

To put into context he is younger than Zebo - although not by much

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:58

red_stag wrote:I dont think he will be better than Tuilagi personally.

He is our 4th choice centre though.

He will be better than Tuilagi. Trust me thumbsup

He has great potential I think.

I think he would be higher than 4th choice had this season not been so quiet for him. Most games he had at 12, rather than 13, and then he got injured. Cave also has been immense, making it even harder for him. I think he is on a learning curve, and having Cave ahead of him is actually a good thing, as Cave has the brains, decision making and distribution Spence needs. If he learns that from Cave, he will eventually move up the ranks. For now, Cave should be the starting centre for Ulster (and if fit, Ireland).

Not counting BOD, I feel our ranking for the 13 should be this:

Cave, Earls, Spence, Griffin/EOM. Spence is 3rd choice for me, just behind Earls.

by Chjw131 Thu 26 Jan 2012, 16:58

belovedfrosties wrote:Yes i was Dave, unfortunately think it has all come too late for Hopper, weird that im saying that considering he is only 26!!

I'd have trinder as joint with JJ behind tuilagi, I rate him highly, think if he gets a bit more meat on him he could be englands new lewsey. Runs great lines and always pops up in support, I would like to see him outside Barritt for the 6N.

Also I believe that Daly has the potential to be better than BOD and hes englands 5th choice 13, so there!!!

Agreed on Trinder Beloved. I think he could be fantastic for England, and playing him with Barritt would just give us a bit more pace and incisiveness, something we've really lacked at centre for a long time. He also has a kicking game which can be very useful.

by red_stag Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:00

However Tuilagi is younger than all of them at 20 and has shown himself to be more than capable of featuring at Heineken Cup or Test Level. He is a first choice player for club and country and looks set to be a seriously top player.

Spence is showing signs of promise. A world of difference.

by DaveM Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:03

Older than Tuilagi though (who I think started his first senior game last season).

Frosties, I'm a big Trinder fan and think he'll start a game for England in this 6 Nations. I just think that JJ and Daly(how many OCs can kick 60m penalties?) may be even more gifted. 13 is definitely up for grabs though and, like 15, is a position of considerable strength for England.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:04

Tuilagi was selected based on showing signs of promise and has made the move up. Just like North, Faletau etc etc. Players who show promise and are given the chance. Or one closer to home, Murray. The thing is, Ireland normally don't want a player who hasn't played a few seasons of HEC rugby. No matter how talented he is. Also, Ireland have had the best 13 ever and great depth there in general, so Spence is always going to take longer to move up.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:06

Also, when Tuilagi was being considered for selection, people worried about his distribution/defence. He was never perfect, but everyone knew how dangerous he was in attack and how physical he is. He had great potential. So they wanted to see him tried out. And now he is one of the first names on the team sheet.

by red_stag Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:09

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Tuilagi was selected based on showing signs of promise and has made the move up. Just like North, Faletau etc etc. Players who show promise and are given the chance. Or one closer to home, Murray. The thing is, Ireland normally don't want a player who hasn't played a few seasons of HEC rugby. No matter how talented he is. Also, Ireland have had the best 13 ever and great depth there in general, so Spence is always going to take longer to move up.

Exactly. Hence my claims that he won't be as good as Tuilagi.

by Standulstermen Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:12

Spence is a tricky one. He is clearly behind cave but then I wouldn't put tuilagi any better than cave truth be told.

It's so hard to judge mind you. Spenc has things he needs to work on like his distribution and his awareness on pitch and he needs to go after these flaws to deliver. Tuilagi is definitely ahead of him at present and yet I can't help but wonder where spence would be had ulster not shoehorned him into 12 as a crash ball. Either way the only thing I was stating is that I think the wolfhounds have the edge in the centres but using spence further away from the ruck area in attack is key.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:15

Could you elaborate? So you think Spence will not be as good as the likes of Tuilagi because England etc can select these young exciting players, while Ireland are too precious? If that is the case I guess I agree, but that is the fault of the Irish management, not Spence's. If Ireland cannot trust in these players, and take a risk, that is their fault. We did it with Murray, and now he is our first choice.

EDIT: Before you think I am pushing Spence into the starting Ireland team, I am not. He has things he must work on. I am just arguing against your logic as to why Tuilagi is better. Like I said, Tuilagi had flaws in his game that I would have said need to be worked on, but now look where he is.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:17

Standulstermen wrote:Spence is a tricky one. He is clearly behind cave but then I wouldn't put tuilagi any better than cave truth be told.

It's so hard to judge mind you. Spenc has things he needs to work on like his distribution and his awareness on pitch and he needs to go after these flaws to deliver. Tuilagi is definitely ahead of him at present and yet I can't help but wonder where spence would be had ulster not shoehorned him into 12 as a crash ball. Either way the only thing I was stating is that I think the wolfhounds have the edge in the centres but using spence further away from the ruck area in attack is key.

Agree with this. It is also why I sincerely hope Kidney will not think of him as a 12 rather than a 13.

by HammerofThunor Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:30

I don't there was too much worry about Tuilagi's distribution, he's always been known as the best at this out of the Tuilagi brothers (not saying much perhaps). He defensive positioning had been a problem though. As long as he's got a centre partner controlling the defensive line (Barritt?) then he's generally alright.

Tuilagi was also the best 13 in England at the time he was called up. He wasn't selected as an risk or experiment.

I've got a feeling we're going to lose this. We've been pretty bad against Ireland at this level in recent times.

by DaveM Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:32

Tuilagi progressed quickly because his performances demanded it. One try against Saracens springs to mind and then at international level he just kept breaking the gainline - pretty impressive for a player who could ahve gone to the 2011 JWC. He has an unusual combination of pace and power, his passing is fine and jumping out of the line occasionally was always going to be relatively easy to fix. If Spence and Cave are as good as or better than Tuilagi then they both have a real chance of becoming the best 13 in world rugby.

by red_stag Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:35

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Could you elaborate? So you think Spence will not be as good as the likes of Tuilagi because England etc can select these young exciting players, while Ireland are too precious? If that is the case I guess I agree, but that is the fault of the Irish management, not Spence's.

Yes thats exactly what Im saying. For several reasons including the ones you list above.

However Ireland are well able to give young players a chance. Earls, Fitzgerald, Murray, O'Brien, Healy, O'Connell, Ferris were all starters for Ireland at a very young age.

But there is sometimes a different set of circumstances at hand.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:40

Agreed stag. However, even in this case, I don't want Spence given anything on a plate. I want him to prove he is better than the other options. I don't like suggestions of playing younger players over the older for the sake of it. They have to earn it. And that is what I think Spence will do, even if it is going to be difficult. He has to start with replacing Cave at Ulster, which will be very hard.

Last season Spence was drafted into the 6 nations squad due to his fantastic performances. Many thought he could be second fiddle to BOD this season, but it hasn't really worked out that way. If it had, he would be starting this 6 nations. But due to being played mostly at 12, Cave's brilliant performances and then injury, he hasn't hit the same heights. I think he will turn this around from this point on though, as Cave is now injured and he has the chance to start at 13.

by **Notch** Thu 26 Jan 2012, 17:57

Yeah I think Tuilagi will be better. Spence can certainly worry him but right now Tuilagi is better. And probably still will be in a few years. Manu is probably even more talented than Alesana.

by thomh Thu 26 Jan 2012, 18:22

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
I honestly think Spence has the potential to be better than Tuilagi is though.

I'd say that Tuilagi has the potential to be better than Tuilagi is as well.

He's got a perfectly good pass and offload but at the world cup our attack was generally so impotent that he started trying to do it all on his own a bit too much. Once he adds that extra variety to his game at international level, which he is perfectly capable of doing, he'll be a seriously top class player. If Spence is going to be just as good then the Lions wont have trouble at 13 for a few tours yet.

by **Notch** Thu 26 Jan 2012, 18:49

So, change of tack, do any of the other Irish posters feel like Chris Henry has a serious shot at getting ahead of Shane Jennings for the bench spot if he has a good game.

1) He's been impressive against Clermont and Leicester in Europe.
2) He's very versatile, well capable of playing 6, 7 or 8.
3) He's been given the responsibility of Captain and we know at least one backrow will be moving into the senior squad after this.
4) Kidney has in the past preferred the more physical 6/8 Denis Leamy to Shane Jennings as bench cover. Jennings has never been a Kidney favourite.
5) Kidney tends to see the responsibilities for work at the breakdown shared amongst the backrow and pack with the 7 as physical and willing to carry ball as the 6 or 8.

I don't expect there will be any surprises and only one back from the core group of 23 will not make the matchday squad versus Wales. But if there was to be a surprise inclusion on the bench for Wales, this would be it.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 26 Jan 2012, 18:54

He should be ahead of Jennings, partly because he is more versatile, but mostly because he has been the most consistent back-row player in Ireland this season. He deserves a shot. He also provides leadership to the team. On the other-hand, Jennings can be called upon if a natural 7 is needed, though I don't think he would actually have the ability to change a game. I prefer the fact Ireland play a very physical back-row, and I feel it suits us.

by Standulstermen Thu 26 Jan 2012, 19:14

I would say both O'Mahoney and Henry should be ahead of jennings already. I would be very surprised to see anyone from outside the 24 (i think) named in the main squad making up the 22 for wales. Just dont see it happeneing.

by ME-109 Thu 26 Jan 2012, 19:30

I agree Henry is better than Jennings. Not sure how the seeding was done with POM as a tackle bag dummy. Should have at least got a game with the wolfhounds he certainly looks ready. Also feel Coughlan hard done by. But hey who knows what the thinking is

by Pot Hale Thu 26 Jan 2012, 19:42

Not many predictions posted for this match.

I'll go with Young John Bulls 18 - 32 Grand Cake Noras

by **Notch** Thu 26 Jan 2012, 19:54

I see Henry as being a guy who could get maybe 10, 15 caps. He'll be a good option to have in the squad. Don't think he'll ever be able to compete for a starting place. He's only a few injuries away I suppose.

Here's what happened in Belfast last year on a miserable Friday night, for those with short memories!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/irish/9383810.stm

I'll be a lot warmer watching this on the TV at home. I predict a narrow defeat though. Saxons 19-17 Wolfhounds.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu 26 Jan 2012, 20:35

Hoping for an English victory, but expecting a Wolfhounds one. Ireland are a bit less of a scratch side than the Saxons, and I expect them to be more cohesive. Going with an Irish lad, so banter will be fierce throughout.

Weather is forecast to be cool and clear at Sandy Park on Saturday, with fairly light winds from the NW. Good rugby playing weather, and the wind doesn't seem to gust and swirl so much from that direction.

21 - 28

by geoff999rugby Thu 26 Jan 2012, 22:16

I actually think Irish players come to the fore later than English players and that there development is more measured - for that reason although he is a year older I would say Spence has further to develop than Manu.

I also think a higher % of Irish players stick around in their 30's.
I put this down to managing players better - an essential requirement given our smaller player pool

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu 26 Jan 2012, 22:43

geoff999rugby wrote:
I actually think Irish players come to the fore later than English players and that there development is more measured - for that reason although he is a year older I would say Spence has further to develop than Manu.

I also think a higher % of Irish players stick around in their 30's.
I put this down to managing players better - an essential requirement given our smaller player pool

Geoff,
are you suggesting that Irish players in Pro12 are rested more than english players in AP? Smile

by thomh Thu 26 Jan 2012, 23:29

Haha!

by **Notch** Thu 26 Jan 2012, 23:38

Well, yeah, thats The Irish Player Management Programme in a nutshell.

The IRFUs Player Conditioning people (linked into the national teams fitness coaches) set a number of minutes each centrally contracted player is allowed to play across different sections of the season on an individual basis.

The provinces are not permitted to exceed that number of minutes. They tend to prioritise the Heineken Cup over the Pro 12 meaning international players who are first choice for the national side are available much less in that competition.

It's actually been quite successful in getting our players fit and fresh for the international windows.

by geoff998rugby Fri 27 Jan 2012, 09:15

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I actually think Irish players come to the fore later than English players and that there development is more measured - for that reason although he is a year older I would say Spence has further to develop than Manu.

I also think a higher % of Irish players stick around in their 30's.
I put this down to managing players better - an essential requirement given our smaller player pool

Geoff,
are you suggesting that Irish players in Pro12 are rested more than english players in AP?

Nope ..I just knew someone would say that

What I am suggesting is that at a younger age the emphasis is on developing their skills and not putting them in the front line until they are physically ready. If any one in England show the required skill set they tend to be thrust into the limelight immediately and imo, often, to their long term detriment.

Once they have reached the required level they are selected on merit. Spence, has only achieved the required level about a year ago, same for Gilroy.

We have other highly talented youngsters coming through the ranks who will only be first team regulars when they are ready - Marshall, Jackson, McKinney, Nelson, Farrell, Birch, Annett.

Better they start their top flight careers at 22 - 24 and last till 33 or so than start at 19 or 20 and be burn out at 28.

by geoff998rugby Fri 27 Jan 2012, 09:20

The Irish Managment Program that Notch refers to is a different issue and whilst it does mean some players are rested more it is my contention that those below the International level - the likes of Henry, Cave, Tuohy etc plus the NIE players miss less games in a season than their English equivalents with the result that rotation is no higher in the Pro12 than in the Aviva.

by Effervescing Elephant Fri 27 Jan 2012, 09:33

I predict beer will be drunk, friends will be made and some great young talent will be playing in one of the finest club grounds in the AP. Who could ask for more! Hug

by **rodders** Fri 27 Jan 2012, 09:44

Carpe Diem wrote:I predict beer will be drunk, friends will be made and some great young talent will be playing in one of the finest club grounds in the AP. Who could ask for more!

+ 1.

Really hope the Wolfhounds can put in a good showing and some guys put their hands up for the senior squad.

I'd love us to get the win here but the performance is more important than the result for me.

I have a feeling that the Saxons may have too much power up front and Keatley may not have the composure needed at 10 but we'll see. Certainly it is a strong Wolfhounds side with a lot of players who are performing very well in the HEC.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 27 Jan 2012, 10:02

geoff998rugby wrote:
Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I actually think Irish players come to the fore later than English players and that there development is more measured - for that reason although he is a year older I would say Spence has further to develop than Manu.

I also think a higher % of Irish players stick around in their 30's.
I put this down to managing players better - an essential requirement given our smaller player pool

Geoff,
are you suggesting that Irish players in Pro12 are rested more than english players in AP?

Nope ..I just knew someone would say that

What I am suggesting is that at a younger age the emphasis is on developing their skills and not putting them in the front line until they are physically ready. If any one in England show the required skill set they tend to be thrust into the limelight immediately and imo, often, to their long term detriment.

Once they have reached the required level they are selected on merit. Spence, has only achieved the required level about a year ago, same for Gilroy.

We have other highly talented youngsters coming through the ranks who will only be first team regulars when they are ready - Marshall, Jackson, McKinney, Nelson, Farrell, Birch, Annett.

Better they start their top flight careers at 22 - 24 and last till 33 or so than start at 19 or 20 and be burn out at 28.

Funny because if you ask most of the internet theyll tell you that Johnson was ignoring this mass of young English talent.....

Mind many of those guys ( except Twelvetrees) do tend to become Premiership regualrs earlier than their Irish counterparts...like this Spencer chap you are all banging on about, 21 and hes been with the A team for a year or so yet barely played for his Province? I get that.

One recurrent theme in criticism of English rugby though is a focus on size and winning at age group level. We keep spanking sides at U18s simply by bigger bigger tougher stronger than thgem. In New Zelans their 18 yr old props have the ball handling skills of our 21 year old half backs (slight possible exageration). The focus is on getting everyone in the country to be able to handle a ball, then seeing who bulks up and fronts up enough to be a pro. In England the cliche is its a case of who is a genetic freak/steroid abusser at the age of 16, lets see if he can be the new Banahan.
Im guessing Ireland tend to have more focus on the skills side for recruitment of young players to the pro ranks.

by geoff998rugby Fri 27 Jan 2012, 10:38

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote: Funny because if you ask most of the internet theyll tell you that Johnson was ignoring this mass of young English talent.....

It was at the club level that my observation was directed rather than the International level.

When you select Wolfhounds team and 3 players are with the seniors, and by time you take out a NIE player, it is quite common for Wolfhounds players not to be first team players, at their provinces, given you are, effectively, are picking from only 3 teams

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 27 Jan 2012, 10:45

Spence has played most games for his province.. last year he had the 13 shirt nailed down, and was the form 13 in Ireland. He got a call up for the 6 nations, but never got capped. This year he has been played at 12 to accommodate Cave, who has been fantastic. However, Spence isn't a 12, and since he has played most games there this season he hasn't hit the heights of last season. He will find it hard getting the 13 shirt back off Cave, but I think he will do it eventually.

I do think people have short memories this year.. Cave has been outstanding of course, and should be the starting 13 currently but Spence last year was absolutely fantastic. People were calling for him to get a RWC call up, and people had been suggesting he is BOD's replacement at 13. It is just this year his progress has been slowed down somewhat.

by **Notch** Fri 27 Jan 2012, 13:11

Calls for Spence to join the Ireland set-up last year very premature, and to criticise him now would also be a knee-jerk reaction.

I do think he still has a large amount left to learn if he is ever to be an international centre.

by **rodders** Fri 27 Jan 2012, 13:17

He needs to nail down a starting spot at Ulster if he is to be an international centre.

He's just back from injury so lets not overhype him until he gets a run of games again to see where hes at.

On a side note when ever I talk to old rugby mates in England or Wales they all ask me about one player...Spence. He's a great talent but he needs time to develop and learn his trade.

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