What's afoot at Welford Road?

36 out. Skivington out. Agulla out.

What's going on?

Who else is on their way in and who's replacing them?

Is Cocker's job safe?

Clearly the thinking has to be a significant squad realignment?

Maybe they think they need a big clearout and freshen things up.

Agulla decision was simple, he wont be available for half the season due to Argentina being in the 4 nations and his AI release.
Hes also not that great, and Tigers have several "not quite a fullback" type wingers on their books.

Skivington...well assuming Deacon is recovering Tigers probably have one more lock than they need. Given that Cockerill hasnt gone on a massive rant about him leaving Ill assume he wasnt so concerned as he was about Billy and is using this to make room in the salary cap.

Twelvetrees and Tuillagi took their own mercenary ways out. Staunton and Grindall assumed to be leaving on the grounds they serve little purpose on this earth.

So youd think he suddenly has a huge warchest to pad out the squad but stay under the cap. However this season they had extra leeway from world cup allowance clauses in the cap, they wont have that next year. I guess the new marquee signings rule will balance that out somewhat though.

So far we have Benjamin supposedly a done deal.
Youd assume a fly half as Flood is bound to be with England and the Saxons may come sniffing round Ford if he ever gets to play. Gopperth has been mentioned, apparently the Newcastle fans hate him despite the fact hes the only player in the side who looks like a professional rugby player.

Does leave plenty of room for wild media speculation.


As for cockerills job ... you never know. Hes showing signs of the pressure thats for sure. The Ulster loss was pretty horrific, its hard to hide that Tigers have been well off the European pace in recent seasons. Distrubingly so this one. Only so much blame can go to the season/salary cap/world cup/ billy twelvetrees agent/the ospreys being a bunch of cheats/cake ... at some point you have to wonder if Tigers arent even the best Premeiership club anymore let alone a Eurpoean giant.

Winning the Jeff would of course make it pretty much impossible to sack him, but we know theres people on the board who didnt want him in the first place and he was fortunate to get the permanant job in the first place. Given Dean Richards wasnt immune to assassination ( thank god in the end, its Quins who got the bloodgate stain) it would be foolish to think Cockerills job is entirely secure.

He has a tough job, Tigers fans and board expect their side to be conmeptitive,. its a juggling act too. You can really see why many sides have split DOR/HC jobs. Neil Back couldnt function without Keys help doing the unglamorous work. Im sure Cockerill does have a good support staff at a club the size of Tigers but should they look at getting someone like Key in to help lighten the squad management load?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Twelvetrees and Tuillagi took their own mercenary ways out.

Any chance you can explain what you mean by this please as I am not sure what they have done that is mercenary.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Twelvetrees and Tuillagi took their own mercenary ways out.

Any chance you can explain what you mean by this please as I am not sure what they have done that is mercenary.

Left to get paid more elsewhere. Its mercenary. Understandable and perfectly normal, but still putting financial reward and personal goals above the club they support. Im not saying they are evil outcasts, just saying they made the rational choice to leave... they werent pushed out.

Did Skivington play out his contract with the Tigers ? or is he being released. Either he was on a short contract with the Tigers or time has passed me by

The sentence sounds bitter the way you have posted it. You surely cannot begrudge someone like Tuilagi who has been an excellent servant to the club a payday in Japan at this stage of his career.

I suspect that Twelvetrees has moved to play in is preferred position of inside centre as opposed to the money. He is a utility back at Tigers, and will never nail down an internaitonal jersey all the time that is the case. if he gets regular gametime at 12 for Gloucester he could be the solution to a problem shirt for England.

I cannot see either of them as being mercenary in any way. Sorry.

Of course Ayerza, Stankovich, Chuter, Hawkins, Brookes, White, Parling, Kitchener, Skivington, Mafi, Salvi, Waldrom, Woods, Crane, Young, Flood, Staunton, Allen, A.Tuilagi, Hamilton, Agulla and Tait weren't mercanaries

Personally, I blame the salary cap

apparently the Newcastle fans hate him despite the fact hes the only player in the side who looks like a professional rugby player.

You do like you Falcons bashing dont you!

Maybe your club should stop taking all ours if they're so bad!! But please feel free to take Jimmy....

HongKongCherry wrote:Of course Ayerza, Stankovich, Chuter, Hawkins, Brookes, White, Parling, Kitchener, Skivington, Mafi, Salvi, Waldrom, Woods, Crane, Young, Flood, Staunton, Allen, A.Tuilagi, Hamilton, Agulla and Tait weren't mercanaries

Personally, I blame the salary cap

Of couse if the system is 'organised' in such a way that 54.54% of the league season is taken up in International windows, it does require two teams to compete.

HongKongCherry wrote:Of course Ayerza, Stankovich, Chuter, Hawkins, Brookes, White, Parling, Kitchener, Skivington, Mafi, Salvi, Waldrom, Woods, Crane, Young, Flood, Staunton, Allen, A.Tuilagi, Hamilton, Agulla and Tait weren't mercanaries

Personally, I blame the salary cap

Yes they are, they made teh same sensible rational choice to come to Tigers for a good wage and better prospects.

Its you lot who are making that into a negative thing. It is a shame though when guys like Tuilagi and Twelvetrees choose to leave a club they have a deep attacthemnt too, although the reverse has happened with other ( Vesty the 4th generation Tiger for example)

And yes to some extent you can blame the salary cap. Although in Tuillagis case theres no way Tiogers would ever match what hes getting paid to fight Godzilla and understanbly Twelvetrees is upset that he only started the majority of Tigers games this season.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote: understanbly Twelvetrees is upset that he only started the majority of Tigers games this season.

A saucer of milk for one is it sir?

Tigers have been in an enviable position where very rarely a player leaves by their own accord. The other 11 sides will tell you that is the reality of sport. Try being more humble and less bitter.

I'm sure you do really know the term mercenary when used in a sporting context is never a positive reflection, so it really is no surprise we've picked up upon your point.

Did Skivington play out his contract with the Tigers ? or is he being released. Either he was on a short contract with the Tigers or time has passed me by.

Skivington signed on a two year deal and has served both of those years. Tigers chose not to renew his deal and LI offered him a three year deal so he could go back down to London where his family are.

Players leaving;
Robinson
Staunton
Grindal
Skivington - LI
Twelvetrees - Glaws
Bucknall
Agulla
Tuilagi - Japan

Contracts under review/pending;
Green - dependent on his return from injury
Waldrom - contract offered
Allen - contract offered

Possible arrivals (rumours so far);
Thompstone - LI
Mullan - Worcester
Benjamin - Worcester
Gopperth - Newcastle
Bowden - LI

Skivington's move to Tigers will have proved financially costly to him, as he turned down a testimonial with Wasps to join Tigers.

Just to note as well, the numbe rof players currently looking likley to leave Tigers is no more than normal really.

Its a sad facet of teh englich club system that we do get high player turnover. Its not just the cap but the lack of central contract and direct attachement you get comapred to say the Irish Provinces.
One cant help but be envious of how few senior players come and go from Munster and Leinster. It must help in buidling long term success of team to have a core of players retained who have played pretty much their entire carreers together, and be able to tranfer that to the national side.
English club rugby is inevitably slidieng toward the soccer situation where club acarreer players are becoming rarer. The annual meat market is well and truely open, and I dont think there can be any question this affects performances on the field.
Thing s like the 36 situation must be disruptive in the dressing room, even if all parties try and mantain a professional attitude.
Cockerills focus should be on the training of his players, not on contract negoatiations with agents. Id like to see Key in as a manager/DOR.

So you think that having central contracts in England would stop players moving to one of the other 11 clubs?

I think a reduced premiership with RFU franchised regions and central contracts would reduce the amount of movement between those sides yes.

But it wont happen like that, and the side effects would be as hideous as what the current system is drifting toward.

Cockerills focus should be on the training of his players, not on contract negoatiations with agents. Id like to see Key in as a manager/DOR.

Cockers is the DOR and has done alright in that regard. The head coach O'Connor is starting to raise questions. Don't see why we'd want Andy Key back unless he was going to re-take his role running the academy as he didn't do a very good job with Leeds did he. Any changes to the coaching staff should start with a defence coach and then proceed with bringing in Daryl Gibson as the new backs coach.

I think they should hire a manager above Cockerill, he doesn't seemed balanced enough to be handling contract negotiations.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cockerills focus should be on the training of his players, not on contract negoatiations with agents. Id like to see Key in as a manager/DOR.

Don't see why we'd want Andy Key back unless he was going to re-take his role running the academy as he didn't do a very good job with Leeds did he.

Seriously ? Are you aware of the resources he had there?
They had the lowest spend of any Premiership club the year he stayed up, it went down from that the next year. Getting a side on the pitch at all was an acheivement. He was even paying his sons academy wage out of his own pocket. He was ditched by the board so they could bring in a player, only they managed to screw that up because they discovered they still had to pay his wage anyway ( being a decent chap he decided not to sue and settled, he could have taken them for a lot more). Even then the club could barely function financialy.

How are Leeds getting on without him? Back had to quit because he literaly couldnt do the job without him.

I think they should hire a manager above Cockerill, he doesn't seemed balanced enough to be handling contract negotiations. .

What's the point in having someone in charge of the team who doesn't decide who he keeps and who is released. Cockerill doesn't run the entire thing by himself there will board members and accountants involved but he needs to play a part.

How are Leeds getting on without him? Back had to quit because he literaly couldnt do the job without him..

I thought they made Key the scape goat and Backie wanted to go it alone, they backed him to get them out of their mess and he failed. I'd happily have Key back in charge of the Tigers academy, he did good things there.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think they should hire a manager above Cockerill, he doesn't seemed balanced enough to be handling contract negotiations. .

What's the point in having someone in charge of the team who doesn't decide who he keeps and who is released. Cockerill doesn't run the entire thing by himself there will board members and accountants involved but he needs to play a part.

How are Leeds getting on without him? Back had to quit because he literaly couldnt do the job without him..

I thought they made Key the scape goat and Backie wanted to go it alone, they backed him to get them out of their mess and he failed. I'd happily have Key back in charge of the Tigers academy, he did good things there.

Back didnt want him to go, but wasnt really given a choice. He saw it out of course but was all at sea with anything beyond the team.


Have to say I keep forgetting that Cocks is technicaly DOR. The way I undredtand his role though is more like a scoccer club manager, he does direct the team on the pitch and gets invoilved in the coaching side of things. I think thats where his strength lies, I dont think hes done such a great job ( or come across as comfortable with) the adminstration and recruitment side of things. Thats why Id suggest bringing in someone to help with that. Highly unlikley it will happen of course.
If we want an academy coach Im guessing Lancaster will be free in a couple of months time....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think they should hire a manager above Cockerill, he doesn't seemed balanced enough to be handling contract negotiations. .

What's the point in having someone in charge of the team who doesn't decide who he keeps and who is released. Cockerill doesn't run the entire thing by himself there will board members and accountants involved but he needs to play a part.

How are Leeds getting on without him? Back had to quit because he literaly couldnt do the job without him..

I thought they made Key the scape goat and Backie wanted to go it alone, they backed him to get them out of their mess and he failed. I'd happily have Key back in charge of the Tigers academy, he did good things there.

Back didnt want him to go, but wasnt really given a choice. He saw it out of course but was all at sea with anything beyond the team.


Have to say I keep forgetting that Cocks is technicaly DOR. The way I undredtand his role though is more like a scoccer club manager, he does direct the team on the pitch and gets invoilved in the coaching side of things. I think thats where his strength lies, I dont think hes done such a great job ( or come across as comfortable with) the adminstration and recruitment side of things. Thats why Id suggest bringing in someone to help with that. Highly unlikley it will happen of course.
If we want an academy coach Im guessing Lancaster will be free in a couple of months time....

Are you American or Australian....? Im sorry to be picky but its Football...

Rugby is actually Rugby Football Union

Please just don't use the word 'soccer' it's a horrible term.

I think thats where his strength lies, I dont think hes done such a great job ( or come across as comfortable with) the adminstration and recruitment side of things.

I think his recruitment has been pretty good by and large. Mafi, Slater, Salvi, Waldrom, Allen, Agulla etc. There's been some astute purchases along the way. I agree that he appears over stretched currently and I think the loss of Ben Herring as a member of the backroom staff was a real blow to him. I'm not keen on a new DOR but an administrator/mentor esque roll could be useful, maybe an experienced DOR coming in on a part time basis could help. Additions to the coaching squad are as key as upgrading the first team at the minute, we MUST have a defence coach in by the summer at the latest!

formerly known as Sam wrote:Please just don't use the word 'soccer' it's a horrible term.

I think thats where his strength lies, I dont think hes done such a great job ( or come across as comfortable with) the adminstration and recruitment side of things.

I think his recruitment has been pretty good by and large. Mafi, Slater, Salvi, Waldrom, Allen, Agulla etc. There's been some astute purchases along the way. I agree that he appears over stretched currently and I think the loss of Ben Herring as a member of the backroom staff was a real blow to him. I'm not keen on a new DOR but an administrator/mentor esque roll could be useful, maybe an experienced DOR coming in on a part time basis could help. Additions to the coaching squad are as key as upgrading the first team at the minute, we MUST have a defence coach in by the summer at the latest!

Why...its an English term for that code of football.
Look at the sign on Welford road, Leicsester Football Club. I dont want that mistaken for what gone on in and around the crisp bowl down the road.

Anyway I think we agree that all is not quite rosey. Looking back though the same happened after the 2003 WC, followed by some great seaosns.

My dad is a 70 years old Welshman and he calls it soccer. He says thats what most people of his generation called it.

The proper name of football is Association (soccer) Football.

Soccer is an English term, although we associate it with the US. It is a shortened version of 'Association Football', which is the official name and what it was called back in the day and by gowales' grandpop!

There's a bit of trivia for you!

Bathite wrote:Soccer is an English term, although we associate it with the US. It is a shortened version of 'Association Football', which is the official name and what it was called back in the day and by gowales' grandpop!

There's a bit of trivia for you!

Quite, its a personal bugbear of mine that so many rugby fans allow soccer monopolisation of the word "football".
To and Australian, American and some Irish folk its confussing.

To someone who supports Leicester Football Club its insulting.

Rugby, Gaylick, and Aussie Rules are all known by their codes name ...so why not Association? They are all football. Theres a word to distinguish it ( and in what I said it was quite useful to do so) from other codes, dont be embaressed to use it just because some people think its an Americanism. It isnt.

Why...its an English term for that code of football

Doesn't make any difference I still don't like it. Good piece of trivia though it is. The term is used almost uniformerly in a marketing sense and normally with the American media spin (in my short life time anyway) so the term just annoys.

Looking back though the same happened after the 2003 WC, followed by some great seaosns..

Hence why I'm not massively concerned but we are short in some areas and have been for a while. For instance the amount of pace out wide, the laboured defensive line and the lack of nous in the tactical kicking game when Flood and Murphy aren't combining (sometimes even when they are).

Just because some in England always associate football with soccer doesn't mean others do.

We call it soccer to distinquish between it and the GAA version.

Sam yep,

Defense seems to be based on the assumption that the breakdown would be reffed as it was last year, Murphy replacement question is still open, and yes we need that trike winger ( Benjamin if he does come I beleive a cracking signing)
Im probably overly negative about Tigers and English rugby in general at the minute. But that showing gainst Ulster has started to give me the same feelings that 8 years of England underacheivement did, maybe we just arent that good anymore and that spell at the very top was a breif moment in history.
Seeing a guy who had the potential to make Tigers a better side walk off to a rival adds to that. We need Ford to step up like Youngs did. We need a hooker, and we need a rampaging prop.
I hate to say it but over reliance on the scrum could be costing Tiogers. Its an obsessions, and one you cant see cockerill letting go of. We have the best stable of scrumaging props in club rugby, but at a cost to their mobility and the rest of the squad ( the wage bill must be huge in that area) . There was an interesting point from the Irish forwards coach ( OK hes an Aussie!) where he discussed stats from scrums...in the world cup hardly any led directly to serious attacking moves getting teh ball out from rucks was far more importnat as an attacking weapon, as ee sees it scrums are for retaining posession .. the 5 metere law hasnt as had been expected turned them into a great platform for plaunching attacks. Of course it never hurts to have a solid scrum, but its not as big a force as it once was. We know Tigers suck at the breakdown. Id say you could win the HC with a reasonable scrum, but not without bossing at rucks.

and we need a rampaging prop

Castro and Ayerza rampage when given the opportunity. Cole has improved in that area, Brookes is a big unit when ball carrying is being done and the new Samoan prop is a real ball carrying bosher. It's pointless if we can't play the ref and find a way of clearing the rucks though. At the minute the opposition are finding ways to slow our ball and we're not doing enough to stop them and it's leading to us attacking a set defence that is coming up as quick as our attack.

Hooker is becomming a cause for concern, Chuter is looking increasingly passed it even if he is still giving 100%. Hawkins isn't big enough and though Tom Youngs looks to be a very promising player he is out with a serious back injury. Something needs to be upgraded there this summer.

Id say you could win the HC with a reasonable scrum, but not without bossing at rucks..

Hence why current kings of the breakdown, Leinster, won the title last year despite their scrum taking a kicking in the final.

We have the best stable of scrumaging props in club rugby

You see to me thats the main job of a prop...let the second rows....back rows and heftier backs do the crash ball business....

And im sorry i brought it up...but the word Soccer just sounds horrible....its like getting a lighting shock every time someone says it....and as Sam rightly says it would appear to have become far more recognised since the US and other nations have become more known to the game.

Bathite wrote:Soccer is an English term, although we associate it with the US. It is a shortened version of 'Association Football', which is the official name and what it was called back in the day and by gowales' grandpop!

There's a bit of trivia for you!

would you like a bit more trivia? well I'll go on then!

Did you know packets of crisps only expire on Saturdays?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

We have the best stable of scrumaging props in club rugby

You see to me thats the main job of a prop...let the second rows....back rows and heftier backs do the crash ball business....

And im sorry i brought it up...but the word Soccer just sounds horrible....its like getting a lighting shock every time someone says it....and as Sam rightly says it would appear to have become far more recognised since the US and other nations have become more known to the game.

Well to be honest I like to use the word to annoy fans of the game

If Tigers had a hooker like Brits then I wouldnt be so concerened that they dont have a prop like Tongalthiukjhjkb?Healy . Its a common play for sides to look like the front row guy is going to secure the ball but instead just take and run through. It causes all sorts of problems for defences trying to organise. Its just one of those killer plays I see top HC sides doing and Tigers not. We spend a lot of money on our front row but it only really excels in one area, and the relative importance of the scrum has slipped., In other facets of the game the front row is only average.
The new Samoan chap could turn out to be a good find though, much like Mafi who turned out to be a great piece of business (partly luck). Although I doubt he will ever rise to be the sort of player that could rise above "valuable squad member" into one who you really miss when hes not in the team. That for me is a problem Tigers have. Theres a big squad of good players, but they lack real star quality through the first 15. Murphy isnt quite the player he was at his peak, Tuilagi snr only seems to put 50% effort in these day etc.


Im in a very negative mood about Tigers.

nathan wrote:

Bathite wrote:Soccer is an English term, although we associate it with the US. It is a shortened version of 'Association Football', which is the official name and what it was called back in the day and by gowales' grandpop!

There's a bit of trivia for you!

would you like a bit more trivia? well I'll go on then!

Did you know packets of crisps only expire on Saturdays?

I can tell youre from round here!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

nathan wrote:

Bathite wrote:Soccer is an English term, although we associate it with the US. It is a shortened version of 'Association Football', which is the official name and what it was called back in the day and by gowales' grandpop!

There's a bit of trivia for you!

would you like a bit more trivia? well I'll go on then!

Did you know packets of crisps only expire on Saturdays?

I can tell youre from round here!

:p

Well to be honest I like to use the word to annoy fans of the game

That for me is a problem Tigers have. Theres a big squad of good players, but they lack real star quality through the first 15. Murphy isnt quite the player he was at his peak,

Dont you worry your little cotton socks...we've got a whole host of quality kids coming through who you can come and take off us in the next year or so

Tuilagi snr only seems to put 50% effort in these day etc.

I thought he was off to Japan anyway..

Im in a very negative mood about Tigers. .

When you feel like that...just imagine being a Falcons fan for five minutes...and im sure you'll then feel much better....

Alesana is off but it would be nice to win something this year after failing to add any silverware to the cupboard last season. Send him on his way with a winners medal, after all he's been a good servant to the club.

Dont you worry your little cotton socks...we've got a whole host of quality kids coming through who you can come and take off us in the next year or so

We need a classy ball carrying hooker to compete with Tom Youngs, an experienced 10/12 who can help develop the younger players, a flyer or two on the wings and a full back to replace Geordan. What you got in those departments.

Well to be honest we're looking for a decent hooker..Michael Mayhew looks like he could fill the spot though...

Well obviously Fitzpatrick is your 12...though not experienced...

Feel free to take Mr Gpperth...

Young Catterick is gonna be good...could mould him to 15..but think he's destined for 10.

And Joel Hodgson is a 10 but will prob go to 9 due to his small stature...but then you have already taken a 9 off us.

Others to watch:

Mr Beaumont Jr - Second Row
Joe Robinson - Back Row
Mark Wilson - Back Row

But im hoping that we keep all these and rebuild the team around them all in the championship next season.

To be honest we're well stocked in young second rows as we have Slater, Green, Kitchener and Mafi who are all 23 or under. Backrow is okay in the short term though there may be a question mark over number 8 in regards to Waldrom.

Don't think we'll be 'borrowing' from Falcons this summer. Unless Catterick is signed as 10/15 cover but that is pretty unlikely.

Arent there some New Zealander world cup winners who dont like French and Japanese food?

Those are the sort of players English clubs used to sign who made a real difference to the squad. Joel Stransky and Gibson out of retirement?

Wow we might actually be able to being to assemble a quality young side after all then Sam...

I thik it would be interesting to see what the % of foreigners are at clubs now...and where they come from. I'd bet overall there is a decrease as clubs seem to be using their academys alot more...however i suspect there has been a rise in players from Eastern Europe such as Russia, Georgia etc...

Gopperth is the reason Flacons have survived in the top flight for so long, the collective disability of the team is the reason they're going down

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wow we might actually be able to being to assemble a quality young side after all then Sam...

I thik it would be interesting to see what the % of foreigners are at clubs now...and where they come from. I'd bet overall there is a decrease as clubs seem to be using their academys alot more...however i suspect there has been a rise in players from Eastern Europe such as Russia, Georgia etc...

No question its been dropping for the last few years, certainly in first team matchday sqauds, from the peak.

The Euro rate, lack of increas ein the cap despite inflation, sudden appearaqnce of Japanese monster pay days, plus the niggest names going home to fight for WC places means theres a lot less top class foriegn players in England now. Theres a fair few sides stacked with second string Welsh/Irish/Scottish players still but where are the top class Sanzars ? The value of Argies has dropped now they are going AWOL for the 4 nations, and the flow of polynesians has stabilised. Italians have never really come here, but now they have two robio sides you wont see them.
Maybe a few more Eastern Euros will get picked up, but it does seem the days of 60% foriegn first 15s are gone.


This coincides with continued mediocrity by Team England and a downturn in HC results.

McCaffery said recenty that its 68% on average in match day squads.

Some are the same they've always been. I think Wasps are 'worse' now but Sale and Saracens are much 'better'

HammerofThunor wrote:McCaffery said recenty that its 68% on average in match day squads.

Some are the same they've always been. I think Wasps are 'worse' now but Sale and Saracens are much 'better'

Looking at the matchday sqauds from the last rounbd of premiership matches surely 68% EQ?
Its only Irish and Newcastle who at a glance through really buck the trend of a majority English side.

Theres a few dual qualified players around, and a bunch of the foriegns are not tied so in theory could become EQ . I may be goign bonkers but I dont see where that 68% comes from if he means 68% non qualfied.

Sorry 68% English qualified players

Ok.

had a look back at equivelant matchday squads from 4 years ago ( yeah I know nerrrd) and actually yeah its about the same, most clubs slightly over that 32% foriegn ( Tigers were way over) but a few with almost none.

Going way off topic...check out this Newcastle this time 4 years ago had Dowson. Dickson, Parling and Visser on the BENCH, Tait Wilko, Noon (cough), Flood, Hayman , Golding , May , and Woods in the side.
Its amazing to think they were rubbish then (only Lancasters Leeds finished below them) and just how much they have run down the squad since, its not all Tigers fault ( they can have Grindall back)