Jason Tovey To Quit Dragons & Sign For The Blues

First topic message reminder :

Finally it seems the Blues have signed a decent Fly half

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/01/27/jason-tovey-poised-to-quit-newport-gwent-dragons-and-join-cardiff-blues-91466-30206865/

IronMike wrote:

wales606 wrote:Anyone know when Lydiate's contract is up?

Just heard that he wants to play alongside Warburton apparently...

Hmmmm

Lydiate, Warburton, Delve


Sounds good to me

I was thinking that - Especially when you can take Pretorious and Paterson of the bench to fit into that backrow/second row unit.


I wish...

Tovey, Delve, Lydiate, a massive THP and things might look up for the Blues next season though.

Cant see them all happening though, still...

gowales wrote:He wasn't dropped. It was a LV cup match for christs sake

I didn't say he WAS dropped for the LV game , I said if he were to be dropped it would be to break in Steffan, I don't see us signing a big name 10

gcBlues wrote:No, we can afford him because we got guys like Rush, Parks, Tika, Nugget and various others which we won't have to budget for next year. Rush & Nugget alone will free up £500,000 a year or there about and with others leaving, there will be money to bring in players who will replace them but will, at this point in time, be cheaper

Can you?
your wage budget last year was £5m, this season it is £4.4m, you have to knock off £900k, before you get inside the newly announced salary cap of £3.5m.

That's just for the Heineken Cup squad Alyn, so my guess is you can name a HC squad of, say, 28 of the top players which won't need to include the wider squad numbers and associated salaries (I.e. the further 15 or so players in the full squad). That may make a difference.

AlynDavies wrote:

gcBlues wrote:No, we can afford him because we got guys like Rush, Parks, Tika, Nugget and various others which we won't have to budget for next year. Rush & Nugget alone will free up £500,000 a year or there about and with others leaving, there will be money to bring in players who will replace them but will, at this point in time, be cheaper

Can you?
your wage budget last year was £5m, this season it is £4.4m, you have to knock off £900k, before you get inside the newly announced salary cap of £3.5m.

The player budget is lower than that - It is about 4mil.

Griff wrote:That's just for the Heineken Cup squad Alyn, so my guess is you can name a HC squad of, say, 28 of the top players which won't need to include the wider squad numbers and associated salaries (I.e. the further 15 or so players in the full squad). That may make a difference.

The Maximum and recommended Heinaken cup squad size is 38 mate.

OK, fair enough but the point really is that if their wage bill is currently £5m, they do not have to declare all of this to be under the HC salary cap, if that makes sense. How many players do the regions have on their books? Say they have 50, then 38 may come in under the salary cap??!

Griff wrote:OK, fair enough but the point really is that if their wage bill is currently £5m, they do not have to declare all of this to be under the HC salary cap, if that makes sense. How many players do the regions have on their books? Say they have 50, then 38 may come in under the salary cap??!

Sorry Griff, I hate to contradict you again , but last season it was £5m, this season it dropped to £4.4m.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/01/20/blues-paying-price-of-failure-says-peter-thomas-91466-28017869/

^ reference

It will now have to drop another £900k to £3.5m to be in line with the agreed salary cap.

The current Cardiff Blues squad is 42 players. 38 of which should of been named for Europe.

I think Tovey will be a huge loss as he creates so much for Brew, without Tovey Brew will be half the player he is, hence Brew's Wales performances. Is this the reason Brew is rumored to be leaving the Dragons?

Are the wobbly wheels coming off at the Dragons or is it the WM making up stories like props Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins looking at leaving their clubs when they are about to sign new contracts?

AlynDavies wrote:

Griff wrote:OK, fair enough but the point really is that if their wage bill is currently £5m, they do not have to declare all of this to be under the HC salary cap, if that makes sense. How many players do the regions have on their books? Say they have 50, then 38 may come in under the salary cap??!

Sorry Griff, I hate to contradict you again , but last season it was £5m, this season it dropped to £4.4m.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/01/20/blues-paying-price-of-failure-says-peter-thomas-91466-28017869/

^ reference

It will now have to drop another £900k to £3.5m to be in line with the agreed salary cap.

The current Cardiff Blues squad is 42 players. 38 of which should of been named for Europe.

Squad budget include Academy players (I think) - It wont be the same for the HC, plus a lot of high profile players are retiring or signing new (cheaper) contracts next season. Tovey wont be on anymore that Parks was.

Fair enough Alyn, cheers for the info. The Dragons are reportedly £1m under the cap at £2.5m. I'd hate for the other regions to have to struggle like the Dragons do, but that's what it now looks like if they have to shed a load of their high earners to come under the cap. Put it this way, if the regions struggle to make the HC quarters with a £4.4m (well done blues on qualifying this time, I'm guessing the Scarlets and ospreys spend similar?) then £3.5m is going to be even harder.

glamorganalun wrote:I think Tovey will be a huge loss as he creates so much for Brew, without Tovey Brew will be half the player he is, hence Brew's Wales performances. Is this the reason Brew is rumored to be leaving the Dragons?

Are the wobbly wheels coming off at the Dragons or is it the WM making up stories like props Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins looking at leaving their clubs when they are about to sign new contracts?

The wheels have always been wobbly Alun, yet they've never fallen off. They've just been patched up, and I expect this status quo to continue. We'll expose some youngsters who'll prove to be future stars and will leave and some youngsters who will not be good enough but we'll be forced to play them as we have no one else. We'll buy some overseas players out of necessity, cheap ones because we can't afford the top players, and they'll be average like their wages. Nothing will change, do don't worry about us.

glamorganalun wrote:I think Tovey will be a huge loss as he creates so much for Brew, without Tovey Brew will be half the player he is, hence Brew's Wales performances. Is this the reason Brew is rumored to be leaving the Dragons?

Are the wobbly wheels coming off at the Dragons or is it the WM making up stories like props Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins looking at leaving their clubs when they are about to sign new contracts?

I dont know this as fact but chatting to a few people in the Dragons club house, Brew is apparently annoyed that Gatland is constantly over looking him, despite him scoring tries for fun last year Gatland still picked Tom Prydie and George north ahead of him, now Cuthbert and Harry Robinson have been selected ahead of him too.

I think Brew has apparently decided he simply isnt in Gatlands thinking after that poor game against Namibia, and is on the verge of signing a big contract with Perpignan in France.

I actually heard that being discussed in the club house and the Hazell stand by different people during the Prato game, so I assume there must be an element of truth in it.

wales606 wrote:Squad budget include Academy players (I think) - It wont be the same for the HC, plus a lot of high profile players are retiring or signing new (cheaper) contracts next season. Tovey wont be on anymore that Parks was.

It's possible... there is also a difference between an Operational budget and a wage budget, with the former covering all costs from the stadium, tea ladies, washing of the kit, staff in the club shop etc etc.

He wasn't THAT bad against Namibia , most players weren't great in the first half and he got a try

munkian wrote:He wasn't THAT bad against Namibia , most players weren't great in the first half and he got a try

I agree, I'm just repeating what was being said around Rodney Parade on match day mate.
Apparently the Welsh management weren't happy with his game against Namibia because he made several errors.

his last game was against Namibia, and lets be honest with Shane Williams retiring, if Brew was ever going to get a chance to have a run it was going to be in this 6 Nations, yet Cuthbert and 18 year old Robinson have got call ups, so Brew has had a slap in the face which ever you look at it.

AlynDavies wrote:

Sorry Griff, I hate to contradict you again , but last season it was £5m, this season it dropped to £4.4m.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/01/20/blues-paying-price-of-failure-says-peter-thomas-91466-28017869/

^ reference

It will now have to drop another £900k to £3.5m to be in line with the agreed salary cap.

The current Cardiff Blues squad is 42 players. 38 of which should of been named for Europe.

I could be wrong, but I reckon the £5m figure quoted in the walesonline article is actually the wage bill for the whole organisation ie 90 or so personnel and not just the first team squad. I say this because the wage bill for 97 personnel was just over £4.8m in 2009.

gcBlues wrote:

No, we can afford him because we got guys like Rush, Parks, Tika, Nugget and various others which we won't have to budget for next year. Rush & Nugget alone will free up £500,000 a year or there about and with others leaving, there will be money to bring in players who will replace them but will, at this point in time, be cheaper

What about the rumoured loss of over £2m in last financial year?
The true figure will be known in a few weeks from now, but it's frightening don't you think?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

gcBlues wrote:

No, we can afford him because we got guys like Rush, Parks, Tika, Nugget and various others which we won't have to budget for next year. Rush & Nugget alone will free up £500,000 a year or there about and with others leaving, there will be money to bring in players who will replace them but will, at this point in time, be cheaper

What about the rumoured loss of over £2m in last financial year?
The true figure will be known in a few weeks from now, but it's frightening don't you think?

We'll... it's a lot of Pies Peter needs to sell!

AlynDavies wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

gcBlues wrote:

No, we can afford him because we got guys like Rush, Parks, Tika, Nugget and various others which we won't have to budget for next year. Rush & Nugget alone will free up £500,000 a year or there about and with others leaving, there will be money to bring in players who will replace them but will, at this point in time, be cheaper

What about the rumoured loss of over £2m in last financial year?
The true figure will be known in a few weeks from now, but it's frightening don't you think?

We'll... it's a lot of Pies Peter needs to sell!

Peter sold all his pies back in 1988.
That being said, what's your opinion on the rumoured £2m+ loss? Shocking don't you think?

Cardiff Dave wrote:Peter sold all his pies back in 1988.
That being said, what's your opinion on the rumoured £2m+ loss? Shocking don't you think?

Well... it's clear Welsh rugby cant generate the money needed to pay top players salaries in line with curent markets rates.
Welsh rugby will have to learn to live to it's means. All 4 regions have a lot of young talent coming through the academies so lets let the best players make good money in France and give the youngsters their chance in the regions.

Or to put it another way... Welsh rugby is in the shítter by the looks of things.

AlynDavies wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Peter sold all his pies back in 1988.
That being said, what's your opinion on the rumoured £2m+ loss? Shocking don't you think?

Well... it's clear Welsh rugby cant generate the money needed to pay top players salaries in line with curent markets rates.
Welsh rugby will have to learn to live to it's means. All 4 regions have a lot of young talent coming through the academies so lets let the best players make good money in France and give the youngsters their chance in the regions.

Or to put it another way... Welsh rugby is in the shítter by the looks of things.

OK, but I can't really comment on the rest, but what's your opinion about Cardiff Blues in particular? If it's true they lost over £2m then something has to give. They certainly can't carry on the way they are.

Cardiff Dave wrote:OK, but I can't really comment on the rest, but what's your opinion about Cardiff Blues in particular? If it's true they lost over £2m then something has to give. They certainly can't carry on the way they are.

I would be amazed if they lost that amount of money, however I regularly go to their club shop and at the end of last season their shelves were over flowing with merchandise that hadn't been sold throughout the season. The ASDA there has a Halal meat section, and my kids love Smithys Toy Shop, so I normally wangle a trip in on the way out.

I also regularly go to the Ospreys shop and the shelves were stripped bare by the end of the season (Taybans is my home from home). I would certainly say merchandise sales might of been a cause especially clearing up the excess stock. I also think they had planned on letting Martyn Williams go at the same time for Shanklin but kept him on for another season so maybe that wasnt factored in so it had an effect of throwing their budget off. I guess if you add in the weak attendences, As well as Bradley Davies getting that big new contract might of hit finances.

I think £2m is wide of the mark though, Peter Thomas is not careless.

AlynDavies wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:OK, but I can't really comment on the rest, but what's your opinion about Cardiff Blues in particular? If it's true they lost over £2m then something has to give. They certainly can't carry on the way they are.

I would be amazed if they lost that amount of money, however I regularly go to their club shop and at the end of last season their shelves were over flowing with merchandise that hadn't been sold throughout the season. The ASDA there has a Halal meat section, and my kids love Smithys Toy Shop, so I normally wangle a trip in on the way out.

I also regularly go to the Ospreys shop and the shelves were stripped bare by the end of the season (Taybans is my home from home). I would certainly say merchandise sales might of been a cause especially clearing up the excess stock. I also think they had planned on letting Martyn Williams go at the same time for Shanklin but kept him on for another season so maybe that wasnt factored in so it had an effect of throwing their budget off. I guess if you add in the weak attendences, As well as Bradley Davies getting that big new contract might of hit finances.

I think £2m is wide of the mark though, Peter Thomas is not careless.

Be prepared to be amazed at the end of Feb.
Peter Thomas is not Cardiff by the way and the club is in debt not him. The club existed long before he was born and will continue, hopefully, long after he has departed.

AlynDavies wrote:his last game was against Namibia, and lets be honest with Shane Williams retiring, if Brew was ever going to get a chance to have a run it was going to be in this 6 Nations, yet Cuthbert and 18 year old Robinson have got call ups, so Brew has had a slap in the face which ever you look at it.

I'd feel p!ssed off too if I was him.

lp,

Was down the Brewery Field on Friday and had similar discussion with few of the boys.

You can't really blame Brew if he did go to France now, I can understand Cuthberts' inclusion but to pick Robinson over Brew does seem a slap in the face.

We all know Brew has his faults (who doesn't) but committmentand workrate aren't among them. If you want a player who will give you 110% everytime then he's your man.

He does it week in week out for the Dragons and coaches can't ask anymore. He's now probably thinking well sod it, I am not getting the recognition so lets take the money.

i am sorry for the dragons having the players they developed poached by other clubs.

but...

yeah, tovey would go great at the blues. we have great forwards and backs but neither sweeney or parks act as the pivot we really need.

i feel bad for the drags but the blues really need a 10.

you can have ceri back if you like and ill throw in parks for free.

i feel a 'let's trade' thread coming on.

dog,

Not a dig but why can't the Blues seem to develop or find a 10 in their 'Region' or academy.

As for your trade idea you know where you can stick Sweeny and Parks

bedfordwelsh wrote:dog,

Not a dig but why can't the Blues seem to develop or find a 10 in their 'Region' or academy.

As for your trade idea you know where you can stick Sweeny and Parks

Come on, the Ospreys took Dai Flanagan off our hands - You could at least take Sweeney back...

wales606 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:dog,

Not a dig but why can't the Blues seem to develop or find a 10 in their 'Region' or academy.

As for your trade idea you know where you can stick Sweeny and Parks

Come on, the Ospreys took Dai Flanagan off our hands - You could at least take Sweeney back...

No no no no no no no no no no.

NOOOOOOO

bedfordwelsh wrote:dog,

As for your trade idea you know where you can stick Sweeny and Parks

you love ceri.

everone at the dave was gutted when he left.

what was it you guys used to say to him when he took his shots at goal

Spoiler:

you loved that guy

I actually think Sweeney is a half decent player. Certainly the times I've seen him play for the blues he seems to get the back line moving better than Parks. The problem I have is that he couldn't be bothered at the dragons. It's not like he was playing for us for free! He was taking a salary so should have had the decency to put the effort in.

For the blues I think the loss of Nicky Robinson was a big blow. He was much maligned in his formative years but then started playing really well, and the blues backs were the most potent I've seen them with him at the helm. Shame he chose to leave.

we havent ever really recovered from the loss of nick. flanigan, sweeney, snk, parks. there are few lists where ceri sweeney come out top.

dai yawn was an idiot. now we have two inexperienced idiots at the helm. B&B would have got lost if they had looked all over for a 10. tovey was nearest.

This would definitely be a good move for the Blues and Tovey. Blues because they desperately need a decent fly-half, but it is probably worth getting some good enough back up to him as he can be injury prone. Perhaps Gavin? Blues will have a tasty backline next season, now all they need is the pack to give them platform. Sweeney has been linked with a move back to Pontypridd right?

A good move for Tovey as he should surely now get picked for Wales honours seeing as everyone in Wales is anti-gwent. Even Wales U20's have refused to select the best no.8 in Wales, the one who recently featured in the OSpreys/Dragons LV cup game.

I reckon the Blues should try and sign Flanagan as well if they're gonna lose both Sweeney and Parks.

gowales wrote:I reckon the Blues should try and sign Flanagan as well if they're gonna lose both Sweeney and Parks.

Morgannwg wrote:A good move for Tovey as he should surely now get picked for Wales honours seeing as everyone in Wales is anti-gwent.

The accusation that Dragons players get overlooked by the Welsh coaching team because of the region they play for doesn't really hold water these days. It used to seem that way, when Ryan Jones and J feckin' T were getting selected over Toby and Dan Lydiate, but playing for the Dragons isn't the reason Jason Tovey hasn't been called up to the Wales squad this season. He's been called into the national squad twice in the past, so there's no issue there.

munkian wrote:If he was dropped it would only be to get Jones up to scratch for next season, not as punishment. Should we use him for the Kaaaaarrrdifffff re match ?

I do genuinely think this is the best option for us, chuck Steffan in now and give him until the end of the season to work on his game. If we chuck him in at first choice at the start of the next season by Xmas we'll have nothing to play for again. I know that sounds like I'm slating him but I'm not, he just needs to iron out a few issues in his game. I think Jones 10 and Robling 12 could be great for us.

It doesn't look like a done deal, might be staying with the Dragons after all :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16937038

If we can keep him it would be fanatastic news for us and maybe ward of a few others that they won't get our stars without a fight.

With the likes of Lydiate, Faletau, Brew, Burns, Harries and Lewis Evans all being involved with the Welsh set up of over the recent seasons it also proves that players don't have to move away from Dave to get International honours.

It would be great if we could keep him. It's going to come down to how much we can afford to offer him versus what the Blues would offer (I thought they were skint anyway) and whether the prospect of Heineken Cup rugby is enough to tempt him away.

C'mon Dragons, do something right for once, and keep Brew too.

Tovey can play 15 as well as 10? Does he fancy a move to Leicestershire?

I thought the Blues were keen on McLeod from Sale as their 10 for next season?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Tovey can play 15 as well as 10? Does he fancy a move to Leicestershire?

I thought the Blues were keen on McLeod from Sale as their 10 for next season?

Nope, http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16943641

looks like toveys agent is doing his job, and trying to get the best deal for his client. thought it was strange at the time that the agent went public stating that tovey had only "verbally agreed" a deal with the blues. think is motives are trying to play the blues off against the dragons (or any other team interested in offering him a contract)

shame that the sale boys have signed extensions to stay in cheshire, all 3 of them would have been good additions to the welsh regions, especially the dragons. peel would have added experience and a quicker services, mcleod can cover 10,12 & 15 & jones could have replaced willis's squad place at hooker. although with Lloyd Burns, Steve Jones and Rhys Buckley?there it's not the main area the squad needs strengthening.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16943641

Nope, he is coming to the Blues