Jason Tovey To Quit Dragons & Sign For The Blues

First topic message reminder :

Finally it seems the Blues have signed a decent Fly half

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/01/27/jason-tovey-poised-to-quit-newport-gwent-dragons-and-join-cardiff-blues-91466-30206865/

Gav. I completely agree. Tovey has an awful lot still to prove. But it's the old saying. It's who you play for. Tovey wouldn't have been top dollar and you would think that we could offer a decent wage for him when you think Charteris and Willis will both be off the bill.
I don't see Lydiate or Faletau staying in Wales. There's bigger money elsewhere.
At the moment it's a vicious circle. We aren't good enough to make the HC so players will leave, thus making us even weaker and it'll just go on and on.
Where's Sir Terry Matthews when you need him?!?!?!?!

Where's Sir Terry Matthews when you need him?

He is not a fan of Gwent rugby from what i've heard... may just be grape vine talk but surely if he was going to put money in he would of done that by now.

We need a kick start of cash to get us going and improve the situation but we also need to be self sufficient once the lump sum had dried up.

As I said earlier he has stagnated a bit this season, he burst onto the scene but has'nt really kicked on as much as I thought he would.He has had a lot of injury problems which has'nt helped and theres been a few moans that he did'nt look interested in a couple of games this year.
I know its frustrating but we've managed to keep Dan and Toby and I'm sure they're as ambitious as anyone, so maybe he's had a falling out with the management,If thats the case nothing would keep him at the Dragons.
It'll be interesting to see what the club response is but we just got to dust ourselves down and get on it

Here's the big question, although it pains me to ask it and to hear the responses: do we need 4 regions in Wales? Would there be much difference if we went down to 3?

Personally I think Yes we do need 4. Although the players may be leaving, the Dragons, or any region for that matter, is still a place where players can get game time and announce themselves on the professional circuit. IMO going down to 3 would squeeze the talent out of Wales more than it is now. We should have 4, even if that does mean that one of them is pants and players use the team as a springboard for a contract elsewhere.

The problem, as someone alluded to earlier, is that it is a vicious circle. How do you attract players when so many are leaving? Star players want to play with the best, so if there's no-one good at a team then no-one wants to join. Fickle/greedy players will come to a poor team if the money is right, but we haven't got that either.

Perhpas the best solution, as I mentioned before, is for 4 regions but one (the Dragons) to be the offical development region and to be the place for young and developing talent to be nurtured in the slightly easier environment of the Pro 12 and Amlin, and where they'll probably get game time. Getting everyone to agree with this will be an impossible task though I think!

The other alternative is to bring in big name foreign stars so that the fans come and the youngsters want to play with them (so to speak) but we already get lambasted for bringing in 2 or 3 foreigners, what would happen with an influx???

The problem with having 3 regions is how much it limits Warren Gatland with selection. Take a look at last season. At no 8 the Scarlets had okoume and Morgan, the Blues, Rush, the Dragons an uncapped Faletau and the O's had Collins. If Faletau was at one of the other regions, he would be sat behind a foreigner and surely wouldnt have been exposed to top-level rugby. In last years 6n's we had that useless lump Rhian Jones playing 8, a guy who is immobile he's now considered a lock.

It would'nt be sustainable crowds are not great now who's going to pay to watch a development region thats what the accademies and feeder clubs are for.

In theory with the salary cap coming in the the Dragons will be on a more even footing with the other Regions.

BUT if players feel they are being overlooked because they with us and if they have International aspirations then they will look to move.

It looks like Dragons are turning into the Welsh version of Connacht. Connacht are on the way up and they're on the way down.

I expected this move as posted on my transfer news thread.

I also at this junction wouldnt rule out the Blues going in for Evans and possibly Martyn Thomas. Just a hunch.

As a Dragons fan it does bother me to see these players heading elsewhere but I am glad we are staying financially solvent. The real issue here isn't about the best players leaving the Region but the fact that we are struggeling on the youth recruitment front. The other regions seem to have some of the strongest young talent in Wales as well.

I'm hoping that some of the up and coming players see the Dragons as a better place to get exposure and start heading our way. The Ospreys have at least half a dozen players who should be playing regularly. If the Dragons could sign these I dont think the losses would be so hard to take.

The reality though is that Ospreys wont let these go to rival welsh sides incase it gives them an edge. They would rather see them exposed elsewhere on loan moves which is a shame.

I heard Shingler was being lined up as a replacement but I think he still has a season left at Irish so can't see that happening.

What I hope happens though is that they persist with young talent because I would hate to see rejects from other regions signed.

I know Parks, S. Jones, Sweeny & Henson are all out of Contract but I dont think they would add anything to the Dragons over a season or two.

The point being if the Dragons keep producing 10's (for example) eventually the other Regions would run out of spaces to sign them so we should be able to retain them by default. After all there are only so many starting spots in Wales so providing the youth development is good.

I would however be really concerned if the players we produced start heading accross the boarder which is why I think the WRU need to review the Selection Criteria. I apprecaite Gatland isn't 100% keen on this as sometimes some of his players are not offered contracts by Welsh Regions but in the long term it would make the Dragons a more viable choice for players wishing to play International Rugby.

I doubt though we will ever be in the top tier of teams in the Rabbo.

bedfordwelsh wrote:In theory with the salary cap coming in the the Dragons will be on a more even footing with the other Regions.

BUT if players feel they are being overlooked because they with us and if they have International aspirations then they will look to move.

Bedford, it only gives us an even footing if we've got enough to reach the salary cap! We haven't, and Edwards says we spend about £1m under it! If the others spend around the salary cap amount then someone needs to generate the extra £1m (either through sponsorship, merchandise, benefactor, WRU handout, selling lemonade, whatever) or we will still not be on a level playing field.

Griff,

Fair one

That's right Griff. We're off filling the cap. I don't know, so I don't want to be critical, but what investment has Dylan Matthews brought in? No doubt the stand is impressive, but the product on offer isn't.
Every time we think we're making progress, it all goes pear shaped again!

I can't believe nobody has said this but isn't Wales Online just hte Western Fail's website? And every season they tend to link the star fly half from one of the regions to the Blues, and so far I can't really think of it happening. Well unless you count Sweeney as a star fly half.

I can understand why Tovey may want to join the Blues, but personally I would rather see him stick it out with the Dragons. They are far from being a developement region, and to be honest Wales doesn't need a developement region, that is what the Prem is for.

I think he may be tempted because I think he would start for the Blues.

I dont think there is such a thing as a development region anymore. Even Connacht are being strengthened.

In truth though there will always be teams that are stronger and teams which are weaker.

The Salary Cap will stop to much poaching though as most squads wont free up major packages easily and in most cases they will likely to use any surplus cash to retain current internationals.

Dont expect any news though until March as the Regions are still being audited and result wont be published until then so they wont know exactly what cash is available until the WRU sign off on the books. This is why Gethin and Adam havent signed anything with anyone else. They are waiting to see whats happening in March and what kind of offers they get from the Blues and Ospreys. Providing they are good ones they both will probably stay. Bennett might be off though.

That's right Griff. We're off filling the cap. I don't know, so I don't want to be critical, but what investment has Dylan Matthews brought in? No doubt the stand is impressive, but the product on offer isn't.

I think Dylan Matthews was brought in to oversee the corporate side of RP. He's there for B2B type expertise. But you're right MOG they have all missed the most important factor in the whole re-development of RP. The actual team! The team has been VERY poor this year and thus we are going to suffer in terms of income. Sponsorship, players leaving - fans leaving it's all at the decrement to the club. D matthews may be able to run his dads golf course but I don't think he knows much about the running of a rugby franchise!

Scarlet. I'm not sure. It's on the back of the SW Argus too. As soon as anyone starts showing promise the vultures start circling. I think Lewis Evans will go too and possibly even Brew.

Has Lewis Evans signed a contract?

I believe Lewis Evans is still under contract into next season so he wont be going.

Griff wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:If this does all happen then good luck to him, he is exactly the player the Blues desperately need.

The Dragons need to focus on talented players like Steffan Jones to replace him and not buy some useless over paid player like Parks. Their previous acquisition of players like Joe Bedford, are not good signs for their vision of recruitment.

Maesteg, why focus on the one or two 'foreign' players we've brought in (Chavanga and Tuilagi are the others), but ignore the fact that we've brought through so many more local young players: Jason Tovey has come through, Steffan Jones, Jonathan Evans, Lewis Robling, Sam Parry, Nathan Buck, Nathan Williams, Adam Hughes, Tovy Faletau, Dan Way (OK English, but will be Welsh qualified in a season or 2), Rhys Buckley, Phil Price, Lewis Evans, Tom Brown. All young welsh lads (or project players - Dan Way) playing week in week out who've been brought through or brought back from England in the last season or 2, but all you can do is point to Joe Bedford. Give it a rest.

Griff sorry please don't miss understand me, what i was referencing is exactly that the Dragons have encouraged and developed some wonderful players and I would hope that they do exactly that and not but in a poor foreigner.

There is so many players qualifying from the academies at the moment that the regions are almost over burdened with options. Long may it continue and I pray that it is sustainable.

I would be very angry if the Dragons signed a non Welsh player to cover for the potential loss of Tovey and recent loss of Matthew Jones.

Which experienced decent Welsh 10s are avaliable at the moment who we could afford and want to play for a bottom of the League club though ?

Shingler ?

Ceiron Thomas?

Shings is in contract for another season I believe.

Maybe Aled Thomas from the Scarlets would go back to you guys? Think we've only got him short term from London Welsh. He's a handy player though, so I wouldn't be happy to lose him.

As a blues fan YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS

an actual flyhalf who can pass and kick!!!!!!!!!!!!

im really hoping these rumours are true (sorry dragons fans! genuinely)

Im assuming Steffan Jones is expected to step up and the Dragons will bring in another welsh youngster (one of Newton/Evans/Thomas perhaps)

Would youngsters at other regions want to come to us though? If they're half decent then they must have ambitions of playing HC rugby with their own region. That only really leaves players in the Dragons region. Steffan Jones is one, Lewis Robling has played a lot at 10. Anyone know of any other good 10s in the region?

Thing is, there's no point promoting them if they're no good!

Comfort.
Wait until you see him tackle!!! You may not be so pleased. In fairness to Tovey, time is on his side and potentially he could be the best in Wales. I think he's ahead of Priestland for his age.
I'm genuinely disappointed unlike when we lost Sweeney.

I think us Dragons fans need to wake up and realise that again the board have fed us lies. I'm actually astonished that the new stand is up and was on time, but on the field we were promised to big hitters!! Chavhanga and Tuilagi. To go with that we've lost Tovey, Charteris and potentially Brew. We just won't get that quality in Wales so will we look overseas? I hope not, but again ot looks like we'll end up with the cast offs!!

The Dragons are living off the scraps that are thrown to them by the other 3 regions who are feasting at the top table.

I'm seriously questioning whether to renew my season ticket. We wont even have the pleasure of beating the Ospreys at this rate.

Sorry I was getting carried away there. We'll always beat the Ospreys!!!

manofgwent wrote:Comfort.
Wait until you see him tackle!!! You may not be so pleased. In fairness to Tovey, time is on his side and potentially he could be the best in Wales. I think he's ahead of Priestland for his age.
I'm genuinely disappointed unlike when we lost Sweeney.

Tackling could be any worse than Parks - At least Tovey is made of flesh, I think Parks is just a stiff breeze trying to stop the opposition.

If this story is true - and I'm not inclined to believe what Western Fail journalists say - and we ended up with Matthew Morgan next season, would that be such a bad thing?

One other thing: I thought the Blues were skint. Where have they found the money to sign him?

I would love that Luckless but why would he leave the Ospreys now that he's getting game time?

Hes class...he has the swag and skillset to be the welsh 10 at the next world cup.

Im disapointed with Jason but the board must take some flak here...

Either bring in C Contracts or call us the Dragons Development!

Its no joke that we win all our home derbys when he plays (he went off early v the scarlets...n check the rest its been true for about 3 years)

I guess the lure of H.CUP rugby, bigger wage and the obvious good press he will now get for being a blue is to much to turn down...
Seriously, this is the player that loves the crowd, has thrown his boots to the hazel terrece and feeds off of us...Whos going to catch his boots in Lego Land? Careful they might land on your prawn sandwiches..

Tovey's been struggling with injury hasn't he?

The way Matthew Morgan's been kicking for touch tonight, maybe we'd be better off without him...

It looks like we will have 3 decent regions while the Dragons act as a feeder club, maybe the the Dragons will be in the same boat as Pontypridd, i.e., support their region in Cardiff and chant Cardiff etc.

If it happens, a good and obvious move for Tovey and the Blues, I suspect more will follow as the old foreign legion at the Blues move on Rush, Molatika, Parks.

glamorganalun wrote:It looks like we will have 3 decent regions while the Dragons act as a feeder club

You're concluding this on the basis of one signing that hasn't even been confirmed yet?

Yes, the Dragons are the lowest-placed region this season; but a couple of seasons ago it was the Scarlets. Did anyone suggest then that they should become a 'feeder club?'

manofgwent wrote:I think us Dragons fans need to wake up and realise that again the board have fed us lies. I'm actually astonished that the new stand is up and was on time, but on the field we were promised to big hitters!! Chavhanga and Tuilagi. To go with that we've lost Tovey, Charteris and potentially Brew. We just won't get that quality in Wales so will we look overseas? I hope not, but again ot looks like we'll end up with the cast offs!!

The Dragons are living off the scraps that are thrown to them by the other 3 regions who are feasting at the top table.

I'm seriously questioning whether to renew my season ticket. We wont even have the pleasure of beating the Ospreys at this rate.

Sorry I was getting carried away there. We'll always beat the Ospreys!!!

MOG.
So you think the board has fed you lies eh? Now you have an idea what it's been like for Cardiff supporters because we've been fed big stinking ones with knobs on for a long time.
However I do understand why you feel a bit disillusioned. I would feel the same way, but I wouldn't pack in your season ticket as you have a good thing going on at Dave as far as I can see. The potential is there for it to work, it's a fantastic ground and the fans like it. That's a good formula and miles ahead of what Cardiff Blues have at present.
As i'm typing this Rick O'Shea on S4C has just commented on the Cardiff City stadium rental agreement. Well done Rick.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

One other thing: I thought the Blues were skint. Where have they found the money to sign him?

Cardiff are totally skint and are surviving on loans from you know who. It is rumoured that the latest accounts to be published at the end of February will show that the club lost over £2,000,000 for that financial year meaning that their overall debt would have increased to......in excess of £7,000,000. This is why many Cardiff supporters will not attend CCS.
Something for Newport Gwent Dragons fans to think about. Cherish what you have and come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who puts your team in jeopardy.

So you're saying that, essentially, the WRU are buying one region's player for another region who can't otherwise afford him?

Impossible Standards wrote:

That's right Griff. We're off filling the cap. I don't know, so I don't want to be critical, but what investment has Dylan Matthews brought in? No doubt the stand is impressive, but the product on offer isn't.

I think Dylan Matthews was brought in to oversee the corporate side of RP. He's there for B2B type expertise. But you're right MOG they have all missed the most important factor in the whole re-development of RP. The actual team! The team has been VERY poor this year and thus we are going to suffer in terms of income. Sponsorship, players leaving - fans leaving it's all at the decrement to the club. D matthews may be able to run his dads golf course but I don't think he knows much about the running of a rugby franchise!

Dylan Matthews is not running a rugby franchise, he oversees the coporate activities that brings in much needed income - you seemed to point this out yourself & then slag the man off for something he is not resposible for

If this is true and if anyone at RP had any sense at all they'd drop Tovey for the remainder of the season. We need to throw Steffan in at 10 now and let him make mistakes and learn from them for the remainder of a season where we pretty much have nothing to play for and get him ready for 2012/13.
And I agree with MOG and the guy on the Fail comments, I don't think I'll be able to cheer for Tovey again, Wales shirt included.
Jason is a kid who is genuinely loved by the fans at RP, it's sad to think that if he goes to Lego town he will just be another Dan Biggar to us.

RuckingFlanker86 wrote:If this is true and if anyone at RP had any sense at all they'd drop Tovey for the remainder of the season. We need to throw Steffan in at 10 now and let him make mistakes and learn from them for the remainder of a season where we pretty much have nothing to play for and get him ready for 2012/13.
And I agree with MOG and the guy on the Fail comments, I don't think I'll be able to cheer for Tovey again, Wales shirt included.
Jason is a kid who is genuinely loved by the fans at RP, it's sad to think that if he goes to Lego town he will just be another Dan Biggar to us.

Give Tovey a break. Maybe he's doing what's best for him and you can't criticise him for that.

Even though there have been rumours for a while that Tovey would end up at the Blues, I kind of thought he'd have stayed a bit longer. This was touted as his big season to push on and he has only had a few stand out games. Maybe he's been unhappy or maybe he knew he'd be leaving, but I'd have liked to see him reach a higher standard before he left. I'm surprised that he's gone to the Blues, just because he seemed to love the rivalry and knew how much it meant for the fans to beat the Blues. He also spoke of how he'd like to get a last minute drop goal to beat them.
I do think he'll miss the best atmosphere in Wales, but on the other hand he went to see the Devils play the other night and said the atmosphere was awesome, so at least he can go there to sample some passion

I wish him all the best. Disappointed really, but then we have to we can develop again in Robling and Jones. I didn't think he would move if I'm honest, but it must be doing his head in watching his Welsh chances pass him by a little.

Really hope he beats the Dragons points scoring record before he goes though. Hate seeing Sweeney as having that honour still.

If he was dropped it would only be to get Jones up to scratch for next season, not as punishment. Should we use him for the Kaaaaarrrdifffff re match ?

He wasn't dropped. It was a LV cup match for christs sake

Munk. It'll be interesting to see what happens. When Bearman announced he was leaving this time last year, he barely featured even when Lydiate was playing in the 6n's. Steffan had a superb game for Keys to beat the Scarlets and there gave been calls for him to get more game time anyway.
You know that Darren Edwards will always give youth a chance. It's so frustrating that we develop players and in Tovey's case begin to develop players and they leave. The problem we've got is that we're a team with youngsters and has beens. Our 2nd row of Sidoli and Adam Jones. Both in their 30's. Our back row. Faletau, Lydiate and Gav Thomas. One of our few players to reach potential is Charteris and now he's finally made his mark after years of ridicule he too is off. We love Toby and Lydiate, but just how good we'll these 2 be in 6 or 7 years time. World class, but playing elsewhere.
Something has to change. No more 3 year plans. A bigger vision. Did anybody see how Perpignan were marketing James Hook? The same has happened with Phillips at Bayonne. Toby Faletau is such an obvious player to sell. There will be people who have a passing interest in rugby who watch the 6 nations who are from the Newport area who wouldn't know he plays for the Dragons. When we beat the Blues last year, speaking to some of their fans afterwards they hadn't really seem him play before and we're amazed at how good he was. Nothing really has changed at RP. It's very very amateurish. You can bet your life that the WRU will know how to make money by using him.

manofgwent wrote:Toby Faletau is such an obvious player to sell. There will be people who have a passing interest in rugby who watch the 6 nations who are from the Newport area who wouldn't know he plays for the Dragons.

I bet that's true. The Six Nations would be the perfect time for the Dragons to put up some billboard posters and change that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16769664.stm

Slightly more credible now, verbal agreement so far.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:One other thing: I thought the Blues were skint. Where have they found the money to sign him?

Cardiff Dave wrote:Cardiff are totally skint and are surviving on loans from you know who. It is rumoured that the latest accounts to be published at the end of February will show that the club lost over £2,000,000 for that financial year meaning that their overall debt would have increased to......in excess of £7,000,000. This is why many Cardiff supporters will not attend CCS.
Something for Newport Gwent Dragons fans to think about. Cherish what you have and come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who puts your team in jeopardy.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:So you're saying that, essentially, the WRU are buying one region's player for another region who can't otherwise afford him?

No, we can afford him because we got guys like Rush, Parks, Tika, Nugget and various others which we won't have to budget for next year. Rush & Nugget alone will free up £500,000 a year or there about and with others leaving, there will be money to bring in players who will replace them but will, at this point in time, be cheaper

Anyone know when Lydiate's contract is up?

Just heard that he wants to play alongside Warburton apparently...

Hmmmm

wales606 wrote:Anyone know when Lydiate's contract is up?

Just heard that he wants to play alongside Warburton apparently...

Hmmmm

Lydiate, Warburton, Delve


Sounds good to me